<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Food vs. fuel debate, German edition]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Erik Hoffner http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:29:52 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/1 well yeah

Yeah, that's a pretty dumb thing to say...she's half right, though, in that one of the drivers in the food supply issue is the growing middle classes in India, Asia, South America, formerly largely vegetarian, which are starting to eat meat whenever they want to, and that is pretty often. And it's taking a lot of grain to grow all that meat.

Erik

The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,200+ grassroots groups working for conservation & more

]]> well yeah

Yeah, that's a pretty dumb thing to say...she's half right, though, in that one of the drivers in the food supply issue is the growing middle classes in India, Asia, South America, formerly largely vegetarian, which are starting to eat meat whenever they want to, and that is pretty often. And it's taking a lot of grain to grow all that meat.

Erik

The Orion Grassroots Network: 1,200+ grassroots groups working for conservation & more

]]> Comment #2 by jpgmnp http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:25:07 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/2 4th meal

hmmm...reminds me of that gross 'fourth meal' commercial for taco bell (a 4th meal which, i am guessing, consists of corn, rice, beans AND meat).

]]> 4th meal

hmmm...reminds me of that gross 'fourth meal' commercial for taco bell (a 4th meal which, i am guessing, consists of corn, rice, beans AND meat).

]]> Comment #3 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:10:09 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/3 If Merkel said that above:

I'm shocked.....horrified.....and hope she is totally alone in her opinion in Europe!

However, her nation pales to insignificance when it comes to the thoughtless abuse of auto-fuels in the USA.  
Many Americans would wish to continue driving grossly  non-functional; huge; unnecessary great chunks of iron; gas-guzzlers, (Long a huge joke in the rest of the World),  so consequently if there is something true in the hypothesis of "Peak Fuel" then there is clearly an urgent need in the American psyche for bio-fuels to be advanced, by the most "advanced" nation on Earth.

After-all, it only needs a bit of a wobble in the crude-oil suppliers around the World, and it does not matter that Americans buy it in gallons, whereas in all of the world elsewhere it comes in litres, like buying the more treasured milk, (That's about a quarter gallon, or a quart).  In USA, auto-fuel could yet get as dear as it already is in Europe!  (Over there it is currently heavily taxed and considered a valuable resource.)   Contrarily in the USA, it is apparently considered a given right to take from the apparently diminishing supply in the rest of the world.

You know; for example; although Bush "secured" Iraqi oil; that is not evident yet......just watch this space for possible developments, that may not be controllable by USA aircraft carriers and/or cruise missiles whatever!

Non importa:

In that world out there, MILLIONS suffer awfully and MILLIONS die, leaving their MILLIONS MORE loved ones in GRIEF from quiet simple things like not having dehydration salts costing a few cents per child, or clean drinking water, or no electricity for cooking.

So try cooking your several meals each day burning twigs or goat or dog-turds from your garden.   See how you go, breathing-in the smoke from the fire!

]]> If Merkel said that above:

I'm shocked.....horrified.....and hope she is totally alone in her opinion in Europe!

However, her nation pales to insignificance when it comes to the thoughtless abuse of auto-fuels in the USA.  
Many Americans would wish to continue driving grossly  non-functional; huge; unnecessary great chunks of iron; gas-guzzlers, (Long a huge joke in the rest of the World),  so consequently if there is something true in the hypothesis of "Peak Fuel" then there is clearly an urgent need in the American psyche for bio-fuels to be advanced, by the most "advanced" nation on Earth.

After-all, it only needs a bit of a wobble in the crude-oil suppliers around the World, and it does not matter that Americans buy it in gallons, whereas in all of the world elsewhere it comes in litres, like buying the more treasured milk, (That's about a quarter gallon, or a quart).  In USA, auto-fuel could yet get as dear as it already is in Europe!  (Over there it is currently heavily taxed and considered a valuable resource.)   Contrarily in the USA, it is apparently considered a given right to take from the apparently diminishing supply in the rest of the world.

You know; for example; although Bush "secured" Iraqi oil; that is not evident yet......just watch this space for possible developments, that may not be controllable by USA aircraft carriers and/or cruise missiles whatever!

Non importa:

In that world out there, MILLIONS suffer awfully and MILLIONS die, leaving their MILLIONS MORE loved ones in GRIEF from quiet simple things like not having dehydration salts costing a few cents per child, or clean drinking water, or no electricity for cooking.

So try cooking your several meals each day burning twigs or goat or dog-turds from your garden.   See how you go, breathing-in the smoke from the fire!

]]> Comment #4 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:22:20 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/4 Oh, and I forgot to mention:

Those Millions in poverty out there are not helped when food prices double.

Good on the French government, with President Sarkovy pledging to help with a basic thing called FOOD assistance to the starving.

You know, that stuff found routinely in pantries in other wealthy nations.

HELLO governments of wealthy nations, wherefore art thou?

]]> Oh, and I forgot to mention:

Those Millions in poverty out there are not helped when food prices double.

Good on the French government, with President Sarkovy pledging to help with a basic thing called FOOD assistance to the starving.

You know, that stuff found routinely in pantries in other wealthy nations.

HELLO governments of wealthy nations, wherefore art thou?

]]> Comment #5 by Jonas http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:25:32 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/5 She's right

Biofuels have made food cheaper - or better: less expensive than if we were not to use biofuels.

Biofuels take up less than 1.5% of the global arable land base, and less than 1% of all food produced.

On the other hand, food prices have shot up by 70 to more than 180%.

The reasons are well known: high oil prices, the low dollar, speculation, a rush into commodities, and growing demand for meat and grains in rapidly developing countries.

Even the price of cacao has shot up by 80%. Nothing to do with biofuels.

The truth is that biofuels have, in certain countries, seriously lowered general inflation (including food prices), benefiting the poor. Especially in Brazil this is the case.

But notwithstanding these basic facts, it will be difficult to teach the basics of food economics to the people at large. The simpleton idea that "biofuels take away food" will always win.

It's sad, because, as the WorldWatch Institute has shown, biofuels can effectively solve world hunger. But that's too counter-intuitive and complex.

]]> She's right

Biofuels have made food cheaper - or better: less expensive than if we were not to use biofuels.

Biofuels take up less than 1.5% of the global arable land base, and less than 1% of all food produced.

On the other hand, food prices have shot up by 70 to more than 180%.

The reasons are well known: high oil prices, the low dollar, speculation, a rush into commodities, and growing demand for meat and grains in rapidly developing countries.

Even the price of cacao has shot up by 80%. Nothing to do with biofuels.

The truth is that biofuels have, in certain countries, seriously lowered general inflation (including food prices), benefiting the poor. Especially in Brazil this is the case.

But notwithstanding these basic facts, it will be difficult to teach the basics of food economics to the people at large. The simpleton idea that "biofuels take away food" will always win.

It's sad, because, as the WorldWatch Institute has shown, biofuels can effectively solve world hunger. But that's too counter-intuitive and complex.

]]> Comment #6 by Tom Philpott http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:34:32 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/6 True, Erik....

...no doubt the food price surge stems from a "perfect storm": sudden hikes in EU/US biofuel production, drought in Australia, higher energy prices, growing meat consumption in India/China, the investor rush to commodities after the real-estate bubble burst.

Still, it's a bit much for a well-fed German to talk about the "second meal" in India as if it were an extravagance, and defend her nation's biofuel mandates as perfectly normal and even "green." Of course, per capita, Germans consume many more food calories, and higher on the food chain, than Indians.

Victual Reality

]]> True, Erik....

...no doubt the food price surge stems from a "perfect storm": sudden hikes in EU/US biofuel production, drought in Australia, higher energy prices, growing meat consumption in India/China, the investor rush to commodities after the real-estate bubble burst.

Still, it's a bit much for a well-fed German to talk about the "second meal" in India as if it were an extravagance, and defend her nation's biofuel mandates as perfectly normal and even "green." Of course, per capita, Germans consume many more food calories, and higher on the food chain, than Indians.

Victual Reality

]]> Comment #7 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:26:42 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/7 Making up a story just for fun:

Tom Philpott continued his lead article spin, by adding to it with a post:

"...Still, it's a bit much for a well-fed German [Angela Merkel] to talk about the "second meal" in India as if it were an extravagance, and defend her nation's biofuel mandates as perfectly normal and even "green." Of course, per capita, Germans consume many more food calories, and higher on the food chain, than Indians."

Ok Tom, you gave a reference to a Reuters article  "...Bad Food Policy...".  I've now read it several times.  Where do you get your interpretation?   Surely, Merkel is saying that the newly developing countries are beginning to "catch-up" with the expectations and normalcy of the "comfortably developed" countries!  What is your agenda here?  Do you have some other references that reflect what you say of her?

BTW, I have no German blood or other vested interest in that country.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are some sickening numbers concerning oil consumed around the World, which hopefully will put things into a more rational perspective:

USA:  20,730,000 bbl/day  (~25% of the world usage)  (0.068 per capita)
China: 6,534,000 bbl/day
India:  2,450,000 bbl/day
The World:   82,234,918 bbl/day

Ref: Germany: 2,650,000 bbl/day   (0,032 per capita...less than half of the USA)
Ref: UK: 1,827,000 bbl/day   (0.030 per capita; less still)

Re:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil- ...

Population Clocks
U.S. 303,917,023   (~4.6% of the World)....(~12.5% of India + China)
World 6,663,106,867
06:29 GMT (EST+5) Apr 23, 2008

Other sources:  Population of India and China:  ~ 2,450,000
Germany  ~82.5 million (2004), projected 80.3 million by 2015.
UK   60,943,912 (July 2008 CIA est.)

Let us imagine a future when Americans suddenly awake to the possibility that oil-in-ground may not be able to keep-up with increasing World demand.  Furthermore, that aircraft carriers and cruise missiles will not be able to ensure a "fair share" of it for them!  (And, that some peoples in this shared World, whom "own" it, do NOT LIKE such attitudes)

Let us imagine a future when Americans suddenly awake to the fact that other developed nations of high "life quality" use roughly half the amount of oil per capita!  Will they ask why?

Whatever, there currently seems to be an urgent need to develop bio-fuels, despite some negative aspects that may be attached to them.

Try to imagine how American life-style would be affected if auto fuel became as scarce as hen's teeth!

Oh yes, that's right; plug-in electrical cars.   Just dig-up more coal to make the electricity to power them, and put-in a bit of infrastructure here and there, whilst trying to catch-up on other crumbling infrastructure like concrete bridges etc

Still, the bridges need not be so strong, because most cars will start to get really really small, apart from the odd  "look-at-me" Hummer/Humvee (?) with several tonnes of batteries aboard.

Say, what is the greatest threat to our consumerism lifestyles:

A)  A hypothesised small temperature rise in some places, accompanied by gradual sea level rises with pre-emptive coastal defences to be developed over the decades.

OR

B)  A hypothetical but more evident calamity with diminishing oil-in-ground?

And that's without discussing any politics!











]]> Making up a story just for fun:

Tom Philpott continued his lead article spin, by adding to it with a post:

"...Still, it's a bit much for a well-fed German [Angela Merkel] to talk about the "second meal" in India as if it were an extravagance, and defend her nation's biofuel mandates as perfectly normal and even "green." Of course, per capita, Germans consume many more food calories, and higher on the food chain, than Indians."

Ok Tom, you gave a reference to a Reuters article  "...Bad Food Policy...".  I've now read it several times.  Where do you get your interpretation?   Surely, Merkel is saying that the newly developing countries are beginning to "catch-up" with the expectations and normalcy of the "comfortably developed" countries!  What is your agenda here?  Do you have some other references that reflect what you say of her?

BTW, I have no German blood or other vested interest in that country.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here are some sickening numbers concerning oil consumed around the World, which hopefully will put things into a more rational perspective:

USA:  20,730,000 bbl/day  (~25% of the world usage)  (0.068 per capita)
China: 6,534,000 bbl/day
India:  2,450,000 bbl/day
The World:   82,234,918 bbl/day

Ref: Germany: 2,650,000 bbl/day   (0,032 per capita...less than half of the USA)
Ref: UK: 1,827,000 bbl/day   (0.030 per capita; less still)

Re:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil- ...

Population Clocks
U.S. 303,917,023   (~4.6% of the World)....(~12.5% of India + China)
World 6,663,106,867
06:29 GMT (EST+5) Apr 23, 2008

Other sources:  Population of India and China:  ~ 2,450,000
Germany  ~82.5 million (2004), projected 80.3 million by 2015.
UK   60,943,912 (July 2008 CIA est.)

Let us imagine a future when Americans suddenly awake to the possibility that oil-in-ground may not be able to keep-up with increasing World demand.  Furthermore, that aircraft carriers and cruise missiles will not be able to ensure a "fair share" of it for them!  (And, that some peoples in this shared World, whom "own" it, do NOT LIKE such attitudes)

Let us imagine a future when Americans suddenly awake to the fact that other developed nations of high "life quality" use roughly half the amount of oil per capita!  Will they ask why?

Whatever, there currently seems to be an urgent need to develop bio-fuels, despite some negative aspects that may be attached to them.

Try to imagine how American life-style would be affected if auto fuel became as scarce as hen's teeth!

Oh yes, that's right; plug-in electrical cars.   Just dig-up more coal to make the electricity to power them, and put-in a bit of infrastructure here and there, whilst trying to catch-up on other crumbling infrastructure like concrete bridges etc

Still, the bridges need not be so strong, because most cars will start to get really really small, apart from the odd  "look-at-me" Hummer/Humvee (?) with several tonnes of batteries aboard.

Say, what is the greatest threat to our consumerism lifestyles:

A)  A hypothesised small temperature rise in some places, accompanied by gradual sea level rises with pre-emptive coastal defences to be developed over the decades.

OR

B)  A hypothetical but more evident calamity with diminishing oil-in-ground?

And that's without discussing any politics!











]]> Comment #8 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Sun, 27 Apr 2008 20:20:52 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/8 Tom Philpott has a responsibility

He raised a topic for discussion
At a mere total of seven posts, he is faced with some difficult questions.
Five and more days later he has remained silent on those difficult (for him) questions.
Meanwhile he has inititiated new topics for discussion elswhere!

What sort of a blog is this?
A lead author only talks if everyone is in agreement with him?....WHAT!



]]> Tom Philpott has a responsibility

He raised a topic for discussion
At a mere total of seven posts, he is faced with some difficult questions.
Five and more days later he has remained silent on those difficult (for him) questions.
Meanwhile he has inititiated new topics for discussion elswhere!

What sort of a blog is this?
A lead author only talks if everyone is in agreement with him?....WHAT!



]]> Comment #9 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Mon, 26 May 2008 17:49:24 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/9 Tom Philpott has a responsibility 2

He raised a topic for discussion

At a mere total of seven posts, he is faced with some difficult questions.

Long after he has remained silent on those difficult (for him) questions.

Meanwhile he has inititiated new topics for discussion elswhere!

What sort of a blog is this?
A lead author only talks if everyone is in agreement with him?....WHAT!


]]> Tom Philpott has a responsibility 2

He raised a topic for discussion

At a mere total of seven posts, he is faced with some difficult questions.

Long after he has remained silent on those difficult (for him) questions.

Meanwhile he has inititiated new topics for discussion elswhere!

What sort of a blog is this?
A lead author only talks if everyone is in agreement with him?....WHAT!


]]> Comment #10 by Black Wallaby http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Sat, 31 May 2008 18:31:09 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/10 Tom Philpott

YOU raised this thread.
Do you not like the issues with which do not fit your church views?

]]> Tom Philpott

YOU raised this thread.
Do you not like the issues with which do not fit your church views?

]]> Comment #11 by Ron Steenblik http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/ Sat, 31 May 2008 18:41:19 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/let-them-eat-biofuel/11 Black Wallaby

It would be helpful if you could itemize what questions you feel have remained unanswered.

These are only my personal opinions.

]]> Black Wallaby

It would be helpful if you could itemize what questions you feel have remained unanswered.

These are only my personal opinions.

]]>