... but how much did the whole thing cost you? And how long did it take for you to assemble? Since this is a DIY job, I have to ask: what special knowledge would I need to get something similar? (I'm not a tinkerer, so suspect I'd need to get out a book -- but are we talking bicycle mechanics PLUS electronics or what?)

... 20% of all trips, biking or walking.

Are we really so lazy, so different than the Danes, that we need electric motors to "[open] up the bike not as a kind of quixotic hobby or outdoor exercise machine?"

Anybody got a fresh obesity map?

BioD, I love it, I am convinced it is indeed the ultimate hybrid-ekctric bike - and I want to copy it. A few questions for you, how did you purchase the components, such as the Crystallite 408 brushless motor and the controller? Did you buy the whole set with batteries and all? Thats the only way I've seen it sold on the web, with batteries you don't need. It seems like you only need to get the motor, controller from Crystallite, and then get the DeWalt batteries, right? What about a throttle, does that come with the motor? And also, could you possibly provide a little cost breakdown of that $1700 you said it cost, so I can get an idea of what I'll need to budget for? Thanks!

Since, dear BioD, you are interested in matters relating to coolness, and especially male competitive attractiveness, let me say that I am indeed very impressed by how easily you chugged up that hill, over and over again, past those non-battery-bikers.  But I am afraid your performance, however brilliant, did not do anything to add to your personal charms, IMHO.

On the other hand, there was one valiant fellow, toward the end of the hill-climbing sequence, who was standing and grinding, upright, on the pedals, his tight round butt up off the seat, his arms straight above the handlebar, his head and shoulders forward, his hard slender body weaving gracefully from side to side: the very picture of adorably charming athleticism.  Sure, you passed him minutes before, but it was he who won my heart.

As for coming through such a ride smelling like an "old sock," I am told there are people who find the aroma of the male jock's freshly used, besneakered sock rather alluring.  It would not surprise me to see someday an after-shave lotion named Old Sock on the men's cosmetics shelves, next to Old Spice.

Indeed, not only socks, but also other garments worn close to the flesh, seem to be in demand, in certain circles, for much the same reason.  What, for example, do our men in the military, the defenders of our freedom, so often ask their wives to send them, very privately, while they are setting themselves up in Fallujah, or staring down Tora Bora?

Chickens are our cousins! So are other sensitive animals! Enough is enough! No more factory farms!

When one becomes a serious exersize adict, the normally offensive smell related to exertion goes away.  Good old pheremones take precedence.  Endorphins and pheremones, nature's own aphrodisiacs, hehey.

That riding style does seem to impress also.  Then a dip in a pristine lake towards the end of the ride or run really brings the date all together.

  After 45 minutes the pain killing endorphins engage, and after 75 minutes the mood lifting endorphins take hold.  It's a whole new zen world if one follows up about 5 or 6 days a week with these work outs.  Just regulate the breathing to the zen breath of fire style for the rest of the time and the work out lasts 24/7.

It's all about status and sex, biodee surely has that right.  

I am thinking electric motorcycle now.  Of the serial plugin design.  A green hog?  What could be better to attract potential paramours?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

at how this thread started out in opposition to "the bicycle" and how, BioD, your response to me reinforces that.

It is as if, the bicycle, and not coal or something, is the enemy of the planet.

There are dozens of sub-cultures surrounding the bicycle, and I don't see any reason that electric bicycles shouldn't split into a few more ... but I don't give them uninformed advice about what THEY should be.

I don't say "go buy a fixie" for God's sake!

If you want to "market" to non-riders, go do that - but don't define your ethic in opposition to another and then act surprised when you get push-back.

Why not start selling kits to do this conversion?  That is, technically-inept person (and I hold myself forward as a great example) buys cheap bike, buys kit from you including all necessary parts and drawings of what wire to connect to what, and suddenly lots more people have electric bikes?  You could even just sell the drawings and instructions, leaving people to buy the specified parts on their own, though that would put it on the edge of too-daunting for those of us without much confidence in our technical skillz (what if we bought the wrong part and then the whole thing didn't work? etc).

Just a thought.

Rememer the old Whole earth Catalogue?  Brand should go revisit that and stop with the nukes.  He could get kits and parts going, a whole marketplace of alternatives for do it yourselfers.

Like craigslist for alternatives, but with the old Brand majic.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

There are definitely electric bike conversion kits available, and they come with very good instructions, but if you dont' have a LITTLE bike knowledge you're going to have some difficulty putting it together the first time. Any local bike mechanic, even if he or she has never put together an electric bike, will be able to follow the directions - it would probably be a good idea if you already have a bike and want to get a conversion kit, to take everything to your local mechanic, and talk to them about putting it together. THEN once it's together and running, figure out how it works so you can do your own routine maintenance!

One thing I haven't seen mentioned recently is helmets. EVERYONE SHOULD WEAR ONE! And I think that everyone I saw in BioD's video had one on. Don't worry about the spandex or the right socks or whatever, but you ABSOLUTELY should wear a helmet!! Even if you're the greatest bike rider in the world you still have to watch out for hte other guy, who's probably in a 3,000 lb hunk of steel travelling at a very high rate of speed!

Here's another one for aspiring e-bikers - review the rules of the road that apply to you - especially if you're not usually a road biker.

Finally, there's a really good comparison chart at the web site wildernessenergy.com that shows a large majority of the e-bikes and kits out there on the market now. It gives you a good idea of price variations and the difficulty of each installation.

Biodiversivist wrote in the original post: Acceleration isn't dangerous, high speeds are. Many people don't know the difference between the two concepts.

Acceleration is indeed a danger factor in terms of its putting a body or vehicle in a space-time-velocity that other operators are less likely to anticipate -- and is in this respect identical to speeding. If a car-driver wanting to enter a roadway via a left-hand turn looks left and sees no traffic, then looks right and sees no traffic, and then pulls out into the roadway only to be T-boned on the left by a vehicle, it matters not whether the principle factor weighting the failure-to-anticipate was the T-boning vehicle's acceleration or whether it was on-the-other-hand its speed -- the result remains the same.

Do you think those cyclists knew that your bike had an electrical motor? Or did you try to wait for someone to ride up and then book it up the hill to make them look silly? Cause that would be just too funny, I would hate to see some guy fly by me up a hill with ease as I'm sweating bullets and gasping for air. You must have had quite a laugh.

A friend of mine who had a large portion of his scalp torn away down to the bone in a bike/car accident would be interested in that theory.  Last I talked to him he was under the impression that a bike helmet would have prevented or reduced the level of his near fatal injury.

Oh, and I should inform the woman I know whose brother died in a bike/car accident.  Even his buddies at the scene thought he would have survived with a helmet on.

A blanket statement that helmets are ineffective is irresponsible.

FYI, very few bicyclists can reach 30 MPH unassisted.  Maybe you can, but the majority of people stay in the teens.

as claimed.  Certainly more than a combustion engine, but the efficiency of the electric grid is much poorer than naive expectation would conclude.  

Certainly there are more ways of pushing electrons than burning stuff, but the bulk of electricity is from burning stuff.  

Also, I find it unacceptable to use assist technology in a bike lane- which this seems to have.  

My other comment is about the engineering- why purchase a full suspension frame and they load the rear suspension with the mass of the batteries?  I think you may addressed that, but I recall that touring bikes tend to avoid suspension when they are loaded down, because it reduces the effectiveness.

One other comment- Wilon's Bicycle Science has a number of methods to reduce air drag; drop handlebars will increase your top speed more than bigger gears.  

The engineering certainly becomes more challenging (as one might be inclined to upgrade braking, lights.  

Definitely good for provoking discussion.

i wear a bike helmet all the time.  Why do motorcyclists not wear bike helmets more?  Or the same way, why do pedal cyclists not wear motor cyclist helmets? I can think of many answers:  

motorcyclists want to slide on the pavement further (to dissipate the energy), a fuller helmet facilitates that

they need more bug protection (thinking of the full visor helmets)

motorcyclists do not worry about overheating as much

That's not to say that bicycle helmet could not continue to improve;

I crashed three times in my first year of bike commuting.  Each helmet was replaced, each reduced the possibility of injury.  

you missed position.  Wilson's Bicycle Science shows that a full racing position is much more aerodynamic than sitting upright- by at least a factor of 2.  Definitely noticeable, especially in a head wind.

What's the total KWH for your battery pack, that takes you 20 miles?

If it's 1 KWH, that's only 50 watt hours per mile.  At about 600 mg CO2 per KWH (assuming 50% coal, and 21% oil & gas for your electrical generation), that's about 30 mg/mile, or about 10% of the average passenger vehicle in the US.

Seattle power has a lot of hydro, so the value there is probably about 10mg/mile, or 3% of an average US car.

That's certainly less carbon intensive than any alternative, including manual cycling, given the 10x production & distribution energy overhead for food calories.

Ouch!, those things look pretty mean, BioD.  Are the Bird-b-gone people to be believed, when they claim the animal welfare people are OK with those medieval torture devices?

Have fun at the fair, Amazing.  Actually, though, I would have thought that the woman who will speaking on Sunday is more your type than Helen Caldicott.  I love that experiment she did, going a year without shopping.

If I were there, of course, I would barely be ready for the babiest of beginners' workshops.  So take good notes, and let us know what transpired, including hopefully the obligatory part about how "a good time was had by all."

The green hog is a great idea -- except perhaps the actual colors should be canary-yellow and chrome.  But I think what you and BioD both need to realize is that for green hogs and battery-bikes to be considered sexy and prestigious, for a good cause, they have to look distinctive somehow.  They should not be too easily mistaken for ordinary motorcycles and bikes.

An ignorant person such as myself, for example, totally unsophisticated about these things, unlike all those people out on the West Coast, would not think there is anything distinctive or exceptional about BioD's battery-bike, just from looking at it.  Such a person might only begin to be curious, after seeing BioD miraculously float up hills with a minimum of effort.

These things can be subtle.  Take the Prius.  In a general sort of way, it looks like just another car.  But it does indeed have its own distinctive styling, and once one knows to identify that styling with the kind of car that the Prius is, then the task is accomplished.  Just last week, there was a Prius parked across the street from my building.  I think that was the first Prius I have ever seen with my own eyes.  But I cannot be sure: for all I know, I may have seen many Priuses on other occasions, but last week was only the first time that I recognized one as such.

As for the eternal question, What Do Women Want?:  How would you complete this sentence?

When women notice a man on account of the vehicle he is driving (or riding), it is because:

a. it costs a lot of money, which means he is rich, and women will consider having only a rich man as a partner.

b. it is a very clever, sophisticated, cutting-edge device, difficult to learn how to handle, which means he is smart, and women will consider having only a smart man as a partner.

c. it is a fast, powerful vehicle, which means he is forceful and strong and assertive, and women will consider having only a forceful, strong and assertive man as a partner.

d. it is green, which means he is sensitive and conscientious about social and environmental issues, and women will consider having only a socially and environmentally sensitive and conscientious man as a partner.

In what I wrote earlier about the "old sock," of course I was being facetious.  But really, I worry that BioD's battery-bike will have a hard time coming to seem sexy and prestigious, inasmuch as it seems to take the athleticism out of riding a bike.  We already get a sense of that in the comment by BioD's miffed acquaintance at the basketball court, who declared that battery-bikers are "cheating."  To say nothing of Odograph's agenda.

So, do something athletic, BioD, have a race, a marathon.  You and MontanaEBiker can organize it.  Victory will depend on who best manages the resources of the bike and his body.

Chickens are our cousins! So are other sensitive animals! Enough is enough! No more factory farms!

There it is Canis, the beauty of the green machines.  If they are amazing they will tend to catch the attention of people who wish to bring on an amazing new age.

I agree on the appearance, it's important to be distinctive in the design.  Form follows function, organically.  Organic machines?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

One thing I didn't mention when BioD passed those guys "racing" is that such folks commonly put in 50-76 mile training days, and 100-200 mile races on the weekends.

When I go for a coffee on the mountain bike it's fun to pass a racing bike, but I try to stay humble.  I don't really know how many miles that guy has gone, or will go, that day.

But again, I really don't see why you all are pushing the competition (other than that speed and competition are hardwired in the male, as Canis suggests).

If it is "fun" to "go fast" on speed (and sprint) oriented electric bikes, just do that and enjoy that.

For that kind of fun, I just point my mountain bike downhill (after the invigorating climb)... but I've said, biking has a lot of different sub-cultures.

(In this context, "invigorating" ... what a wonderful word ;-)

Oh wow!  Optibike is the way to go!  Climbing Pike's Peak with no loss of breath is just the sort of thing that any woman should ask of a potential husband.

And meanwhile, that EGo scooter sure is cute.  But the rider cannot add to its power, can he/she.

As for competitiveness being "hard-wired" in the human male, I would love to take credit for the idea, but am afraid I cannot.  Plus, it seems to be something of special interest to BioD.

Chickens are our cousins! So are other sensitive animals! Enough is enough! No more factory farms!

I was pulling up to a light, facing California's Pacific Coast Highway.  I first noticed in the left lane a newish convertible Porsche, with a tanned-looking guy in it.  I then noticed a Toyota Echo in the middle lane, with a young woman in it.  As I coasted down I noticed that the Echo was plastered with enviro stickers.  As I stopped, the girl looked over at me (in my Prius) and smiled.

I laughed and laughed ... that was never going to happen again in a million years.

What a happy sign of hope!  Odo, your Prius-at-the-red-light anecdote will surely warm the cockles of BioD's heart.

Which just goes to show: Never say Never!

Chickens are our cousins! So are other sensitive animals! Enough is enough! No more factory farms!

Hehehey, well two of the electric hybrid bicycle display people at the Midwest Renewable Energy Fair knew of your project.   The Zap people said they donated a bike to Grist to raffle off for fundraising.  I told them to check out your latest video.

The other guy had a DeWalt powered bike with 4 batteries two connected in series then the sets in parallel for 72 volts.  He had a wheel hub motor also.  His inovation was that the whole electric part detached from the front end with 4 levers and the regular wheel reattached.

He had awesome power, as one would expect from 4 batteries.  He figured the wheel hub motor was around 1 hp.

Helen Caldicott was awesome!!!  But did not take to my flattery at the book signing, hehey.  Oh well.

She dispelled the popular nuclear advocate myth that waste can simply be dispersed widely in the ocean and cause no harm.  Why?  Biological concentration.  all life, including us and the organisms we lunch on, tend to act like a giant filtration system, reconcentrating the rad elements.  As she pointed out, the various waste elements tend to collect in the thyroid and reproductive organs.

Then she explained how mutation is proceding to increase exponentially now generation to generation.  1600 genetic diseases due to mutation are known now.  The recessive genes reproduce through the population and the whole life destroying process grows with life itself.

She told us that a reactor in Sweden recently came a few minutes from meltdown as grid power failed, then two backup diesel generators.  The third backup was started 2 minutes before meltdown.  She also said the Hershey's products were still not safe (due to three mile island)and says they still haven't sued her over this repeated claim.

Helen said that one more incident like Chernobyl or three mile island would kill nuclear power.  Forever.

Then she scared us all by describing how easily terrorists could sabotage a nuclear fuel rod storage pool(BTW, she said that nuclear engineers do call them "swimming pools', it's a joke son, swim there and die in a minute).  And described other simple ways to cause meltdown,  yikes.  Even lightning destroying the electrical system at a nuclear plant could do it.  Once those cooling pumps stop, it is inevitable.

She says halliburton built a rail line in australia recently to transport nuclear waste from other countries to a dump on aboriginal land.  Two tribal chiefs were bribed 12 million dollars to ok the dump.

And Austrailia has no nuclear power plants!!!  Amazingly corrupt.  It would be brought in by ship then rail line to the dump.

Lots of other great displays at the fair.  Wisconsin Electric is paying people 22 cents per kwh for their pV kwh!!!!!!  And they raised the net metering limit on wind power systems from 20 kw to 100kw voluntarily!!!  That means one can now get payed 10 cents per kwh x 100kwh, or up to 10 bucks per hour for ones wind power sold into the grid from home, farm, or small business with a wind system.

240 bucks per day?  Pretty good supplemental family income!

I bugged the Prius display guy about GM getting ahead with the Volt.  And how Toyota needed to dump the parallel hybrid and go serial.  It was funny he got pretty purturbed but then got into the happy warrior spirit (we exhibit here on the blog).  We have a bet for lunch for upcoming energy fairs.  I told him Toyota would go serial or falter, hehey.

Didn't get a chance to harangue the Honda guy though.

There is a huge grassroots groundswell out there to save the planet.  Hope it gets harnessed in time.  i kept telling people to vol;unteeer gfor their local democratic party, that even though democrats take corporate money too, at least as a volunteer they will actually listen to us.

I described how our new congressman has turned against ethanol with our pressure.  A small win.  now if he'll vote for plugin hybrid vehicle fleets for government?  Who knows?

There was a Hymotion converted prius there. 12.5k for the extra lithium(a123) battery pack and software.  They need no new chips now!  The first plugins of the prius cost 40k because of computer replacement.

The couple that drive the Hymotion Prius (only available to government or corporations, not individuals) said it get around 45 miles on battery alone.  But only goes 25 on battery, over that speed the infernal combustion planetkiller kicks in, hehey.

The Toyota guy claims american drivers are "too aggressive" for plugins. they won't drive under 25.  That is why I told him the Volt design is coming, no power limitation like the Hymotion Prius has  in battery mode.  He wouldn't relent.

The couple that drives the plugin Prius claimed the Hymotion option will be available to the public for 9.5 k soon.   I wonder if it voids the Toyota warranty?  I bet it does.

Oh one more thing.  The Toyota guy said if the Prius runs out of gas it burns itself up trying to start the engine with the electric motor.  I asked, doesn't that call for a safety device opf some kind to shut that down?  he said yes, it's called the gas guage!  Don't run out of gas!!  Hehehey.  kinda wacky, the guy and the engineering behind that.

Grist if you want a full article on the Midwest Renewable Energy Fair email me.  I can go back tomorow too.  Editing is fine by me also.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

That was great, Amazing.  The business about Wisconsin Electric encouraging photovoltaic and wind is nice.

So how many people were there?  Did you gather there was unanimity or varied opinions about big issues such as nuclear, biofuels and coal-to-liquid?

I hope you get to talk to the Honda representative.

Chickens are our cousins! So are other sensitive animals! Enough is enough! No more factory farms!

Amazingdrx wrote: She told us that a reactor in Sweden recently came a few minutes from meltdown as grid power failed, then two backup diesel generators.  The third backup was started 2 minutes before meltdown.

It is interesting that someone apparently thinks that a reactor would melt down if merely its backup generators were all to fail to start upon loss of grid power. Do you think this, also?
.

Amazingdrx wrote: Helen said that one more incident like Chernobyl or three mile island would kill nuclear power.

That is like saying that if a UPS man were to drop a parcel, it would kill the parcel-delivery industry.
.

Amazingdrx wrote: she said that nuclear engineers do call them "swimming pools', it's a joke son, swim there and die in a minute

What would it be that a spent-fuel-pool-swimmer would be rapidly dying of?
.

Amazingdrx wrote: other simple ways to cause meltdown [...]  Even lightning destroying the electrical system at a nuclear plant could do it.  Once those cooling pumps stop, it is inevitable.

What makes you think that lightning destroying the electrical system, or the cooling pumps stopping, at a nuclear plant would cause a meltdown?
.

Amazingdrx wrote: yikes

Why would the prospect of a reactor-core meltdown scare you?

Lots of biodiesel home conversion units on display, but nothing on ethanol.  There were a couple straight vegetable oil converted cars too.

Solar heating, PV, wind, super insulated concrete building systems, geothermal heat pump heating, dominated the displays.  Small business distributors backed by larger companies.  Wind mill blades were mainly plastic.  There's a step forward.

Overall a very progressive, friendly, positive crowd.  It's a hopefull sign.  i kind of wondered why we democrats did not have a display booth?  I'm going to get on that next year.  There were no orgs explicitly dedicated to pro-renewable legal reform either.

This movement really needs two things.  Better organization in terms of lobbying for legislation and mass production to lower costs.

With the WE payment of 22 cents per kwh for PV electricity a 4 to 5 year payback on solar PV is here already.  And with their acceptance of 100kw of wind power at the going rate, around 10 cents per kwh, a 200k investment in a 100kw wind system would have a similar payback in a very good wind location, like along one of the great lakes we are blessed with here.

That 22 cents ought to apply to 1 to 5 kw home wind installations as well.  But for the larger farm or business wind machines the raised 100kw limit for 10 cents is a great step (the net metering rule limited that price to under 20kw, over that you get about 5 cents, very hard to pay off a system at that low price).  If the price payed to investors was 22 cents per kwh for up to 100kw wind too?  It would be a wind power gold rush here!!

I guess a whole display is needed explaining all this pictorially that is repeated on a website that legislators and media can access in response to prompting from public activism behind the cause of utility rate reform to enable renewables.  it would make a nice display right nexct to the democratic party display, hehey.  Maybe next year I'll get that in gear?

22 cents per kwh for wind, solar, and biogas of any size?  There, that's a re-evolution.

How about tax credits for conservation from solar heating and geothermal heating/cooling equivalent to that 22 cents?  For every kwh your system saves you get 22 cents in tax credit, up to a 1000 dollar per year limit?  something on that order of radical change would be good.  And get rid of enough gHG to save the planet in 10 years.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

Going home after this conversation last week, I saw three ~18 year-olds on fixies.  Coincidently(?) they all had peg-legged blue jeans, white t-shirts, and (of course) no helmets.

I'm interested in your mounting bracket for the Dewalt series set.  Are you using the battery charger for the application?