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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for What is the impact of peak oil and peak coal?]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:19:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>No mistakes, Joseph</strong></p><p>No you laid out some alternatives that seem rational and like any numbers cruncher, I like all numbers equally. I don't believe in "wedges" or whatever you call them, but pressure to obtain less fossil fuel energy as population activity grows 2-3 percent a year certainly will present some major roadblocks.</p><p>
Nature doesn't have wedges or feed-back loops, it just is what it is. I care not what you call the "do-loop" in your computer program.</p><p>
But the real crisis - and I wonder why people aren't seeing it this way - is that we have a dire energy crisis on our hands. Everyone made fun of Jimmy Carter as President because he recommended turning down the thermostat and wearing a sweater. My dad worked with Jimmy for a while and found him to be something of an engineering genius - a liability if you're a politician because Americans hate smart people, especially the doofy ones</p><p>
So here we are again, and this time it is going to hurt three times worse ... maybe get better for a while ... and then go FUBAR. Call it what you want, it simply means that deliveries of fossil fuels like crude oil, natural gas, and coal will start declining based on price, supply, and demand that if graphed go off the map in three directions. Personally, I do not believe in "peak oil" because that is a political buzzword phrase. But we all know the intention and meaning ...

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>No mistakes, Joseph</strong></p><p>No you laid out some alternatives that seem rational and like any numbers cruncher, I like all numbers equally. I don't believe in "wedges" or whatever you call them, but pressure to obtain less fossil fuel energy as population activity grows 2-3 percent a year certainly will present some major roadblocks.</p><p>
Nature doesn't have wedges or feed-back loops, it just is what it is. I care not what you call the "do-loop" in your computer program.</p><p>
But the real crisis - and I wonder why people aren't seeing it this way - is that we have a dire energy crisis on our hands. Everyone made fun of Jimmy Carter as President because he recommended turning down the thermostat and wearing a sweater. My dad worked with Jimmy for a while and found him to be something of an engineering genius - a liability if you're a politician because Americans hate smart people, especially the doofy ones</p><p>
So here we are again, and this time it is going to hurt three times worse ... maybe get better for a while ... and then go FUBAR. Call it what you want, it simply means that deliveries of fossil fuels like crude oil, natural gas, and coal will start declining based on price, supply, and demand that if graphed go off the map in three directions. Personally, I do not believe in "peak oil" because that is a political buzzword phrase. But we all know the intention and meaning ...

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by gmobus</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:55:58 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Needed: A systems science approach<p>At this point it seems to me we know all of the relevant variables, stocks, and flows. We have a handle on most of the interactions and feedbacks. Isn't it time to construct a systems dynamics model that allows us to test these ideas/numbers. Anyone up for it? Its too big for one person to tackle, but a host of interested and qualified people could do so.<p>
From my POV this is the only way we are going to have a hope of finding leverage points to guide the world back to a sustainable system.<p>
<a href="http://questioneverything.typepad.com/" rel="nofollow">George<p>
Visit my <a href="http://faculty.washington.edu/gmobus/" rel="nofollow">academic site as well.

<p>George Mobus, 
Associate Professor, Institute of Technology,
University of Washington Tacoma,
and Professional Student for Life</p></a></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Needed: A systems science approach<p>At this point it seems to me we know all of the relevant variables, stocks, and flows. We have a handle on most of the interactions and feedbacks. Isn't it time to construct a systems dynamics model that allows us to test these ideas/numbers. Anyone up for it? Its too big for one person to tackle, but a host of interested and qualified people could do so.<p>
From my POV this is the only way we are going to have a hope of finding leverage points to guide the world back to a sustainable system.<p>
<a href="http://questioneverything.typepad.com/" rel="nofollow">George<p>
Visit my <a href="http://faculty.washington.edu/gmobus/" rel="nofollow">academic site as well.

<p>George Mobus, 
Associate Professor, Institute of Technology,
University of Washington Tacoma,
and Professional Student for Life</p></a></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Capster</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 12:42:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Peak anything</strong></p><p>Joe, I'm with you on most of this stuff, certainly I agree with the broad theories you advance. &nbsp;But I question peak oil and coal - we've been hearing about peak oil for decades. &nbsp;What happens? &nbsp;Oil technology gets better (horizontal drilling, shale oil, tar sands, etc.) and whammo, the peak is pushed off. &nbsp;I suspect the same would be true for some crafty coal companies - if the price is right, they'll get the damn coal. &nbsp;It's not a pretty thought, but it is the historical truth. &nbsp;</p><p>
Moreover, your scenario leaves out many alternatives, which I firmly believe will be in play in 2020 - fuel cells, solar thermal, geothermal, etc. etc. - all of which you know, since you post on this stuff regularly. &nbsp;Both distributed gen and centralized gen technologies will improve. &nbsp;So while your models are fine with the many assumptions you make, they ignore a lot of stuff. &nbsp;I'm not sure you can draw a conclusion when so much is left out of the analysis. &nbsp;Perhaps you have plans to address this in future posts. &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>Peak anything</strong></p><p>Joe, I'm with you on most of this stuff, certainly I agree with the broad theories you advance. &nbsp;But I question peak oil and coal - we've been hearing about peak oil for decades. &nbsp;What happens? &nbsp;Oil technology gets better (horizontal drilling, shale oil, tar sands, etc.) and whammo, the peak is pushed off. &nbsp;I suspect the same would be true for some crafty coal companies - if the price is right, they'll get the damn coal. &nbsp;It's not a pretty thought, but it is the historical truth. &nbsp;</p><p>
Moreover, your scenario leaves out many alternatives, which I firmly believe will be in play in 2020 - fuel cells, solar thermal, geothermal, etc. etc. - all of which you know, since you post on this stuff regularly. &nbsp;Both distributed gen and centralized gen technologies will improve. &nbsp;So while your models are fine with the many assumptions you make, they ignore a lot of stuff. &nbsp;I'm not sure you can draw a conclusion when so much is left out of the analysis. &nbsp;Perhaps you have plans to address this in future posts. &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by bigTom</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:14:36 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/4</guid>
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				<p><strong> Maybe not formal peak, but supply constrained</strong></p><p>&nbsp; We may not be at the original definition of peak oil, 50% of all recoverable oil gone, or possibly not even at the more recent definition, maximum production rate, but its looks like the future of fossil fuels is supply constrained. If we look around the world the past few months have seen power problems, often related to coal plants in South Africa, Pakistan, China, and much of SE Asia. It does look like at least for the better grades, that coal supply can't meet demand. Given the massive expansion of vehicle ownership in the developing world, which is likely to substantially accelerate with the &nbsp;$2500 Tata Nano, even if oil production can be raised to say 95MBpd (we are currently at 87), the price is almost certainly going to be bid up even higher. </p><p>
&nbsp; I don't think the naysayers understand the fact that oil (and other resources) tend to be distributed in a manner such that the difficulty of extraction follows a log normal distribution. That means that the difficulty of extraction can vary by orders of magnitude from field to field. The easier deposits get developed first. With oil the problem is not that we've used up 50%, but rather that the easiest 40% was much much easier to extract than the rest. If the new stuff was only two or three times as tough as the easy stuff, technology could readily cope, but I think it is probably more like 50 times tougher. Given finite oil field development resources, especially of experienced personell, it may not be possible to maintain current production rates. Reserves may sound big on paper, but if we can't get at it quickly enough, scarcity pricing will prevail.</p>
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				<p><strong> Maybe not formal peak, but supply constrained</strong></p><p>&nbsp; We may not be at the original definition of peak oil, 50% of all recoverable oil gone, or possibly not even at the more recent definition, maximum production rate, but its looks like the future of fossil fuels is supply constrained. If we look around the world the past few months have seen power problems, often related to coal plants in South Africa, Pakistan, China, and much of SE Asia. It does look like at least for the better grades, that coal supply can't meet demand. Given the massive expansion of vehicle ownership in the developing world, which is likely to substantially accelerate with the &nbsp;$2500 Tata Nano, even if oil production can be raised to say 95MBpd (we are currently at 87), the price is almost certainly going to be bid up even higher. </p><p>
&nbsp; I don't think the naysayers understand the fact that oil (and other resources) tend to be distributed in a manner such that the difficulty of extraction follows a log normal distribution. That means that the difficulty of extraction can vary by orders of magnitude from field to field. The easier deposits get developed first. With oil the problem is not that we've used up 50%, but rather that the easiest 40% was much much easier to extract than the rest. If the new stuff was only two or three times as tough as the easy stuff, technology could readily cope, but I think it is probably more like 50 times tougher. Given finite oil field development resources, especially of experienced personell, it may not be possible to maintain current production rates. Reserves may sound big on paper, but if we can't get at it quickly enough, scarcity pricing will prevail.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by LGT</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:36:44 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Why, no sludge recovery and energy conversion?</strong></p><p>Biomass (combined plants, agricultural, human and other animal 'waste') of about 10 million tons per day.</p><p>
And don't forget there are an estimated 2-3 trillion trees that haven't been cleared yet!</p><p>
Joe, Any room for a 'Case 3' in your scenarios in which the world population could be 'decimated' within the next 5-7 years due to war, collapsing ecosystems, food, water and topsoil shortages, disease ... &nbsp;<br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Why, no sludge recovery and energy conversion?</strong></p><p>Biomass (combined plants, agricultural, human and other animal 'waste') of about 10 million tons per day.</p><p>
And don't forget there are an estimated 2-3 trillion trees that haven't been cleared yet!</p><p>
Joe, Any room for a 'Case 3' in your scenarios in which the world population could be 'decimated' within the next 5-7 years due to war, collapsing ecosystems, food, water and topsoil shortages, disease ... &nbsp;<br>
</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:44:41 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>If it smells like a peak,  ...<p>BigTom wrote: I don't think the naysayers understand the fact that oil (and other resources) tend to be distributed in a manner such that the difficulty of extraction follows a log normal distribution.<p>
I wouldn't exactly agree here. (I'd recommend "Beyond Oil" by Ken Deffeyes.) The simplest way to model oil decline is through the logistic curve: the ability to produce is linearly dependent on the fraction of oil that remains. Hubbert did pretty well with this method for the U.S. (1970) but seems to have overestimated by a few years for world production (2000). (The latter miss may be due to the economic slowdown from the seventies oil shocks.) In any case, Deffeyes refined the estimate to 2005, and seems to have been correct for conventional crude oil.<p>
Now unconventional oil (deep-water, heavy oil) is more difficult to extract. But this is just a small but growing fraction of oil production (17/87 in 2010 or 23/60 by 2030 using Colin Campbell's data). Here is <a href="http://www.peakoil.net/headline-news/shell-versus-peak-oil-at-cnbc" rel="nofollow">Matt Simmons on unconventional oil recently on CNBC:<p>
CNBC: But he's suggesting you are leaving out unconventional sources of energy in your calculations.<p>
Simmons: They make the distinction [between conventional and unconventional], but they don't seem to make the connection about the vast difference of flow. They are so hung up on the total estimated volume. Once they start in a project they say, "Well, the reserves last forever so we can book a million barrels of reserves."<p>
The energy that is consumed to get oil out of the oil sands of Canada -- in massive amounts of potable water and natural gas -- is so vast you are really turning gold into lead. What you get out is a very low quality amount of oil that has to be upgraded and diluted with high quality oil to get synthetic crude. What I can't figure out is why the executives of these oil companies don't understand that.</p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>If it smells like a peak,  ...<p>BigTom wrote: I don't think the naysayers understand the fact that oil (and other resources) tend to be distributed in a manner such that the difficulty of extraction follows a log normal distribution.<p>
I wouldn't exactly agree here. (I'd recommend "Beyond Oil" by Ken Deffeyes.) The simplest way to model oil decline is through the logistic curve: the ability to produce is linearly dependent on the fraction of oil that remains. Hubbert did pretty well with this method for the U.S. (1970) but seems to have overestimated by a few years for world production (2000). (The latter miss may be due to the economic slowdown from the seventies oil shocks.) In any case, Deffeyes refined the estimate to 2005, and seems to have been correct for conventional crude oil.<p>
Now unconventional oil (deep-water, heavy oil) is more difficult to extract. But this is just a small but growing fraction of oil production (17/87 in 2010 or 23/60 by 2030 using Colin Campbell's data). Here is <a href="http://www.peakoil.net/headline-news/shell-versus-peak-oil-at-cnbc" rel="nofollow">Matt Simmons on unconventional oil recently on CNBC:<p>
CNBC: But he's suggesting you are leaving out unconventional sources of energy in your calculations.<p>
Simmons: They make the distinction [between conventional and unconventional], but they don't seem to make the connection about the vast difference of flow. They are so hung up on the total estimated volume. Once they start in a project they say, "Well, the reserves last forever so we can book a million barrels of reserves."<p>
The energy that is consumed to get oil out of the oil sands of Canada -- in massive amounts of potable water and natural gas -- is so vast you are really turning gold into lead. What you get out is a very low quality amount of oil that has to be upgraded and diluted with high quality oil to get synthetic crude. What I can't figure out is why the executives of these oil companies don't understand that.</p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Bart Anderson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 17:02:03 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Daring to cross the no-man's land<p>Good for you, Joseph, in daring the cross the no-man's land between the peak oil and climate change communities. For too long, they have not been talking to one another.<p>
Some comments from the peak oil side. &nbsp;<p>


The estimate of peak oil within 20 years is fairly certain, but probably too conservative. There's evidence that it is much closer, and perhaps may have already occurred. <br> <br>Among people who are serious about estimates, there seems to be a gradual convergence to this: the date of the peak will be hard to call and hard to recognize, but it is in the current 10-year period. For sure, it is time to start worrying. Nations and oil companies all are making moves that would make sense if they are anticipating a peak. &nbsp;<br> <br> Coal has received much less attention, and estimates are harder to make. <p>
bigTom made some important points, especially about how the remaining oil will be much harder to get (i.e. more energy will be consumed getting the energy resource, and less energy will be available for use). <p>
The issue of depletion is way simpler than climate change. It should be possible to make better estimates, especially if we could get some transparency into the reserves of oil-producing countries. Presumably estimates will improve, so that the kind of analysis you are doing here will have better data. (A GAO report last year recommended that the government become involved in improving the quality of estimates.)<p>
To get critical feedback, you might consider The Oil Drum website. The TOD folks can be overpowering in their responses, but one can learn a lot, especially from the foremost writers there.<p>
I hate to complicate the model, but FOOD and INTERNATIONAL CONFLICT need to be considered. Michael Klare has just come out with an eye-opening book, Rising Powers, Shrinking Planet ... made me realize that conflict over energy is the unpredictable wildcard that could trump all other scenarios. (Moral: we have to come to an understanding with China). <br> <br> <a href="http://energybulletin.net/42744.html" rel="nofollow">Klare interview <br> <a href="http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174919" rel="nofollow">Klare essay <br> <a href="http://energybulletin.net/42586.html" rel="nofollow">Book excerpt



<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></a></br></a></br></a></br></br></p></p></p></p></br></br></br></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Daring to cross the no-man's land<p>Good for you, Joseph, in daring the cross the no-man's land between the peak oil and climate change communities. For too long, they have not been talking to one another.<p>
Some comments from the peak oil side. &nbsp;<p>


The estimate of peak oil within 20 years is fairly certain, but probably too conservative. There's evidence that it is much closer, and perhaps may have already occurred. <br> <br>Among people who are serious about estimates, there seems to be a gradual convergence to this: the date of the peak will be hard to call and hard to recognize, but it is in the current 10-year period. For sure, it is time to start worrying. Nations and oil companies all are making moves that would make sense if they are anticipating a peak. &nbsp;<br> <br> Coal has received much less attention, and estimates are harder to make. <p>
bigTom made some important points, especially about how the remaining oil will be much harder to get (i.e. more energy will be consumed getting the energy resource, and less energy will be available for use). <p>
The issue of depletion is way simpler than climate change. It should be possible to make better estimates, especially if we could get some transparency into the reserves of oil-producing countries. Presumably estimates will improve, so that the kind of analysis you are doing here will have better data. (A GAO report last year recommended that the government become involved in improving the quality of estimates.)<p>
To get critical feedback, you might consider The Oil Drum website. The TOD folks can be overpowering in their responses, but one can learn a lot, especially from the foremost writers there.<p>
I hate to complicate the model, but FOOD and INTERNATIONAL CONFLICT need to be considered. Michael Klare has just come out with an eye-opening book, Rising Powers, Shrinking Planet ... made me realize that conflict over energy is the unpredictable wildcard that could trump all other scenarios. (Moral: we have to come to an understanding with China). <br> <br> <a href="http://energybulletin.net/42744.html" rel="nofollow">Klare interview <br> <a href="http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174919" rel="nofollow">Klare essay <br> <a href="http://energybulletin.net/42586.html" rel="nofollow">Book excerpt



<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></a></br></a></br></a></br></br></p></p></p></p></br></br></br></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Staale</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 00:37:17 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Is 450 ppm even the number to aim for?<p>No quibbles about the thrust of the post - coming at the problem both from a climate science and a "peak stuff" angle is probably very wise. Just wondering about the target number indicated in the title - I've recently heard several speakers question the wisdom of the 450 aim, in light of recent developments such as the accelerated melting in the arctic, decades ahead of predictions by the climate science community.<p>
For example, Bill McKibben at <a href="http://www.350.org/" rel="nofollow">www.350.org argues that aiming for 350 ppm would be much more prudent, and in a recent two-part interview with Jason Bradford of The Reality Report (hosted at Global Public Media), Phillip Sutton (co-author with David Spratt of <a href="http://www.climatecodered.net/" rel="nofollow">Climate Code Red: The Case for a Sustainability Emergency) argues that 320 ppm should be our goal (download <a href="http://globalpublicmedia.com/sustainability_emergency" rel="nofollow">Part 1 and <a href="http://globalpublicmedia.com/sustainability_emergency_part_ii" rel="nofollow">Part 2 of the interview as mp3). Since we're already decades past both of these figures, this would involve pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere. <p>
Clearly, this is not politically possible just at the moment. Even so, it was only just a year ago that Bill McKibben's Step it Up events very rapidly moved the boundaries of what was politically possible, i.e. what politicians were willing to state as policy goals, and within a very short while, most of the major US presidential candidates were talking 80 by 50. &nbsp;Of course, we've yet to see this translating into concrete action that actually slows down (let alone reverses) emissions trends...</p></a></a></a></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Is 450 ppm even the number to aim for?<p>No quibbles about the thrust of the post - coming at the problem both from a climate science and a "peak stuff" angle is probably very wise. Just wondering about the target number indicated in the title - I've recently heard several speakers question the wisdom of the 450 aim, in light of recent developments such as the accelerated melting in the arctic, decades ahead of predictions by the climate science community.<p>
For example, Bill McKibben at <a href="http://www.350.org/" rel="nofollow">www.350.org argues that aiming for 350 ppm would be much more prudent, and in a recent two-part interview with Jason Bradford of The Reality Report (hosted at Global Public Media), Phillip Sutton (co-author with David Spratt of <a href="http://www.climatecodered.net/" rel="nofollow">Climate Code Red: The Case for a Sustainability Emergency) argues that 320 ppm should be our goal (download <a href="http://globalpublicmedia.com/sustainability_emergency" rel="nofollow">Part 1 and <a href="http://globalpublicmedia.com/sustainability_emergency_part_ii" rel="nofollow">Part 2 of the interview as mp3). Since we're already decades past both of these figures, this would involve pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere. <p>
Clearly, this is not politically possible just at the moment. Even so, it was only just a year ago that Bill McKibben's Step it Up events very rapidly moved the boundaries of what was politically possible, i.e. what politicians were willing to state as policy goals, and within a very short while, most of the major US presidential candidates were talking 80 by 50. &nbsp;Of course, we've yet to see this translating into concrete action that actually slows down (let alone reverses) emissions trends...</p></a></a></a></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by GRLCowan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 05:11:54 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Pulling a few 100 Gt CO2 out of air is doable<p>Mine tailings have <a href="http://preview.tinyurl.com/59fsnw" rel="nofollow">shown the way. Transformed into enough magnesite or hydromagnesite dust to make a worldwide 1-mm layer if it fell all at once, but falling in fact over a period of years, our CO2 problem would be no longer a problem.<p>
Energetically this approach -- pulverizing a suitable mineral and dispersing it -- is the least expensive option I know of. I don't see why it wouldn't also require the least political effort.<p>
Perhaps, though, we should not take this relatively easy, very effective route. Beyond CO2 and global warming, what if we run into future problems for which there aren't such neat solutions? Won't we want the CO2 problem still to be with us then, still being addressed ineffectively, so we'll have our hand in?<p>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html" rel="nofollow">How shall the car gain nuclear cachet?</a></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Pulling a few 100 Gt CO2 out of air is doable<p>Mine tailings have <a href="http://preview.tinyurl.com/59fsnw" rel="nofollow">shown the way. Transformed into enough magnesite or hydromagnesite dust to make a worldwide 1-mm layer if it fell all at once, but falling in fact over a period of years, our CO2 problem would be no longer a problem.<p>
Energetically this approach -- pulverizing a suitable mineral and dispersing it -- is the least expensive option I know of. I don't see why it wouldn't also require the least political effort.<p>
Perhaps, though, we should not take this relatively easy, very effective route. Beyond CO2 and global warming, what if we run into future problems for which there aren't such neat solutions? Won't we want the CO2 problem still to be with us then, still being addressed ineffectively, so we'll have our hand in?<p>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html" rel="nofollow">How shall the car gain nuclear cachet?</a></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by nycowboy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 02:06:45 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/is-450-ppm-politically-possible-part-25/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Economics</strong></p><p>I doubt estimates that show energy consumption will double in the next 50 years. Higher prices will price people out of the market or otherwise force conservation.</p><p>
Poor field hands in China aren't going to be able to afford $4/gallon gas nor will Americans be able to afford $10/gallon gas and drive as many miles as they currently do. $10 a therm natural gas will promote dramatically better insulation, and people keeping their heat much lower. $1/KwH electricity, likewise will cut down on demand, dramatically.</p><p>
High prices are the future if too many people demand energy. Price is driven by demand. That's why coal used to be so cheap -- nobody really wanted to coal as it was difficult to burn cleanly, and difficult to transport. Oil and natural gas became the preferred fuel in the second half of the 20th future for that reason.</p><p>
High prices are a natural check on consumption. The world money supply is not limitless, much less any individual. People will only consume as much energy as they can afford -- if they consume more, then they will rapidly run out of credit, and the lights will go dark.</p>
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				<p><strong>Economics</strong></p><p>I doubt estimates that show energy consumption will double in the next 50 years. Higher prices will price people out of the market or otherwise force conservation.</p><p>
Poor field hands in China aren't going to be able to afford $4/gallon gas nor will Americans be able to afford $10/gallon gas and drive as many miles as they currently do. $10 a therm natural gas will promote dramatically better insulation, and people keeping their heat much lower. $1/KwH electricity, likewise will cut down on demand, dramatically.</p><p>
High prices are the future if too many people demand energy. Price is driven by demand. That's why coal used to be so cheap -- nobody really wanted to coal as it was difficult to burn cleanly, and difficult to transport. Oil and natural gas became the preferred fuel in the second half of the 20th future for that reason.</p><p>
High prices are a natural check on consumption. The world money supply is not limitless, much less any individual. People will only consume as much energy as they can afford -- if they consume more, then they will rapidly run out of credit, and the lights will go dark.</p>
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