<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for USDA inaction supports feedlot-style]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by jdhlax http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/ Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:25:12 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/1 Cattle In The West Are Hooved Locusts

It's nothing but cattle industry propaganda and lies that there's even a such thing as "green grazing" in the western U.S. Grass fed cows are NOT easier on the environment, they're far worse for it.  Cattle are not native, are much bigger and heavier than the native ungulates, and are grazers instead of browsers like the native ungulates.  The cattle industry has done more environmental damage to the West than any other industry, turning our native grasslands into deserts or, in the best case scenario, non-native grass and shrub lands.  Virtually all of the western riparian areas have been ruined by cattle, and thousands of miles of fences mar the west so that ranchers can keep their herds.  Ranchers are also the main killers both of native predators such as wolves, because they're afraid that the predators will kill their cattle, and of native ungulates, because they view them as competing with their cattle.

It is certainly correct that giving cows chemicals like anti-biotics, which has to be done where the cattle aren't grass fed, is also environmentally harmful.  So, what's the solution?  Stop eating beef.  It's unhealthy, totally unnatural food.  There are plenty of other meat choices available.  The most ecologically benign - and healthy - ones are from wild animals, such as venison and fish.

]]> Cattle In The West Are Hooved Locusts

It's nothing but cattle industry propaganda and lies that there's even a such thing as "green grazing" in the western U.S. Grass fed cows are NOT easier on the environment, they're far worse for it.  Cattle are not native, are much bigger and heavier than the native ungulates, and are grazers instead of browsers like the native ungulates.  The cattle industry has done more environmental damage to the West than any other industry, turning our native grasslands into deserts or, in the best case scenario, non-native grass and shrub lands.  Virtually all of the western riparian areas have been ruined by cattle, and thousands of miles of fences mar the west so that ranchers can keep their herds.  Ranchers are also the main killers both of native predators such as wolves, because they're afraid that the predators will kill their cattle, and of native ungulates, because they view them as competing with their cattle.

It is certainly correct that giving cows chemicals like anti-biotics, which has to be done where the cattle aren't grass fed, is also environmentally harmful.  So, what's the solution?  Stop eating beef.  It's unhealthy, totally unnatural food.  There are plenty of other meat choices available.  The most ecologically benign - and healthy - ones are from wild animals, such as venison and fish.

]]> Comment #2 by Stentor http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/ Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:19:32 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/2 volume matters

Number five is telling, too. For Horizon, volume, not quality, rules.
Sure, number five is about volume. But numbers one through four are about quality.

And I don't think number five is necessarily unreasonable. Organic products are already substantially more expensive than regular ones, so if the companies don't look for efficiency somewhere, they'll go out of business. In a more directly green sense, buying from a lot of tiny producers isn't so great for the environment -- the more trips they have to make to pick up tiny loads of milk, the more gas they use.

]]> volume matters

Number five is telling, too. For Horizon, volume, not quality, rules.
Sure, number five is about volume. But numbers one through four are about quality.

And I don't think number five is necessarily unreasonable. Organic products are already substantially more expensive than regular ones, so if the companies don't look for efficiency somewhere, they'll go out of business. In a more directly green sense, buying from a lot of tiny producers isn't so great for the environment -- the more trips they have to make to pick up tiny loads of milk, the more gas they use.

]]> Comment #3 by amanda http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/ Thu, 20 Oct 2005 00:50:25 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/3 So what's the solution?

"Stop eating beef" won't do much about the dairy industry.

]]> So what's the solution?

"Stop eating beef" won't do much about the dairy industry.

]]> Comment #4 by Tom Philpott http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/ Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:31:35 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/4 re: volume matters, etc.

I'll let jdhlax's rather broadsided critique pass, except to note that confinement dairy farming may look more environmentally friendly, because it doesn't take up as much space; but that view obscures the vast fields of corn and soy needed to sustain confinement animal husbandry.

Now to Stentor. Horizon's first three requirements for producers can be condensed into one: be certified organic. The fourth is a requirement for all commercial dairy meant for fluid consumption; it has mostly to do with butterfat content. Now for the volume requirement.

In the system in which Horizon's parent, Dean Foods, thrives, and helped create, it indeed makes sense for dairy farms to be large, volume-minded businesses. In that system , each region essentially has one monopoly buyer/processor, and that entity wields tremendous leverage over price. Farmers in that scenario face two choices: get bigger (and take on debt), or get out of the business. Here is a story about a small conventional dairy farm in my area (that let its cows graze in temperate times and fed them farm-grown forage over winter) that recently took the second option, after Dean Foods shuttered the nearest processing unit.

Not all dairy buyers behave the same as Dean Foods/Horizon, though. Organic Valley and Natural by Nature (in the northeast) both respect small farms--and insist that farms provide pasture for milking cows.

Some places, New York City for example, are lucky enough to be served by small dairy farms with their own processing equipment (i.e, Ronnybrook Dairy).

Ideally, regions and cities would reinvest in the food-processing infrastructure that crumbled after World War II. That would certainly make it easier for small farms to thrive--and easier for consumers to access delicious and health-giving (sorry jdhlax) milk from grass-fed cows.

]]> re: volume matters, etc.

I'll let jdhlax's rather broadsided critique pass, except to note that confinement dairy farming may look more environmentally friendly, because it doesn't take up as much space; but that view obscures the vast fields of corn and soy needed to sustain confinement animal husbandry.

Now to Stentor. Horizon's first three requirements for producers can be condensed into one: be certified organic. The fourth is a requirement for all commercial dairy meant for fluid consumption; it has mostly to do with butterfat content. Now for the volume requirement.

In the system in which Horizon's parent, Dean Foods, thrives, and helped create, it indeed makes sense for dairy farms to be large, volume-minded businesses. In that system , each region essentially has one monopoly buyer/processor, and that entity wields tremendous leverage over price. Farmers in that scenario face two choices: get bigger (and take on debt), or get out of the business. Here is a story about a small conventional dairy farm in my area (that let its cows graze in temperate times and fed them farm-grown forage over winter) that recently took the second option, after Dean Foods shuttered the nearest processing unit.

Not all dairy buyers behave the same as Dean Foods/Horizon, though. Organic Valley and Natural by Nature (in the northeast) both respect small farms--and insist that farms provide pasture for milking cows.

Some places, New York City for example, are lucky enough to be served by small dairy farms with their own processing equipment (i.e, Ronnybrook Dairy).

Ideally, regions and cities would reinvest in the food-processing infrastructure that crumbled after World War II. That would certainly make it easier for small farms to thrive--and easier for consumers to access delicious and health-giving (sorry jdhlax) milk from grass-fed cows.

]]> Comment #5 by jdhlax http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/ Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:47:27 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/5 What's The Solution?

"'Stop eating beef' won't do much about the dairy industry."  Sorry, you're correct.  Stop eating dairy, too.  Or at least cut way down on it.  Again, it's totally unnatural unhealthy food.  The only ones who need milk are babies, and the only healthy milk for them comes from their mothers.  If the only dairy consumed by people, after being weaned, was eating an occasional pizza or some other food with dairy, the dairy industry wouldn't be causing these problems 'cause they wouldn't be producing anywhere near as much.

And Tom, the reason that you had to "pass" on my comments is that there's no meritorious rebuttal to them.  I can cite to a massive amount of literature and many studies that show the massive amount of harm caused by cattle and sheep in the West.

]]> What's The Solution?

"'Stop eating beef' won't do much about the dairy industry."  Sorry, you're correct.  Stop eating dairy, too.  Or at least cut way down on it.  Again, it's totally unnatural unhealthy food.  The only ones who need milk are babies, and the only healthy milk for them comes from their mothers.  If the only dairy consumed by people, after being weaned, was eating an occasional pizza or some other food with dairy, the dairy industry wouldn't be causing these problems 'cause they wouldn't be producing anywhere near as much.

And Tom, the reason that you had to "pass" on my comments is that there's no meritorious rebuttal to them.  I can cite to a massive amount of literature and many studies that show the massive amount of harm caused by cattle and sheep in the West.

]]> Comment #6 by Lyle http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/ Sun, 23 Oct 2005 02:19:37 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/6 What's The Solution?

jdhlax, as dairy farmer who has an organic dairy farm, I am curuous as to how your opinions about dairy have been formed. So far I have not seen much evidence of any extensive knowledge about dairy, or cows and the food that comes from them.

]]> What's The Solution?

jdhlax, as dairy farmer who has an organic dairy farm, I am curuous as to how your opinions about dairy have been formed. So far I have not seen much evidence of any extensive knowledge about dairy, or cows and the food that comes from them.

]]> Comment #7 by jdhlax http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/ Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:46:49 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-now-organic-cow/7 My Dairy Opinions

First, I want to commend you for at least farming organically.  Second, I hope you don't take my comments personally: the economics of this society are based on destroying the Earth, so the vast majrority of people have jobs that do just that.  So, this is not an attack on you.  That said, here are the reasons that I think dairy products are harmful:

It is unnatural for anyone but babies to drink milk, and the only natural kind comes from their mothers;
It is unnatural, and harmful to the animal's babies, to take milk from an animal that's meant for her babies;
Most of the world (the pre-European Americas, Austrailia, Asia except for India and the mountainous regions north of there) do not traditionally eat dairy.  Dairy is just another bad thing brought here from Europe;
Dairy is medically harmful to many people and is unhealthy for everyone.  For example, some people have a natural lactose intolerance, some get ear infections from dairy.  (I personally got frequent earaches as a child, because my parents made me drink mild daily.  Unfortunately, it was unknown at the time that the dairy causes ear infections, so they removed my tonsils, a common solution at the time!)  The reason that dairy is generally unhealthy is because it is far too rich, a quality only needed by babies and harmful to adults in general, especially the vast majority in this society who have sedentary lives.


]]> My Dairy Opinions

First, I want to commend you for at least farming organically.  Second, I hope you don't take my comments personally: the economics of this society are based on destroying the Earth, so the vast majrority of people have jobs that do just that.  So, this is not an attack on you.  That said, here are the reasons that I think dairy products are harmful:

It is unnatural for anyone but babies to drink milk, and the only natural kind comes from their mothers;
It is unnatural, and harmful to the animal's babies, to take milk from an animal that's meant for her babies;
Most of the world (the pre-European Americas, Austrailia, Asia except for India and the mountainous regions north of there) do not traditionally eat dairy.  Dairy is just another bad thing brought here from Europe;
Dairy is medically harmful to many people and is unhealthy for everyone.  For example, some people have a natural lactose intolerance, some get ear infections from dairy.  (I personally got frequent earaches as a child, because my parents made me drink mild daily.  Unfortunately, it was unknown at the time that the dairy causes ear infections, so they removed my tonsils, a common solution at the time!)  The reason that dairy is generally unhealthy is because it is far too rich, a quality only needed by babies and harmful to adults in general, especially the vast majority in this society who have sedentary lives.


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