<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Learning to love Wal-Mart]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by kmp http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:29:47 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/1 and yet...

Scott really does sound like a born-again greenie.  I never thought I would see the day when he would say:

There can't be anything good about putting chemicals in these rivers in Third World countries so that somebody can buy an item for less money in a developed country. Those things are just inherently wrong, whether you are an environmentalist or not.

And yet, in today's NYT:

After months of fevered lobbying and bitter debate, the Chicago City Council passed a groundbreaking ordinance yesterday requiring "big box" stores, like Wal-Mart and Home Depot, to pay a minimum wage of $10 an hour by 2010, along with at least $3 an hour worth of benefits.

WalMart's response:

"It's sad -- this puts politics ahead of working men and women," John Simley, a Wal-Mart spokesman, said in a telephone interview. "It means that Chicago is closed to business."

Wal-Mart will still open its nearly completed branch on Chicago's West Side in September -- the company's first store in the city -- but any future plans "will likely change," Mr. Simley said.

It just doesn't seem to make sense, does it?  On the one hand, they are determined to save the environment, and seem to be implementing plans to not only do so, but force their suppliers to do so.  On the other hand, by all reports, they treat their employees like indentured servants.

It doesn't quite add up.

]]> and yet...

Scott really does sound like a born-again greenie.  I never thought I would see the day when he would say:

There can't be anything good about putting chemicals in these rivers in Third World countries so that somebody can buy an item for less money in a developed country. Those things are just inherently wrong, whether you are an environmentalist or not.

And yet, in today's NYT:

After months of fevered lobbying and bitter debate, the Chicago City Council passed a groundbreaking ordinance yesterday requiring "big box" stores, like Wal-Mart and Home Depot, to pay a minimum wage of $10 an hour by 2010, along with at least $3 an hour worth of benefits.

WalMart's response:

"It's sad -- this puts politics ahead of working men and women," John Simley, a Wal-Mart spokesman, said in a telephone interview. "It means that Chicago is closed to business."

Wal-Mart will still open its nearly completed branch on Chicago's West Side in September -- the company's first store in the city -- but any future plans "will likely change," Mr. Simley said.

It just doesn't seem to make sense, does it?  On the one hand, they are determined to save the environment, and seem to be implementing plans to not only do so, but force their suppliers to do so.  On the other hand, by all reports, they treat their employees like indentured servants.

It doesn't quite add up.

]]> Comment #2 by smp http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:33:13 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/2 It does add up

The previous comment suggests that Wal Mart's newfound love of the environment doesn't gibe with their labor policies. If you look at life like a Wal Mart executive these two things make perfect sense. It's all about money. Wal Mart doesn't care about the environment like most of the people who read Grist. They care about it because by reducing packaging, miles driven and so forth, they can save money. Meaning they have more money for their corporate coffers and shareholders. Similarly, they don't pay their employees well for the exact same reasons. The ancillary benefits to Wal Mart from going green, such as improved PR, are just icing on the cake. But the bottom line for them is, well, the bottom line.  

]]> It does add up

The previous comment suggests that Wal Mart's newfound love of the environment doesn't gibe with their labor policies. If you look at life like a Wal Mart executive these two things make perfect sense. It's all about money. Wal Mart doesn't care about the environment like most of the people who read Grist. They care about it because by reducing packaging, miles driven and so forth, they can save money. Meaning they have more money for their corporate coffers and shareholders. Similarly, they don't pay their employees well for the exact same reasons. The ancillary benefits to Wal Mart from going green, such as improved PR, are just icing on the cake. But the bottom line for them is, well, the bottom line.  

]]> Comment #3 by Chris Schults http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:39:49 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/3 True ...

... smp, but Wal-Mart CEO is quoted as saying:

To me, there can't be anything good about putting all these chemicals in the air. There can't be anything good about the smog you see in cities. There can't be anything good about putting chemicals in these rivers in Third World countries so that somebody can buy an item for less money in a developed country. Those things are just inherently wrong, whether you are an environmentalist or not.

It sounds like the rationale has moved beyond financial reasons (if you are to believe the above quote is sincere).

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> True ...

... smp, but Wal-Mart CEO is quoted as saying:

To me, there can't be anything good about putting all these chemicals in the air. There can't be anything good about the smog you see in cities. There can't be anything good about putting chemicals in these rivers in Third World countries so that somebody can buy an item for less money in a developed country. Those things are just inherently wrong, whether you are an environmentalist or not.

It sounds like the rationale has moved beyond financial reasons (if you are to believe the above quote is sincere).

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> Comment #4 by Bart Anderson http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:49:34 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/4 Nuance .... Small-Mart

Good news about Wal-Mart. I don't know that one has to fete them as the Great Green Hope, but it is a big step forward. Many problems with Wal-Mart remain: As kmp says, their labor practices are medieval. Their business model is predicated on cheap oil to keep the factories in China humming and to ship and distribute the goods. Wal-Mart feeds the addictive nature of consumerism: buying crap because it's cheap.The arrival of a Wal-Mart threatens the local small businessmen and the social networks  based on them.
Let us take a nuanced position, shall we? It's not the millenium but it is an improvment. This is the way social progress inevitably happens - awkwardly and inconsistently. Two steps forward and one step back.

Joel Makower has a related piece on Michael Shuman (author of the article quoted by David) at WorldChanging: Can 'Small-Mart' Replace Wal-Mart?.
Love it or hate it, a world without ...Wal-Mart would be a different place. But what would replace it?

Small-Mart, perhaps?

That, at least, is the foundation of Michael Shuman's new book, The Small-Mart Revolution. "Small-Mart" refers to locally owned businesses that are, in aggregate, more reliable generators of good jobs, economic growth, tax dollars, community wealth, charitable contributions, social stability, and political participation, according to Shuman.

His very readable and entertaining book makes clear that this "revolution" is about "far more than fighting chain stores." In fact, he says, it is notable as much for what it stands for than what it is against. Shuman is for profit-making businesses, even big ones (under certain circumstances). He is for jobs and, presumably, some reasonable level of consumption. In fact, the only thing for which he is demonstrably against is "the vast web of laws and public policies that directly disadvantage small and local businesses" in favor of large, global ones. Oh, and the global financiers that facilitate this: It's the capital markets, stupid.



]]> Nuance .... Small-Mart

Good news about Wal-Mart. I don't know that one has to fete them as the Great Green Hope, but it is a big step forward. Many problems with Wal-Mart remain: As kmp says, their labor practices are medieval. Their business model is predicated on cheap oil to keep the factories in China humming and to ship and distribute the goods. Wal-Mart feeds the addictive nature of consumerism: buying crap because it's cheap.The arrival of a Wal-Mart threatens the local small businessmen and the social networks  based on them.
Let us take a nuanced position, shall we? It's not the millenium but it is an improvment. This is the way social progress inevitably happens - awkwardly and inconsistently. Two steps forward and one step back.

Joel Makower has a related piece on Michael Shuman (author of the article quoted by David) at WorldChanging: Can 'Small-Mart' Replace Wal-Mart?.
Love it or hate it, a world without ...Wal-Mart would be a different place. But what would replace it?

Small-Mart, perhaps?

That, at least, is the foundation of Michael Shuman's new book, The Small-Mart Revolution. "Small-Mart" refers to locally owned businesses that are, in aggregate, more reliable generators of good jobs, economic growth, tax dollars, community wealth, charitable contributions, social stability, and political participation, according to Shuman.

His very readable and entertaining book makes clear that this "revolution" is about "far more than fighting chain stores." In fact, he says, it is notable as much for what it stands for than what it is against. Shuman is for profit-making businesses, even big ones (under certain circumstances). He is for jobs and, presumably, some reasonable level of consumption. In fact, the only thing for which he is demonstrably against is "the vast web of laws and public policies that directly disadvantage small and local businesses" in favor of large, global ones. Oh, and the global financiers that facilitate this: It's the capital markets, stupid.



]]> Comment #5 by kmp http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:49:38 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/5 Exactly

Chris makes my point, more clearly than I did I guess.

I would not be surprised, nor aghast, if WalMart were undertaking it's latest green moves solely in an effort to protect the bottom line.  I wish that other companies would see that it is not only good for the planet, but good for the pocketbook.  

However, Scott's quote reads like that of a converted prophet - and I wonder whether he is 1) lying, or 2) hasn't yet discovered what is "inherently wrong" about inadequate wages, inadequate health care, discrimination, etc.

]]> Exactly

Chris makes my point, more clearly than I did I guess.

I would not be surprised, nor aghast, if WalMart were undertaking it's latest green moves solely in an effort to protect the bottom line.  I wish that other companies would see that it is not only good for the planet, but good for the pocketbook.  

However, Scott's quote reads like that of a converted prophet - and I wonder whether he is 1) lying, or 2) hasn't yet discovered what is "inherently wrong" about inadequate wages, inadequate health care, discrimination, etc.

]]> Comment #6 by Ammonite http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Fri, 28 Jul 2006 02:30:55 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/6 Greening for Profit

While I am all for sustainable living, reducing food miles, supporting local farmers and protecting the environment etc., this sea-change by WalMart seems a bit too good to be true. The cynical part of me thinks they have decided there is a huge profit to be made from 'greening' their brand. Like most multinational companies, profit is their primary concern and I cannot see how WalMart is any different from McDonalds, Exxon or Haliburton in pursuing increased profit for their shareholders/owners/investors using whatever policies they believe the market will buy into.

"Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money."

]]> Greening for Profit

While I am all for sustainable living, reducing food miles, supporting local farmers and protecting the environment etc., this sea-change by WalMart seems a bit too good to be true. The cynical part of me thinks they have decided there is a huge profit to be made from 'greening' their brand. Like most multinational companies, profit is their primary concern and I cannot see how WalMart is any different from McDonalds, Exxon or Haliburton in pursuing increased profit for their shareholders/owners/investors using whatever policies they believe the market will buy into.

"Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money."

]]> Comment #7 by David Roberts http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Fri, 28 Jul 2006 02:54:46 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/7 I don't understand

Why is it a bad thing if Wal-Mart sees profit in green initiatives? Is the position of the environmental community now not only that Wal-Mart has to go green, but that it has to go green for purely altruistic motives, or it doesn't get any credit?

www.grist.org

]]> I don't understand

Why is it a bad thing if Wal-Mart sees profit in green initiatives? Is the position of the environmental community now not only that Wal-Mart has to go green, but that it has to go green for purely altruistic motives, or it doesn't get any credit?

www.grist.org

]]> Comment #8 by kmp http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Fri, 28 Jul 2006 03:28:54 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/8 Not bad at all

I, for one, think it will be great if WalMart realizes profit from their green intiatives.  What better rebuttal to the many naysayers who bemoan that "preventing global warming will hurt the economy" than to point to any one of WalMart's eco-initiatives and be able to say that it saved them $25 million on the bottom line?

Honestly, I think the news of WalMart's green initiatives is very encouraging and it could end up having huge impact.  My point above is that I feel only guardedly optimistic when I consider that Scott's statements seem to point to a moral reasoning (in addition to bottom line) for deciding to make such sweeping changes.  It just seems suspicious in light of other "moral" failings that the company has no plans to address.

Strangely enough, if profit were the only driver discussed (i.e. Scott announces that they have had consultants to a rigorous review and the following efficiency measures will save million per year) I would be more convinced of the eventual follow through.  And perhaps profit is the main driver, and Scott's moral statements are just greenwashing.

Either way, it won't matter to me as long as WalMart actually carries through with their plans.  If they can make more money doing it, so much the better.

Kaela

]]> Not bad at all

I, for one, think it will be great if WalMart realizes profit from their green intiatives.  What better rebuttal to the many naysayers who bemoan that "preventing global warming will hurt the economy" than to point to any one of WalMart's eco-initiatives and be able to say that it saved them $25 million on the bottom line?

Honestly, I think the news of WalMart's green initiatives is very encouraging and it could end up having huge impact.  My point above is that I feel only guardedly optimistic when I consider that Scott's statements seem to point to a moral reasoning (in addition to bottom line) for deciding to make such sweeping changes.  It just seems suspicious in light of other "moral" failings that the company has no plans to address.

Strangely enough, if profit were the only driver discussed (i.e. Scott announces that they have had consultants to a rigorous review and the following efficiency measures will save million per year) I would be more convinced of the eventual follow through.  And perhaps profit is the main driver, and Scott's moral statements are just greenwashing.

Either way, it won't matter to me as long as WalMart actually carries through with their plans.  If they can make more money doing it, so much the better.

Kaela

]]> Comment #9 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Fri, 28 Jul 2006 05:43:30 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/9 Walmart

Has to go.  Period.  It is acting as a retail monopoly destroying businesses and using slave and serf labor in foreign countries.  Warnings have not worked.  Dissolution is the only way.

It even imports illegal aliens to do contract cleaning in its stores.  Jobs americans would do if wages and working conditions were legal.

It is way past time to quit coddling law breaking corporations.  Use anti-trust laws to bust 'em up and tax and labor laws to confiscate assets.  

Or do corporate "citizens" have special rights?

It seems the baby bells once split up under anti-trust laws have consolidated again.  The law ought to come down on these rogue operators like a ton of bricks.

Industry self-regulation is no regulation.  The corporatist raygun revolution needs to end.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Walmart

Has to go.  Period.  It is acting as a retail monopoly destroying businesses and using slave and serf labor in foreign countries.  Warnings have not worked.  Dissolution is the only way.

It even imports illegal aliens to do contract cleaning in its stores.  Jobs americans would do if wages and working conditions were legal.

It is way past time to quit coddling law breaking corporations.  Use anti-trust laws to bust 'em up and tax and labor laws to confiscate assets.  

Or do corporate "citizens" have special rights?

It seems the baby bells once split up under anti-trust laws have consolidated again.  The law ought to come down on these rogue operators like a ton of bricks.

Industry self-regulation is no regulation.  The corporatist raygun revolution needs to end.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #10 by ffletcher http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Fri, 28 Jul 2006 05:55:26 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/10 Is Wal Mart becoming Wal Green?

No I doubt it, I think they will still be Wal Mart.  I think it is good business to practice good environmental standards, people, both employees and customers, respect it, it is frugal, and it will please God.

Wal Mart has a responsibility to it sharesholders that it does not have the luxury of ignoring without action from its it shareholders.  I doubt that I could go out and sell stock, build up a profitable company, issue more stock, and then take the money and build churches in China.

The two points above are aligned, it is good business to support environmental standards and it is Wal Mart's responsibility to build shareholder wealth according to its corporate By-Laws.  Wal Mart is behaving as many business should perform.  We want companies to practice do this.  This is why we encourage the public to favor such businesses, Wal Mart is doing the that which is in their best interests and it happens to be aligned with ours is not a coincidence.  It is how the public message has been made.

Again we want companies to favor good environmental practices.  We want customers to do business with companies who practice the best environmental results.

Wal Mart has neither heart nor soul

]]> Is Wal Mart becoming Wal Green?

No I doubt it, I think they will still be Wal Mart.  I think it is good business to practice good environmental standards, people, both employees and customers, respect it, it is frugal, and it will please God.

Wal Mart has a responsibility to it sharesholders that it does not have the luxury of ignoring without action from its it shareholders.  I doubt that I could go out and sell stock, build up a profitable company, issue more stock, and then take the money and build churches in China.

The two points above are aligned, it is good business to support environmental standards and it is Wal Mart's responsibility to build shareholder wealth according to its corporate By-Laws.  Wal Mart is behaving as many business should perform.  We want companies to practice do this.  This is why we encourage the public to favor such businesses, Wal Mart is doing the that which is in their best interests and it happens to be aligned with ours is not a coincidence.  It is how the public message has been made.

Again we want companies to favor good environmental practices.  We want customers to do business with companies who practice the best environmental results.

Wal Mart has neither heart nor soul

]]> Comment #11 by elroisees http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Sat, 29 Jul 2006 12:36:44 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/11 Bike Racks at Walmart?

A brand new Super Walmart just opened less than 2 miles from my house.  It doesn't have a bike rack, and there is no way to return all those plastic bags (they used to recycle them if you brought them back).  I emailed their website asking for a bike rack in light of their new focus on environmental responsibility, and they called me back saying they're working on it.  In the mean time, I'm welcome to chain my bike to any post in the parking lot.  

On the whole, a pretty good customer service response I think!  Now we'll see if they put in that rack.  For the bags, I'm bringing my own canvas bags.  We'll see how that goes.

]]> Bike Racks at Walmart?

A brand new Super Walmart just opened less than 2 miles from my house.  It doesn't have a bike rack, and there is no way to return all those plastic bags (they used to recycle them if you brought them back).  I emailed their website asking for a bike rack in light of their new focus on environmental responsibility, and they called me back saying they're working on it.  In the mean time, I'm welcome to chain my bike to any post in the parking lot.  

On the whole, a pretty good customer service response I think!  Now we'll see if they put in that rack.  For the bags, I'm bringing my own canvas bags.  We'll see how that goes.

]]> Comment #12 by mulang http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Sun, 30 Jul 2006 04:02:48 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/12 Strategy

It's good to see that people are keeping up the debate about Walmart's ongoing problematic labor practices, and I think this bears upon the "what's their motivation?" question.

If we question whether Scott has truly found green religion (which I think we should), we ought to expand our analysis of their motives beyond a) cost-savings or b) generic 'greenwashing'. Is it possible these environmental policies are also designed specifically to split the opposition?  I'm sure Walmart would like nothing better than to be able to peel away the 'green collar' contingent (environmentalist, generally white-collar folk, such as most of the people in on this blog, I'm guessing) from the blue collar labor folks whose demands have sofar gone unmet by Walmart. Divide and conquer!  Walmart would have effectively split the solid wall of progressive opposition it has so far faced.

My point here is that we shouldn't necessarily let our verdict on Walmart hinge entirely on that "are they green enough?" question, and remember class and our positions of priviliage and the importance of political solidarity.  

]]> Strategy

It's good to see that people are keeping up the debate about Walmart's ongoing problematic labor practices, and I think this bears upon the "what's their motivation?" question.

If we question whether Scott has truly found green religion (which I think we should), we ought to expand our analysis of their motives beyond a) cost-savings or b) generic 'greenwashing'. Is it possible these environmental policies are also designed specifically to split the opposition?  I'm sure Walmart would like nothing better than to be able to peel away the 'green collar' contingent (environmentalist, generally white-collar folk, such as most of the people in on this blog, I'm guessing) from the blue collar labor folks whose demands have sofar gone unmet by Walmart. Divide and conquer!  Walmart would have effectively split the solid wall of progressive opposition it has so far faced.

My point here is that we shouldn't necessarily let our verdict on Walmart hinge entirely on that "are they green enough?" question, and remember class and our positions of priviliage and the importance of political solidarity.  

]]> Comment #13 by vpcw7 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:34:27 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/13 call a spade a spade

wal-mart is a corporation. corporations are at the mercy of their shareholders and only their shareholders. they are legally bound to profit for their shareholders. this is why ben and jerry's sold out. this is why major corporations can't just 'turn good'. i could go further into the evils of capitalism and the complete and utter contradiction of 'sustainable corporations' but i've been traveling for over 24 hours and am totally exhuasted. i'm not even sure how coherent this post is :)

]]> call a spade a spade

wal-mart is a corporation. corporations are at the mercy of their shareholders and only their shareholders. they are legally bound to profit for their shareholders. this is why ben and jerry's sold out. this is why major corporations can't just 'turn good'. i could go further into the evils of capitalism and the complete and utter contradiction of 'sustainable corporations' but i've been traveling for over 24 hours and am totally exhuasted. i'm not even sure how coherent this post is :)

]]> Comment #14 by bookerly http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/ Mon, 31 Jul 2006 02:29:11 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/learning-to-love-wal-mart/14 Unless Corporations Go Away This Decade

     We should applaud any steps they take in green directions.  This does not mean that we cannot have other criticisms of them.  These can be specific, such as labor issues and size.  Or general, such as "I don't like capitalism".

     However, we should applaud Wal-mart when it does good.  If all corporations adopted green standards, then we would be a long way towards solving the Global Warming problem that is LOOMING!

    And we should applaud them.

    Afterwards (or during (smile) for those of us able to hold two or more contradictory positions at the same time), we continue our struggles around whatever other issues we have.

    But it is dishonest to criticize a practise, then applaud when that criticism is answered.

    Imagine taking a test, getting a failing score, studying hard, getting 100 on the next one, then you are told that it is not enough, your 100 doesn't count.

   Dear FFletcher, there are churches in China, they are just forbidden to get involved in politics.  Apparently for some, believing in God and Jesus, praying, reading  the Bible and trying to follow it aren't enough.  Sigh.

   I really don't care why people work to stop global warming (just as i don't care why they are vegetarians (grin)).  I am happy if they do.

patrick

]]> Unless Corporations Go Away This Decade

     We should applaud any steps they take in green directions.  This does not mean that we cannot have other criticisms of them.  These can be specific, such as labor issues and size.  Or general, such as "I don't like capitalism".

     However, we should applaud Wal-mart when it does good.  If all corporations adopted green standards, then we would be a long way towards solving the Global Warming problem that is LOOMING!

    And we should applaud them.

    Afterwards (or during (smile) for those of us able to hold two or more contradictory positions at the same time), we continue our struggles around whatever other issues we have.

    But it is dishonest to criticize a practise, then applaud when that criticism is answered.

    Imagine taking a test, getting a failing score, studying hard, getting 100 on the next one, then you are told that it is not enough, your 100 doesn't count.

   Dear FFletcher, there are churches in China, they are just forbidden to get involved in politics.  Apparently for some, believing in God and Jesus, praying, reading  the Bible and trying to follow it aren't enough.  Sigh.

   I really don't care why people work to stop global warming (just as i don't care why they are vegetarians (grin)).  I am happy if they do.

patrick

]]>