<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for How do you define "environmentalism"?]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by claxton6 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 09:21:25 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/1 "environmentalism"

I've been toying with this idea lately, but I haven't had to really put it concisely. Consider this a first draft:

I think that nature works through cycles, based on competition and cooperation, that exist at multiple scales within time and space. I think that modern human society lives in a way that, in any scale relevant to us, is fundamentally not cyclical--we have raw materials and we have wastes, and, except in rare instances, they don't support the complexity of life that nature's cycles (at comparable scale) do. Environmentalism, then, is trying to bring modern human society back into working in the same kind of cyclical way as the rest of nature.

FWIW, I'm happy to have this criticized, as I'm still figuring it out for myself.

]]> "environmentalism"

I've been toying with this idea lately, but I haven't had to really put it concisely. Consider this a first draft:

I think that nature works through cycles, based on competition and cooperation, that exist at multiple scales within time and space. I think that modern human society lives in a way that, in any scale relevant to us, is fundamentally not cyclical--we have raw materials and we have wastes, and, except in rare instances, they don't support the complexity of life that nature's cycles (at comparable scale) do. Environmentalism, then, is trying to bring modern human society back into working in the same kind of cyclical way as the rest of nature.

FWIW, I'm happy to have this criticized, as I'm still figuring it out for myself.

]]> Comment #2 by David Roberts http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 09:52:19 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/2 Claxton6,

I quite like that.

I have nothing in particular worthwhile to say about it. But I like it!

www.grist.org

]]> Claxton6,

I quite like that.

I have nothing in particular worthwhile to say about it. But I like it!

www.grist.org

]]> Comment #3 by Corey McKrill http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 10:28:18 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/3 Cool. Here's another stream of thought ...

Let's see how many sweeping generalizations I can fit into one paragraph:

In my view (also still working on it), "environmentalism" is about cultivating a greater awareness and understanding of life.  It's about seeing a bigger picture beyond the details of one's own life, beyond the details of one's culture and one's species.  I don't think the concept of "nature" is particularly necessary in a definition of environmentalism.  It's about peripheral vision.  People who call themselves environmentalists most often find themselves arguing against those that can't see beyond their own immediate gain ...

Grist's InterActivist ... creating a one-of-a-kind portrait of on-the-ground activism.

]]> Cool. Here's another stream of thought ...

Let's see how many sweeping generalizations I can fit into one paragraph:

In my view (also still working on it), "environmentalism" is about cultivating a greater awareness and understanding of life.  It's about seeing a bigger picture beyond the details of one's own life, beyond the details of one's culture and one's species.  I don't think the concept of "nature" is particularly necessary in a definition of environmentalism.  It's about peripheral vision.  People who call themselves environmentalists most often find themselves arguing against those that can't see beyond their own immediate gain ...

Grist's InterActivist ... creating a one-of-a-kind portrait of on-the-ground activism.

]]> Comment #4 by birdboy http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 11:06:27 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/4 simply put

Environmentalism is the defense of the Earth's natural ecosystems from unnatural (ie, man-made) threats.

Or a great way to scam stupid humans. Right, Captain?

a liberal in redsville

]]> simply put

Environmentalism is the defense of the Earth's natural ecosystems from unnatural (ie, man-made) threats.

Or a great way to scam stupid humans. Right, Captain?

a liberal in redsville

]]> Comment #5 by Jason D Scorse http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:59:16 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/5 Don't want to disrespect anyone but...

the above definitions make no sense:

nature's cycles also include cataclysmic events so i don't think we won't to bring ourselves back into "balance" with those

defense of ecosystems from man-made intrusions means collective suicide because there is no society that has ever not had major impacts on ecosystems

so......

here's my def:

Environmentalism is the belief that the non-human world both provides tremendous benefits to humans that are often not taken into account and has intrinsic value above and beyond the use value of humans. Environmentalists try to make sure that prices in the economy reflect the true cost of the pollution and environmental degradation that accompany all goods and services, encourage government provision and protection of environmental public goods, and try to enact policies that reflect an appreciation for the diversity of the non-human world. Not perfect, but hey, what is?

J.S.

]]> Don't want to disrespect anyone but...

the above definitions make no sense:

nature's cycles also include cataclysmic events so i don't think we won't to bring ourselves back into "balance" with those

defense of ecosystems from man-made intrusions means collective suicide because there is no society that has ever not had major impacts on ecosystems

so......

here's my def:

Environmentalism is the belief that the non-human world both provides tremendous benefits to humans that are often not taken into account and has intrinsic value above and beyond the use value of humans. Environmentalists try to make sure that prices in the economy reflect the true cost of the pollution and environmental degradation that accompany all goods and services, encourage government provision and protection of environmental public goods, and try to enact policies that reflect an appreciation for the diversity of the non-human world. Not perfect, but hey, what is?

J.S.

]]> Comment #6 by Backcut http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 13:08:07 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/6 Environmentalism vs. Preservationism

Yes, there IS a difference. In MY mind, true environmentalism is doing what is right for the environment. Preservationism is the blind act of trying to preserve a dynamic system that will not stay "preserved", especially in the way those humans want.

Hmmmmm, now that I read what I just wrote, I'm more confused about whether my own beliefs fall into a form of "preservationism", in regards to old growth ecosystems. I'll have to think about it some more.

OK, I thought about it some more and I've decided that I want to temporarily preserve old growth stands, through thinning projects, until more stands take on those old growth characteristics and ecosystem values we all so cherish.

]]> Environmentalism vs. Preservationism

Yes, there IS a difference. In MY mind, true environmentalism is doing what is right for the environment. Preservationism is the blind act of trying to preserve a dynamic system that will not stay "preserved", especially in the way those humans want.

Hmmmmm, now that I read what I just wrote, I'm more confused about whether my own beliefs fall into a form of "preservationism", in regards to old growth ecosystems. I'll have to think about it some more.

OK, I thought about it some more and I've decided that I want to temporarily preserve old growth stands, through thinning projects, until more stands take on those old growth characteristics and ecosystem values we all so cherish.

]]> Comment #7 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 23:14:50 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/7 don't know

I don't know how to define "environmentalism" but if I did, I'd do it in a way to scoop up as many people as possible, and make them (in their own minds) environmentalists.

I'd use the semantics strategically to reverse the separation that has been such a hindrance to "environmental" action.

Environmentalists are outsiders to mainstream American society.

]]> don't know

I don't know how to define "environmentalism" but if I did, I'd do it in a way to scoop up as many people as possible, and make them (in their own minds) environmentalists.

I'd use the semantics strategically to reverse the separation that has been such a hindrance to "environmental" action.

Environmentalists are outsiders to mainstream American society.

]]> Comment #8 by jdhlax http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 03:16:10 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/8 Another Take

Co-founder of Earth First! Dave Foreman once said that we (Earth First!ers) are not environmentalists, because the latter are concerned with human health issues.  He said that we are wilderness and wildlife advocates.  Personally, I don't know what to say about that, except that I hate to destroy whatever little power we have from our numbers.

Because Economist -- which tells where his priorities are -- criticized other posts, I'll criticize his.  Your points are both wrong.

1. The "cataclysmic events" you refer to are not only natural, they're necessary in order to have life as we know it.  For example, hurricanes move warmer air to cooler areas.  Without these "cataclysmic events" we wouldn't be here.  So, we do want to be in balance with those events.  As a Native American once said, all natural disasters are due to the ignorance of white men.  What he meant is that people need to organize their living within how nature works: don't live in flood plains or close to volcanoes, don't build things
that earthquakes or tornadoes will knock down, etc.

2. Your statement that "there is no society that has ever not had major impacts on ecosystems" is totally false.  In fact, only civilizations have had major negative impacts on ecosystems.  Hunter/gatherer societies have been able to exist in harmony with their ecosystems.

While I'm very willing to work with others with very different points of view, I am a strong supporter of VHEMT (http://www.vhemt.org/), but that's not a definition of environmentalism.  I think Birdboy nailed the way I'd define the word, though I'd also add restoration where humans have caused ecological harm.

Jeff Hoffman


]]> Another Take

Co-founder of Earth First! Dave Foreman once said that we (Earth First!ers) are not environmentalists, because the latter are concerned with human health issues.  He said that we are wilderness and wildlife advocates.  Personally, I don't know what to say about that, except that I hate to destroy whatever little power we have from our numbers.

Because Economist -- which tells where his priorities are -- criticized other posts, I'll criticize his.  Your points are both wrong.

1. The "cataclysmic events" you refer to are not only natural, they're necessary in order to have life as we know it.  For example, hurricanes move warmer air to cooler areas.  Without these "cataclysmic events" we wouldn't be here.  So, we do want to be in balance with those events.  As a Native American once said, all natural disasters are due to the ignorance of white men.  What he meant is that people need to organize their living within how nature works: don't live in flood plains or close to volcanoes, don't build things
that earthquakes or tornadoes will knock down, etc.

2. Your statement that "there is no society that has ever not had major impacts on ecosystems" is totally false.  In fact, only civilizations have had major negative impacts on ecosystems.  Hunter/gatherer societies have been able to exist in harmony with their ecosystems.

While I'm very willing to work with others with very different points of view, I am a strong supporter of VHEMT (http://www.vhemt.org/), but that's not a definition of environmentalism.  I think Birdboy nailed the way I'd define the word, though I'd also add restoration where humans have caused ecological harm.

Jeff Hoffman


]]> Comment #9 by Chris Schults http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 03:37:05 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/9 Comment police

Because Economist -- which tells where his priorities are -- criticized other posts, I'll criticize his.  Your points are both wrong.

Jeff,

Perhaps you missed the ground rules:

First, some ground rules. Responses can be as short or as long as you like. And as this is intended as an exercise to demonstrate the varying definitions of environmentalism, please refrain from criticizing other Gristmillers comments.

I want everyone to feel welcome to offer their own definitions without the fear of an attack by someone telling them that they are "wrong".

Think of this as a brainstorming session, where there are no bad ideas.

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> Comment police

Because Economist -- which tells where his priorities are -- criticized other posts, I'll criticize his.  Your points are both wrong.

Jeff,

Perhaps you missed the ground rules:

First, some ground rules. Responses can be as short or as long as you like. And as this is intended as an exercise to demonstrate the varying definitions of environmentalism, please refrain from criticizing other Gristmillers comments.

I want everyone to feel welcome to offer their own definitions without the fear of an attack by someone telling them that they are "wrong".

Think of this as a brainstorming session, where there are no bad ideas.

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> Comment #10 by kmp http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 04:24:05 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/10 Wikipedia...

..defines environmentalism as:


...a social movement which seeks to influence the political process by lobbying, education, activism and setting an example in order to protect natural resources and ecosystems. Some of the issues of concern for the environmental movement are pollution, species extinction, waste reduction, recycling, the threat of global warming and ozone depletion, and genetically engineered crops.

Interesting that most of the responses here focused on environmentalism as a belief structure rather than a social movement.  Personally, while this definition is rather bland, it rings true.



]]> Wikipedia...

..defines environmentalism as:


...a social movement which seeks to influence the political process by lobbying, education, activism and setting an example in order to protect natural resources and ecosystems. Some of the issues of concern for the environmental movement are pollution, species extinction, waste reduction, recycling, the threat of global warming and ozone depletion, and genetically engineered crops.

Interesting that most of the responses here focused on environmentalism as a belief structure rather than a social movement.  Personally, while this definition is rather bland, it rings true.



]]> Comment #11 by Jason D Scorse http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 04:53:03 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/11 interesing....

So you're saying that we should invite and welcome cataclysmic events like asteroids, tsnaumis, and floods because they're good and help nature to rebalance? tell that to the 200,000 dead in SE Asia

So we should go back to being hunter-gatherers in order to avoid ecological impacts? Since I think 99.9% of the world would disagree with this position, it is a non-started if you believe at all in democracy- and by the way, read Jared Diamond's book Collapse because many "primitive" societies trashed ecosystems as well

Yes, my definition matched my priorities, which place value on human civilization, which apparently you do not- I also place tremendous value on the non-human world as well

J.S.

]]> interesing....

So you're saying that we should invite and welcome cataclysmic events like asteroids, tsnaumis, and floods because they're good and help nature to rebalance? tell that to the 200,000 dead in SE Asia

So we should go back to being hunter-gatherers in order to avoid ecological impacts? Since I think 99.9% of the world would disagree with this position, it is a non-started if you believe at all in democracy- and by the way, read Jared Diamond's book Collapse because many "primitive" societies trashed ecosystems as well

Yes, my definition matched my priorities, which place value on human civilization, which apparently you do not- I also place tremendous value on the non-human world as well

J.S.

]]> Comment #12 by Chris Schults http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 05:11:31 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/12 Sigh

Good grief. This is exactly the type of squabbling I wanted to avoid. Let's end this back-and-forth now thank you.

Anyone else with something new to contribute?

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> Sigh

Good grief. This is exactly the type of squabbling I wanted to avoid. Let's end this back-and-forth now thank you.

Anyone else with something new to contribute?

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> Comment #13 by Jason D Scorse http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 05:32:43 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/13 I didn't realize animated discussion...

was a source of grief- if you simply want lists of people's definitions free of commentary and critique I guess I'll sign off- sounds pretty boring and uninspring to me- but, hey that's pretty much the intellectual climate amongst so many envrionmentalists so why change right???

]]> I didn't realize animated discussion...

was a source of grief- if you simply want lists of people's definitions free of commentary and critique I guess I'll sign off- sounds pretty boring and uninspring to me- but, hey that's pretty much the intellectual climate amongst so many envrionmentalists so why change right???

]]> Comment #14 by Chris Schults http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 05:47:50 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/14 Explanation

economist,

The trouble is that this sort of discussion quite often leads to a shouting match between a small number of individuals, which I fear discourages others from joining in. There are thousands of registered Gristmill users, and I would really like to hear from them as well.

The purpose of this particularly thread was not to arrive at one absolute definition of "environmentalism" (as some here obviously believe they possess) but that there is a myriad of definitions and perspectives.

If you want animated discussion, there is plenty of it here in Gristmill. I direct you to:

Environmental ethics

The evolutionary reason for humans?

Truce Almighty

What a green wants: An index-card manifesto (first draft)

These are just a few.

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> Explanation

economist,

The trouble is that this sort of discussion quite often leads to a shouting match between a small number of individuals, which I fear discourages others from joining in. There are thousands of registered Gristmill users, and I would really like to hear from them as well.

The purpose of this particularly thread was not to arrive at one absolute definition of "environmentalism" (as some here obviously believe they possess) but that there is a myriad of definitions and perspectives.

If you want animated discussion, there is plenty of it here in Gristmill. I direct you to:

Environmental ethics

The evolutionary reason for humans?

Truce Almighty

What a green wants: An index-card manifesto (first draft)

These are just a few.

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> Comment #15 by jdhlax http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 06:43:03 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/15 Sorry, But

Chris, I was perfectly willing to abide by the rules of this thread, but you didn't criticize Economist when he trashed another poster.  Why didn't you step in then instead of rebuking me, when all I did was respond to his breaking of your rules?

Jeff Hoffman

]]> Sorry, But

Chris, I was perfectly willing to abide by the rules of this thread, but you didn't criticize Economist when he trashed another poster.  Why didn't you step in then instead of rebuking me, when all I did was respond to his breaking of your rules?

Jeff Hoffman

]]> Comment #16 by Chris Schults http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 06:54:13 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/16 My bad

Jeff, my bad. I must have glanced over the first part of his post.

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> My bad

Jeff, my bad. I must have glanced over the first part of his post.

Look out! It's a media shower!

]]> Comment #17 by jdhlax http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Wed, 08 Mar 2006 07:18:16 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/17 Apology Accepted

Next beer's on me!

Jeff Hoffman

]]> Apology Accepted

Next beer's on me!

Jeff Hoffman

]]> Comment #18 by camacho749 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/ Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:06:35 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/how-do-you-define-environmentalism/18 RE: define "environmentalism"?

I am pleased to see this healthy discussion of the definition of "environmentalism." When I wrote the Soapbox piece for Grist about my work on the border with Mexico, this is essentially what I was trying to get at. I often don't use the "e-word," instead breaking it down into air, water, people's families and other things that people care about, and that makes it more real for them. I applaud this discussion, and encourage us to keep the dialogue going as a movement.

-Oliver Bernstein
Sierra Club

]]> RE: define "environmentalism"?

I am pleased to see this healthy discussion of the definition of "environmentalism." When I wrote the Soapbox piece for Grist about my work on the border with Mexico, this is essentially what I was trying to get at. I often don't use the "e-word," instead breaking it down into air, water, people's families and other things that people care about, and that makes it more real for them. I applaud this discussion, and encourage us to keep the dialogue going as a movement.

-Oliver Bernstein
Sierra Club

]]>