<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for We have another billion-dollar resource at risk: the ocean]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by JStack http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 05:49:52 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/1 For why these systems behave

in similiar fashion, check out:

http://www.resalliance.org

]]> For why these systems behave

in similiar fashion, check out:

http://www.resalliance.org

]]> Comment #2 by Colin Wright http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 06:24:48 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/2 Provactive article!

Andrew, could you comment on the recent study that showed great success if fisherman are given a share of the quota?Scientists report on an alternative to cutthroat competition, finding that a quota system giving fishermen exclusive rights to a portion of the catch can preserve fisheries and help stocks recover.
 

Similar considerations could apply to collapsing economic entities: give employees a right to own and manage failing companies.


]]> Provactive article!

Andrew, could you comment on the recent study that showed great success if fisherman are given a share of the quota?Scientists report on an alternative to cutthroat competition, finding that a quota system giving fishermen exclusive rights to a portion of the catch can preserve fisheries and help stocks recover.
 

Similar considerations could apply to collapsing economic entities: give employees a right to own and manage failing companies.


]]> Comment #3 by sindark http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 07:27:37 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/3 Not good enough

The study found that fisheries "that switched to individual quotas were only half as likely to collapse."

While that is certainly a big improvement, it clearly isn't a solution. Even with ITQs, half the fisheries that would have failed before still do.

If we are going to maintain viable marine environments, we need to do better.

a sibilant intake of breath

]]> Not good enough

The study found that fisheries "that switched to individual quotas were only half as likely to collapse."

While that is certainly a big improvement, it clearly isn't a solution. Even with ITQs, half the fisheries that would have failed before still do.

If we are going to maintain viable marine environments, we need to do better.

a sibilant intake of breath

]]> Comment #4 by Sam Wells http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:15:23 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/4 Religion and economics

The only similarity I see between the fishing industry and the market is that people had the belief that the "system" would work perfectly rational using a free-market approach, with some restrictions of course but virtually un-regulated otherwise.

It turns out that such Puritanical thinking was dead wrong. Some fisheries (not all) collapsed. Some markets (not all) collapsed as well.

The recent issue of Harper's has a wonderful article about the recent market collapse and its religious history. I wonder how one would re-write that for what happened with the fish? -sam

Onward through the fog

]]> Religion and economics

The only similarity I see between the fishing industry and the market is that people had the belief that the "system" would work perfectly rational using a free-market approach, with some restrictions of course but virtually un-regulated otherwise.

It turns out that such Puritanical thinking was dead wrong. Some fisheries (not all) collapsed. Some markets (not all) collapsed as well.

The recent issue of Harper's has a wonderful article about the recent market collapse and its religious history. I wonder how one would re-write that for what happened with the fish? -sam

Onward through the fog

]]> Comment #5 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:08:59 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/5 Grand Island

A book at the visitors center says that before white men came the fish "were like a silvery shoal in the shallows of the island".

Lake Superior still has a fishery, but it is small local family fishing businesses.  There are no more silver shoals.

There is only one way to protect local fish or local economies, prevent industrial commercial exploitation by mega corporate operators.  

Regulation will do that, but enforcement is necessary.  Enforcing financial regulations is possible.

Enforcing fishing restrictions with multinational corporate players would be very difficult.  So it is necessary to install devices that prevent the huge nets they use from working.

Floating energy platforms ringing the coastline that have underwater blades that cut nets is the answer.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Grand Island

A book at the visitors center says that before white men came the fish "were like a silvery shoal in the shallows of the island".

Lake Superior still has a fishery, but it is small local family fishing businesses.  There are no more silver shoals.

There is only one way to protect local fish or local economies, prevent industrial commercial exploitation by mega corporate operators.  

Regulation will do that, but enforcement is necessary.  Enforcing financial regulations is possible.

Enforcing fishing restrictions with multinational corporate players would be very difficult.  So it is necessary to install devices that prevent the huge nets they use from working.

Floating energy platforms ringing the coastline that have underwater blades that cut nets is the answer.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Comment #6 by saluki http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:52:56 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/6 Democrats were bought by Fanny and Freddie

Here is the proof that it is the Democrats that are responsible for the current financial crisis.  Here we have the Republicans trying to regulate Fanny and Freddie, and here we have the Democrats fighting to keep it unregulated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&feature=re ...

]]> Democrats were bought by Fanny and Freddie

Here is the proof that it is the Democrats that are responsible for the current financial crisis.  Here we have the Republicans trying to regulate Fanny and Freddie, and here we have the Democrats fighting to keep it unregulated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&feature=re ...

]]> Comment #7 by guade00 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:59:33 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/7 That's nice to see.

It's nice to see that Republicans actually believe in more regulation. That's an intellectual progression for the party that has been almost completely co-opted by big business and the religious right.

But I believe you really don't want to get into a pissing match on which party wants to deregulate more on an environmental news and commentary site; this conversation is really about the fish, in case you didn't read the Sharpless piece.

]]> That's nice to see.

It's nice to see that Republicans actually believe in more regulation. That's an intellectual progression for the party that has been almost completely co-opted by big business and the religious right.

But I believe you really don't want to get into a pissing match on which party wants to deregulate more on an environmental news and commentary site; this conversation is really about the fish, in case you didn't read the Sharpless piece.

]]> Comment #8 by saluki http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:32:01 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/8 The right amount of regulation

It's nice to see that Republicans actually believe in more regulation.

No, that's the position that would be used by a brain dead leftists.  Republicans believe in the minimum amount of regulation needed to make things function correctly.  Leftists believe in regulating everything to death, except in cases where the business is pushing their political agenda.  Then they want no regulation at all.  Fanny and Freddy were pushing the Democratic agenda of making loans to people that couldn't pay them back, so of course they wanted no regulation on it.  Republicans saw that Fanny and Freddy were getting too large, that their risk was way too high, and that it placed the financial system at risk.  They explained this to the Democrats, and of course the Democrats stone walled them.

]]> The right amount of regulation

It's nice to see that Republicans actually believe in more regulation.

No, that's the position that would be used by a brain dead leftists.  Republicans believe in the minimum amount of regulation needed to make things function correctly.  Leftists believe in regulating everything to death, except in cases where the business is pushing their political agenda.  Then they want no regulation at all.  Fanny and Freddy were pushing the Democratic agenda of making loans to people that couldn't pay them back, so of course they wanted no regulation on it.  Republicans saw that Fanny and Freddy were getting too large, that their risk was way too high, and that it placed the financial system at risk.  They explained this to the Democrats, and of course the Democrats stone walled them.

]]> Comment #9 by Andrew Sharpless http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:52:26 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/9 For Colin

Thanks for your question about the study which compared the status of a 121 fisheries using "catch shares" - a form of privatization - with the more than 11,000 fisheries that do not.  This article, as reported in an article in LA Times and elsewhere, concluded that privatization correlated with more healthy fisheries.  

Andy Rosenberg, a fisheries expert at the University of New Hampshire, quoted by Ken Weiss in the same LA Times article, offered a good response when he noted  "it's not like catch shares solve all of the problems of fisheries management."   He also noted that New Zealand's orange roughy stocks nose-dived despite the switch to catch shares in the early '90s.

According to the LA Times article, Rosenberg went on to say "It remains crucial for governments to limit the total catch to keep stocks healthy enough to reproduce. And then there's the problem of fairly distributing the shares, or quotas. Inevitably, some fishermen will feel shortchanged and scream that the government 'has stolen our heritage.'"

"The study's authors," according to the LA Times reporter, "acknowledge that catch shares are not a panacea."

Catch shares do an excellent job at stopping the "fishing derby" in which fishermen race to catch as many fish as they can before the sector quota is reached. They also can make it easier for fishermen to reduce bycatch, since they have more time to catch their share.

However, they do not, as the free market idealogues would have it, solve the need for careful, scientifically based quotas, and reasonable and practical limits on destruction of nursery areas and counting, capping and controlling bycatch. All this requires a strong, independent government fishery manager with a backbone and a strong staff of scientists behind him.

Andrew Sharpless CEO Oceana

]]> For Colin

Thanks for your question about the study which compared the status of a 121 fisheries using "catch shares" - a form of privatization - with the more than 11,000 fisheries that do not.  This article, as reported in an article in LA Times and elsewhere, concluded that privatization correlated with more healthy fisheries.  

Andy Rosenberg, a fisheries expert at the University of New Hampshire, quoted by Ken Weiss in the same LA Times article, offered a good response when he noted  "it's not like catch shares solve all of the problems of fisheries management."   He also noted that New Zealand's orange roughy stocks nose-dived despite the switch to catch shares in the early '90s.

According to the LA Times article, Rosenberg went on to say "It remains crucial for governments to limit the total catch to keep stocks healthy enough to reproduce. And then there's the problem of fairly distributing the shares, or quotas. Inevitably, some fishermen will feel shortchanged and scream that the government 'has stolen our heritage.'"

"The study's authors," according to the LA Times reporter, "acknowledge that catch shares are not a panacea."

Catch shares do an excellent job at stopping the "fishing derby" in which fishermen race to catch as many fish as they can before the sector quota is reached. They also can make it easier for fishermen to reduce bycatch, since they have more time to catch their share.

However, they do not, as the free market idealogues would have it, solve the need for careful, scientifically based quotas, and reasonable and practical limits on destruction of nursery areas and counting, capping and controlling bycatch. All this requires a strong, independent government fishery manager with a backbone and a strong staff of scientists behind him.

Andrew Sharpless CEO Oceana

]]> Comment #10 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/ Thu, 09 Oct 2008 02:58:52 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/how-is-lehman-brothers-like-a-cod-fish/10 Saluki,

Let me guess. Fishery collapse is another "brain dead lefty" lie, or better yet, is actually caused by same.

You right wingers need to get your stories straight. Bill O'Reilly says both parties are to blame and for once in his life he's right. He's called for "SEC Chairman Christopher Cox (a Republican) to resign, Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd to quit, and House Finance Chief Barney Frank to step down from his position."

Not to mention that Freddie and Fanny are not the sole cause of this meltdown. The car companies have been heading for insolvency for some time now having chosen to build corn ethanol (also the fault of both parties) powered SUVs instead of hybrids and the war has been burying us with debt for many years after the original mission accomplished.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Saluki,

Let me guess. Fishery collapse is another "brain dead lefty" lie, or better yet, is actually caused by same.

You right wingers need to get your stories straight. Bill O'Reilly says both parties are to blame and for once in his life he's right. He's called for "SEC Chairman Christopher Cox (a Republican) to resign, Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd to quit, and House Finance Chief Barney Frank to step down from his position."

Not to mention that Freddie and Fanny are not the sole cause of this meltdown. The car companies have been heading for insolvency for some time now having chosen to build corn ethanol (also the fault of both parties) powered SUVs instead of hybrids and the war has been burying us with debt for many years after the original mission accomplished.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]>