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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Reversing Reagan&#8217;s joke]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 10:20:24 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>You can't have it both ways<p>As we all know, <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/8/8/114057/5965" rel="nofollow">power corrupts. &nbsp;And the malfeasance of the Army Corp long predates the Bush Regime.<p>
My opinion: <br>
The reason that we have a corrupt federal government is that we have little citizen engagement.<p>
The reason we have little citizen engagement(aside from the state of perpetual overwork and distraction that characterizes the modern life) is that the federal government is too big, too abstract, and too obtuse for the average person to get engaged with. &nbsp;In fact, as far as I can tell, much the same problem exists (to a lesser degree) at the state level. &nbsp;The only place that I have seen the level of citizen engagement required to effectively guard against corruption is at the local level.<p>
The only solution that I see is to take as much power as possible away from the feds and the states, and restore that power to the level of local governance. &nbsp;Of course, this would make it even more complicated to impose sensible environmental policy, because environmental issues cross political boundaries. &nbsp;But it's the only way that I can see to restore citizen engagement in the political process: make politics happen on a level where the average citizen can see it, experience it, be involved in it, and influence it.</p></p></br></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>You can't have it both ways<p>As we all know, <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/8/8/114057/5965" rel="nofollow">power corrupts. &nbsp;And the malfeasance of the Army Corp long predates the Bush Regime.<p>
My opinion: <br>
The reason that we have a corrupt federal government is that we have little citizen engagement.<p>
The reason we have little citizen engagement(aside from the state of perpetual overwork and distraction that characterizes the modern life) is that the federal government is too big, too abstract, and too obtuse for the average person to get engaged with. &nbsp;In fact, as far as I can tell, much the same problem exists (to a lesser degree) at the state level. &nbsp;The only place that I have seen the level of citizen engagement required to effectively guard against corruption is at the local level.<p>
The only solution that I see is to take as much power as possible away from the feds and the states, and restore that power to the level of local governance. &nbsp;Of course, this would make it even more complicated to impose sensible environmental policy, because environmental issues cross political boundaries. &nbsp;But it's the only way that I can see to restore citizen engagement in the political process: make politics happen on a level where the average citizen can see it, experience it, be involved in it, and influence it.</p></p></br></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 11:15:13 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>I would agree that as much local power</strong></p><p>should be used as possible, in the European Union this is known with the clunky title of subsidiarity, and the US is set up in a similar way. &nbsp;Ideally, the Federal government would do to the localities what the US did with Europe after WWII: tell them that they will get a whole bunch of money (in our case, to move toward sustainability), as long as they can all get together and figure out how to spend the money (in our case, among localities of a certain area). &nbsp;So, say in the infrastructure case, various municipalities could get together and say, "We will create a stable market for [subways, wind turbines, solar panels]", and the Feds would give them money. &nbsp;That way, each level of government does what it does best.</p>
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				<p><strong>I would agree that as much local power</strong></p><p>should be used as possible, in the European Union this is known with the clunky title of subsidiarity, and the US is set up in a similar way. &nbsp;Ideally, the Federal government would do to the localities what the US did with Europe after WWII: tell them that they will get a whole bunch of money (in our case, to move toward sustainability), as long as they can all get together and figure out how to spend the money (in our case, among localities of a certain area). &nbsp;So, say in the infrastructure case, various municipalities could get together and say, "We will create a stable market for [subways, wind turbines, solar panels]", and the Feds would give them money. &nbsp;That way, each level of government does what it does best.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 16:42:16 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>On the Masters of the Universe...<p>The Roger Cohen quote reminds me of <a href="http://counterpunch.org/estabrook01112003.html" rel="nofollow">John Dewey , the great American philosopher. Writing eighty years ago he says: politics is the shadow cast on society by big business... Power today resides in control of the means of production, exchange, publicity, transportation and communication. Whoever owns them rules the life of the country, even if democratic forms remain. Business for private profit through private control of banking, land, industry reinforced by command of the press, press agents and other means of publicity and propaganda, that is the system of actual power, the source of coercion and control, and until it's unravelled we can't talk seriously about democracy and freedom.<p>
Of course, unlike Cohen, Dewey was a passionate believer in democracy.<br>
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				<p><strong>On the Masters of the Universe...<p>The Roger Cohen quote reminds me of <a href="http://counterpunch.org/estabrook01112003.html" rel="nofollow">John Dewey , the great American philosopher. Writing eighty years ago he says: politics is the shadow cast on society by big business... Power today resides in control of the means of production, exchange, publicity, transportation and communication. Whoever owns them rules the life of the country, even if democratic forms remain. Business for private profit through private control of banking, land, industry reinforced by command of the press, press agents and other means of publicity and propaganda, that is the system of actual power, the source of coercion and control, and until it's unravelled we can't talk seriously about democracy and freedom.<p>
Of course, unlike Cohen, Dewey was a passionate believer in democracy.<br>
</br></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:12:45 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>The New School of Environmentalism?<p>I think it's worthwhile to remember that Galbraith is not just acting out of liberal goodness, and optimism. Like many of us who have studied peak oil, he is <a href="http://www2.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2007/0707.Galbraith.html" rel="nofollow">terrified of what the future could bring: <p>
The climate collapse--which may bring the flooding of New York, Boston, London, Calcutta, and Shanghai--will be a calamity next to which the end of the Soviet Union will seem very small. Long industrial chains, for jet aircraft, automobiles, telecommunications, electricity, and much else, will crumble, as they did in the USSR and Yugoslavia, particularly if new interior boundaries form and countries break up. And interior boundaries will form, as those on the high ground seek to defend it. The demographic effects will be similarly dire: Older, urban males (like me) with no survival skills will die. Rural New England will turn into a deforested exurban slum. <br>
Piecemeal, band-aid solutions and tinkering with markets will no longer suffice. We need to open people's eyes to what we are facing. It's not because of some love of Big Government that some of us are proposing radical solutions.<br>
</br></br></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The New School of Environmentalism?<p>I think it's worthwhile to remember that Galbraith is not just acting out of liberal goodness, and optimism. Like many of us who have studied peak oil, he is <a href="http://www2.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2007/0707.Galbraith.html" rel="nofollow">terrified of what the future could bring: <p>
The climate collapse--which may bring the flooding of New York, Boston, London, Calcutta, and Shanghai--will be a calamity next to which the end of the Soviet Union will seem very small. Long industrial chains, for jet aircraft, automobiles, telecommunications, electricity, and much else, will crumble, as they did in the USSR and Yugoslavia, particularly if new interior boundaries form and countries break up. And interior boundaries will form, as those on the high ground seek to defend it. The demographic effects will be similarly dire: Older, urban males (like me) with no survival skills will die. Rural New England will turn into a deforested exurban slum. <br>
Piecemeal, band-aid solutions and tinkering with markets will no longer suffice. We need to open people's eyes to what we are facing. It's not because of some love of Big Government that some of us are proposing radical solutions.<br>
</br></br></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:25:02 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Oops. wrong thread...<p>My comment above was supposed to go in the <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/8/10/141832/556" rel="nofollow">Can Markets Solve GW? thread. Works here too I suppose. (Who reads these things anyway?)</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Oops. wrong thread...<p>My comment above was supposed to go in the <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/8/10/141832/556" rel="nofollow">Can Markets Solve GW? thread. Works here too I suppose. (Who reads these things anyway?)</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2007 00:24:40 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Lots of people read them<p>Without the comments blogs wouldn't be worth reading. This quote cracked me up:<p>
"Older, urban males (like me) with no survival skills will die."

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Lots of people read them<p>Without the comments blogs wouldn't be worth reading. This quote cracked me up:<p>
"Older, urban males (like me) with no survival skills will die."

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2007 06:14:22 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>How are your boating skills?<p>Thanks for the reassurance, bioD! That means there are at least 6 of us talking to each other here!<p>
Yeah, the Head for the Hills rhetoric does seem a little over the top, something we'd expect from Kunstler, and not an academic (with an even more famous father).<p>
But you probably saw this map of Florida under water in Hansen's recent piece in <a href="http://environment.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/mg19526141.600/mg19526141.600-2_861.jpg" rel="nofollow">New Scientist. You'll stop laughing when the cold waters of Puget Sound start lapping around your ankles! You do live on higher ground, don't you?</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>How are your boating skills?<p>Thanks for the reassurance, bioD! That means there are at least 6 of us talking to each other here!<p>
Yeah, the Head for the Hills rhetoric does seem a little over the top, something we'd expect from Kunstler, and not an academic (with an even more famous father).<p>
But you probably saw this map of Florida under water in Hansen's recent piece in <a href="http://environment.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/mg19526141.600/mg19526141.600-2_861.jpg" rel="nofollow">New Scientist. You'll stop laughing when the cold waters of Puget Sound start lapping around your ankles! You do live on higher ground, don't you?</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by sunflower</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2007 07:51:15 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Underwater Sound</strong></p><p>I kayak Puget Sound. &nbsp;There is a lot of shoreline near the megatropolis. &nbsp;Beach cabins were torn down. &nbsp;Now low waterfront has million dollar new investment mansions, many thousands of them, many unoccupied. &nbsp;These well built surplus castles and properties are destined to go underwater. &nbsp;It is sobering to think how much shoreland there is in the world.<br>
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				<p><strong>Underwater Sound</strong></p><p>I kayak Puget Sound. &nbsp;There is a lot of shoreline near the megatropolis. &nbsp;Beach cabins were torn down. &nbsp;Now low waterfront has million dollar new investment mansions, many thousands of them, many unoccupied. &nbsp;These well built surplus castles and properties are destined to go underwater. &nbsp;It is sobering to think how much shoreland there is in the world.<br>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:32:15 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>I found his remark amusing because<p>of his concern for himself, a white middle-aged rich white guy who can barely tie his own shoe laces. No mention of children, the women caring for them or the elderly.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>I found his remark amusing because<p>of his concern for himself, a white middle-aged rich white guy who can barely tie his own shoe laces. No mention of children, the women caring for them or the elderly.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Jonathan M Feldman</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:53:30 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Government and Markets</strong></p><p>First, "picking winners" and whether the government can do this or not and "regulation" and whether the government should do this or not are separate questions. &nbsp;So I don't understand a lot of the celebration of markets some people are in engaged in. &nbsp;</p><p>
Second, whether the market or government does a good or bad job depends on accountability structures. &nbsp;With respect to the government, voting power is more decentralized and distributed than stock ownership. &nbsp; As a result, the government should be associated with somewhat more accountability, even though elected officials can be bought off.</p><p>
Third, if ownership were more distributed, then corporations might better serve environmental concerns, particularly if owners were potential victims of environmental "externalities," e.g. pollution. &nbsp;Ownership and not markets might be the problem, but markets themselves have not solved the global warming problem.</p><p>
Fourth, if the government or markets fail, we need to explore how they can succeed better. &nbsp;Social scientists rarely ask such questions, because then they would have to worry about how organizations are designed, alternatives in design, and this kind of stuff is rarely taught well if at all. &nbsp;Our politicians and many academics know nothing about it.</p><p>
In any case, I agree with Rynn.</p>
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				<p><strong>Government and Markets</strong></p><p>First, "picking winners" and whether the government can do this or not and "regulation" and whether the government should do this or not are separate questions. &nbsp;So I don't understand a lot of the celebration of markets some people are in engaged in. &nbsp;</p><p>
Second, whether the market or government does a good or bad job depends on accountability structures. &nbsp;With respect to the government, voting power is more decentralized and distributed than stock ownership. &nbsp; As a result, the government should be associated with somewhat more accountability, even though elected officials can be bought off.</p><p>
Third, if ownership were more distributed, then corporations might better serve environmental concerns, particularly if owners were potential victims of environmental "externalities," e.g. pollution. &nbsp;Ownership and not markets might be the problem, but markets themselves have not solved the global warming problem.</p><p>
Fourth, if the government or markets fail, we need to explore how they can succeed better. &nbsp;Social scientists rarely ask such questions, because then they would have to worry about how organizations are designed, alternatives in design, and this kind of stuff is rarely taught well if at all. &nbsp;Our politicians and many academics know nothing about it.</p><p>
In any case, I agree with Rynn.</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Jonathan M Feldman</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2007 06:21:45 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Markets, whose their markets or ours?</strong></p><p>I just watched a TV program on globalization. &nbsp;It points out that the US and Europe gain economically from imports from countries like India where the "free market" pollutes the water supply and also by using cheap energy sources that don't reflect the global costs of pollution. &nbsp;</p><p>
When we say "markets work fine" is this what we mean?</p>
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				<p><strong>Markets, whose their markets or ours?</strong></p><p>I just watched a TV program on globalization. &nbsp;It points out that the US and Europe gain economically from imports from countries like India where the "free market" pollutes the water supply and also by using cheap energy sources that don't reflect the global costs of pollution. &nbsp;</p><p>
When we say "markets work fine" is this what we mean?</p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Jonathan M Feldman</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/im-from-the-government-and-im-here-to-help/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:21:42 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>&quot;Rights&quot; and Orwellian Language</strong></p><p>"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"<br>
-- Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776</p><p>
There is a basic problem in the contemporary discussions of rights. &nbsp;A basic principle in democracy has been taken over by technocratic policy think, namely the concept of "emissions rights." &nbsp;This legal innovation has begun to concept the most basic ideas of American society namely the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." &nbsp;This idea of the right to life from the U.S. Declaration of Independence includes the right to maintain one's life which is being violated by polluters. &nbsp;</p><p>
When polluters are given the "right to pollute" they are potentially violating the "right to life." &nbsp;Thus, emissions "rights" have are not exclusively a question of markets, but a question of politics as well. &nbsp;Citizens in Western Europe and increasingly the developing world recognize that the U.S. uses far more energy than its share of the world population and also disproportionately contributes to global warming and other environmental ills. &nbsp;Therefore, treating the right to emissions and market solutions as some kind of "internal" U.S. debate misses the larger problem which is whether the "right to pollute" that is traded within the U.S. violates the rights not only of U.S. citizens, but citizens elsewhere.</p><p>
This does not mean that government is always more efficient or productive than markets. &nbsp;The Soviet case, however, pointed to the limits of a centralized state which we also have in the Pentagon as Jon Rynn and others have noted. &nbsp;Rather, independently of the efficiency of markets, if companies are more efficient or productive by violating my or your rights to life free from health reducing pollution, then efficiencies are irrelevant.</p><p>
The increasingly technocratic education that some get in policy schools, economics departments, and engineering &nbsp;programs probably explains why some people can go on about "rights" and assume that it only refers to the "right" to pollute.</p><p>
Note: Try re-reading or reading the Declaration of Independence.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;Rights&quot; and Orwellian Language</strong></p><p>"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness"<br>
-- Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776</p><p>
There is a basic problem in the contemporary discussions of rights. &nbsp;A basic principle in democracy has been taken over by technocratic policy think, namely the concept of "emissions rights." &nbsp;This legal innovation has begun to concept the most basic ideas of American society namely the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." &nbsp;This idea of the right to life from the U.S. Declaration of Independence includes the right to maintain one's life which is being violated by polluters. &nbsp;</p><p>
When polluters are given the "right to pollute" they are potentially violating the "right to life." &nbsp;Thus, emissions "rights" have are not exclusively a question of markets, but a question of politics as well. &nbsp;Citizens in Western Europe and increasingly the developing world recognize that the U.S. uses far more energy than its share of the world population and also disproportionately contributes to global warming and other environmental ills. &nbsp;Therefore, treating the right to emissions and market solutions as some kind of "internal" U.S. debate misses the larger problem which is whether the "right to pollute" that is traded within the U.S. violates the rights not only of U.S. citizens, but citizens elsewhere.</p><p>
This does not mean that government is always more efficient or productive than markets. &nbsp;The Soviet case, however, pointed to the limits of a centralized state which we also have in the Pentagon as Jon Rynn and others have noted. &nbsp;Rather, independently of the efficiency of markets, if companies are more efficient or productive by violating my or your rights to life free from health reducing pollution, then efficiencies are irrelevant.</p><p>
The increasingly technocratic education that some get in policy schools, economics departments, and engineering &nbsp;programs probably explains why some people can go on about "rights" and assume that it only refers to the "right" to pollute.</p><p>
Note: Try re-reading or reading the Declaration of Independence.</br></p>
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