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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Arctic sea ice declines sharply in August]]></title>
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	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
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            <title>Comment #1 by sindark</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:27:34 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Trends<p>Last summer's Arctic sea ice minimum was a major record-breaker. It sparked serious thinking about whether the Arctic summer could be ice-free within a decade. This summer's melt now seems likely to be less severe. Does this mean our level of worry should diminish, or is this simply oscillation around a worrying downward trend? It certainly gives ammunition to those who would like to deny that there is a trend at all. In the long run, it probably doesn't matter enormously whether the Arctic melts in ten years or thirty. Where it may matter considerably is insofar as awareness of Arctic melting either prompts the emergence of strong climatic policies or provides fodder for those who want to continue to delay.<p>
Whether it is ice or energy under consideration, the general lesson of shifting baselines is pertinent. We need to see past short term trends and our focus on how the recent past and the present compare, looking onwards to fundamental forces and long-term developments. Of course, when it comes to systems as massive and complex as the global climatic and economic systems, doing so is enormously difficult.

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Trends<p>Last summer's Arctic sea ice minimum was a major record-breaker. It sparked serious thinking about whether the Arctic summer could be ice-free within a decade. This summer's melt now seems likely to be less severe. Does this mean our level of worry should diminish, or is this simply oscillation around a worrying downward trend? It certainly gives ammunition to those who would like to deny that there is a trend at all. In the long run, it probably doesn't matter enormously whether the Arctic melts in ten years or thirty. Where it may matter considerably is insofar as awareness of Arctic melting either prompts the emergence of strong climatic policies or provides fodder for those who want to continue to delay.<p>
Whether it is ice or energy under consideration, the general lesson of shifting baselines is pertinent. We need to see past short term trends and our focus on how the recent past and the present compare, looking onwards to fundamental forces and long-term developments. Of course, when it comes to systems as massive and complex as the global climatic and economic systems, doing so is enormously difficult.

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Bob Wallace</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 03:05:34 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Not so sure about this...</strong></p><p>"This summer's melt now seems likely to be less severe."</p><p>
Look at the slope of the 2008 melt. &nbsp;It took a significant downturn in mid July. &nbsp;</p><p>
And remember that 2008 is melting thin ice, new ice that formed after the 2007 melt.</p><p>
Unless the rate of melting slows soon we should meet or exceed 2007 melting.</p><p>
Even if 2008 melting slows and doesn't reach 2007 levels I don't think deniers can get much mileage in calling 2007 abnormal.</p>
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				<p><strong>Not so sure about this...</strong></p><p>"This summer's melt now seems likely to be less severe."</p><p>
Look at the slope of the 2008 melt. &nbsp;It took a significant downturn in mid July. &nbsp;</p><p>
And remember that 2008 is melting thin ice, new ice that formed after the 2007 melt.</p><p>
Unless the rate of melting slows soon we should meet or exceed 2007 melting.</p><p>
Even if 2008 melting slows and doesn't reach 2007 levels I don't think deniers can get much mileage in calling 2007 abnormal.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Bob Wallace</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 03:28:45 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/3</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Not so sure about this...</strong></p><p>"This summer's melt now seems likely to be less severe."</p><p>
Look at the slope of the 2008 melt. &nbsp;It took a significant downturn in mid July. &nbsp;</p><p>
And remember that 2008 is melting thin ice, new ice that formed after the 2007 melt.</p><p>
Unless the rate of melting slows soon we should meet or exceed 2007 melting.</p><p>
Even if 2008 melting slows and doesn't reach 2007 levels I don't think deniers can get much mileage in calling 2007 abnormal.</p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>Not so sure about this...</strong></p><p>"This summer's melt now seems likely to be less severe."</p><p>
Look at the slope of the 2008 melt. &nbsp;It took a significant downturn in mid July. &nbsp;</p><p>
And remember that 2008 is melting thin ice, new ice that formed after the 2007 melt.</p><p>
Unless the rate of melting slows soon we should meet or exceed 2007 melting.</p><p>
Even if 2008 melting slows and doesn't reach 2007 levels I don't think deniers can get much mileage in calling 2007 abnormal.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 03:48:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ice free</strong></p><p>Does ice free mean conveyor free? &nbsp;And Gulf Stream free? &nbsp;And a 10 year onset ice age? &nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Ice free</strong></p><p>Does ice free mean conveyor free? &nbsp;And Gulf Stream free? &nbsp;And a 10 year onset ice age? &nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by sindark</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 06:30:37 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/5</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>THC<p>"Does ice free mean conveyor free? &nbsp;And Gulf Stream free? &nbsp;And a 10 year onset ice age?"<p>
From what I have read, probably not. When people talk about disrupting the thermohaline circulation (THC), they are usually talking about large-scale melting of the Greenland glaciers, not the summer disappearance of the Arctic icecap. That being said, nobody really knows where the threshold for seriously disrupting the THC lies.

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>THC<p>"Does ice free mean conveyor free? &nbsp;And Gulf Stream free? &nbsp;And a 10 year onset ice age?"<p>
From what I have read, probably not. When people talk about disrupting the thermohaline circulation (THC), they are usually talking about large-scale melting of the Greenland glaciers, not the summer disappearance of the Arctic icecap. That being said, nobody really knows where the threshold for seriously disrupting the THC lies.

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Bob B</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 04:41:42 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ice Melt<p>Joe, why does it always seem you pick the most alarming data?<p>
Take a look at this data:<p>
<a href="http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5952/seaiceextentri5.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5952/seaiceextentri5.jpg ...<p>
Or you can read here:<p>
<a href="http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/arctic-ice-extent-discrepancy-nsidc-versus-cryosphere-today/" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/arctic-ic ...<p>
No way will 2008 be like 2007</p></a></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Ice Melt<p>Joe, why does it always seem you pick the most alarming data?<p>
Take a look at this data:<p>
<a href="http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5952/seaiceextentri5.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5952/seaiceextentri5.jpg ...<p>
Or you can read here:<p>
<a href="http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/arctic-ice-extent-discrepancy-nsidc-versus-cryosphere-today/" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/arctic-ic ...<p>
No way will 2008 be like 2007</p></a></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by MAD MAC</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:45:04 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>This will be great for shipping</strong></p><p>During Ice free months, shipping will be able to transit via the north pole, in some cases reaching its destination much faster than otherwise.

<p>Victory in Pattani</p></p>
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				<p><strong>This will be great for shipping</strong></p><p>During Ice free months, shipping will be able to transit via the north pole, in some cases reaching its destination much faster than otherwise.

<p>Victory in Pattani</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:03:44 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>How long will Greenland ice last</strong></p><p>After the Arctic is ice free? &nbsp;With the 24 hour sunlight hitting the dark arctic sea this should really warm the whole northen region.</p><p>
I wonder if any Greenland ice melt estimates take this into account. &nbsp;These would seem to be exponential phenomena.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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				<p><strong>How long will Greenland ice last</strong></p><p>After the Arctic is ice free? &nbsp;With the 24 hour sunlight hitting the dark arctic sea this should really warm the whole northen region.</p><p>
I wonder if any Greenland ice melt estimates take this into account. &nbsp;These would seem to be exponential phenomena.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 03:29:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ice-bet/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Arctic ice, Greenland melt connected?<p><a href="http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/Ice/2008.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/Ice/2008.htm<p>
"Warmer temperatures are also accelerating ice melt on the nearby Greenland ice sheet, which contains enough ice to raise sea level by seven meters (23 feet). Mass loss in Greenland more than doubled between 1996 and 2005, with loss in the southeast accelerating even further since 2004. The summer of 2007 saw a record area of ice melt on Greenland, 10 percent more than the previous maximum in 2005."<p>
"In 2006, scientists reported that "glacial earthquakes" caused by large masses of ice moving rapidly over bedrock had doubled in frequency in Greenland over the last five years. These earthquakes are associated with meltwater from the glacier surface, which flows to the base of the ice sheet and lubricates it, causing rapid glacial movement. Positive feedback mechanisms such as this meltwater lubrication accelerate the speed with which glaciers react to warmer temperatures; ice sheets once thought to change only over millennia are now seen to be responding to warmer temperatures"<p>
This seems to indicate they are connected. &nbsp;That the warmer water at the edge of Greenland glaciers where icebergs calve and the higher rainfall from warmer arctic temps, both cause the dobins (glacial lakes) at the edge of glaciers to increase.<p>
Eventually these lakes drain into cracks in the glacier and lubricate the sliding effect at ground level under the glacier. &nbsp;The increase in the speed of the slide of the glacier connects the warming arctic sea temperature to the glacial melt.<p>
Warmer water at the edge of the glacier causes icebergs to break off quicker too and melt out through the fijords instead of clogging them up and slowing the glacier down.<p>
I think this in turn, dooms the Gulf Stream to end shortly after arctic ice vanishes.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>Arctic ice, Greenland melt connected?<p><a href="http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/Ice/2008.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/Ice/2008.htm<p>
"Warmer temperatures are also accelerating ice melt on the nearby Greenland ice sheet, which contains enough ice to raise sea level by seven meters (23 feet). Mass loss in Greenland more than doubled between 1996 and 2005, with loss in the southeast accelerating even further since 2004. The summer of 2007 saw a record area of ice melt on Greenland, 10 percent more than the previous maximum in 2005."<p>
"In 2006, scientists reported that "glacial earthquakes" caused by large masses of ice moving rapidly over bedrock had doubled in frequency in Greenland over the last five years. These earthquakes are associated with meltwater from the glacier surface, which flows to the base of the ice sheet and lubricates it, causing rapid glacial movement. Positive feedback mechanisms such as this meltwater lubrication accelerate the speed with which glaciers react to warmer temperatures; ice sheets once thought to change only over millennia are now seen to be responding to warmer temperatures"<p>
This seems to indicate they are connected. &nbsp;That the warmer water at the edge of Greenland glaciers where icebergs calve and the higher rainfall from warmer arctic temps, both cause the dobins (glacial lakes) at the edge of glaciers to increase.<p>
Eventually these lakes drain into cracks in the glacier and lubricate the sliding effect at ground level under the glacier. &nbsp;The increase in the speed of the slide of the glacier connects the warming arctic sea temperature to the glacial melt.<p>
Warmer water at the edge of the glacier causes icebergs to break off quicker too and melt out through the fijords instead of clogging them up and slowing the glacier down.<p>
I think this in turn, dooms the Gulf Stream to end shortly after arctic ice vanishes.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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