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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for A weekly roundup of greenish news from the capitol]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by GreenMom</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/hill-heap2/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:53:12 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/hill-heap2/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Value of a life</strong></p><p>Re the first bullet -- economics watchers beware -- the AP writer seems to fundamentally misunderstand how comparable different economic analyses are across EPA. &nbsp;He's comparing apples and oranges, and it's leading him to conclude that something nefarious is going on. &nbsp;While lots of nefarious policy changes have come out of EPA recently, this may not be one of them.</p><p>
The reason I'm counseling caution here is that different monetary values per life saved have fundamental bases that are inherently different across EPA rules. &nbsp;For example:</p><p>


&nbsp;the year for which you're adjusting -- i.e. are you looking at 1999 dollars, 2002 dollars, 2006 dollars, etc. (The inflation rate used varies less across EPA rules than the dollar year does).</p><p>
&nbsp;the compliance year of the regulation - i.e. the year the pollution reductions mandated by a rule are realized. &nbsp;The dollar figure for a rule that has a 2015 compliance year is going to be different than the dollar figure for a rule with a 2020 compliance year. &nbsp;</p><p>


I believe this may be the biggest mistake in the AP story -- he seems to have compared rules with different compliance years, and lo and behold, the dollar figures were significantly different.</p><p>
God knows the Administration has wreaked havoc with EPA rules over the last eight years -- but reporters still need to do their homework lest they look stupid. &nbsp;I think this guy just got it wrong.</p>
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				<p><strong>Value of a life</strong></p><p>Re the first bullet -- economics watchers beware -- the AP writer seems to fundamentally misunderstand how comparable different economic analyses are across EPA. &nbsp;He's comparing apples and oranges, and it's leading him to conclude that something nefarious is going on. &nbsp;While lots of nefarious policy changes have come out of EPA recently, this may not be one of them.</p><p>
The reason I'm counseling caution here is that different monetary values per life saved have fundamental bases that are inherently different across EPA rules. &nbsp;For example:</p><p>


&nbsp;the year for which you're adjusting -- i.e. are you looking at 1999 dollars, 2002 dollars, 2006 dollars, etc. (The inflation rate used varies less across EPA rules than the dollar year does).</p><p>
&nbsp;the compliance year of the regulation - i.e. the year the pollution reductions mandated by a rule are realized. &nbsp;The dollar figure for a rule that has a 2015 compliance year is going to be different than the dollar figure for a rule with a 2020 compliance year. &nbsp;</p><p>


I believe this may be the biggest mistake in the AP story -- he seems to have compared rules with different compliance years, and lo and behold, the dollar figures were significantly different.</p><p>
God knows the Administration has wreaked havoc with EPA rules over the last eight years -- but reporters still need to do their homework lest they look stupid. &nbsp;I think this guy just got it wrong.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by John former Marine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/hill-heap2/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:09:09 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/hill-heap2/2</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Incomplete information...</strong></p><p>Incomplete information is as bad as incorrect information. &nbsp;I think what the reporter was saying is that a born or naturalized citizen of the United States of America is worth $6.9M. &nbsp;At least those of us with degrees, good income, and comfortable lifestyles. &nbsp;Obviously, the Salvadorean who cleans toilets and mops the floors at the EPA buildings is not worth anything close to that figure. &nbsp;And the "illegal" Mexican who picks tomatoes sprayed with EPA-regulated pesticides is probably worth even less...in terms of dollars.</p><p>
Are kids that live in New Orleans neighborhoods on top of pesticide dumps worth $6.9M each? &nbsp;I think there is an assumption here that we live in an economic democracy. &nbsp;Perhaps $6.9M is the "average"...and, like everything else, since 10% of our population controls 80% of our wealth, I'm sure the "value", in terms of dollars, of that top 10% has gone up considerably in the past few years. &nbsp;In fact, the people at the top are probably "worth" $100 million or so each, maybe a lot more....which definitely entitles them to living in protected, clean, safe communities. &nbsp;If the value of the other 90% of us has gone down to...say...$1 million each, then I suppose it would follow that it's not so worthwhile to stop construction of a new coal-fired power plant upwind of our working-class communities, to limit the use of pesticides toxic to the human beings who pick our tomatoes, or to make a chemical plant upriver from a poor community clean up their act. &nbsp;A poor kid who gets leukemia is worth less than a rich kid.</p><p>
All of this economic news makes it clearer and clearer to me that environmental issues and social issues cannot be disconnected. &nbsp;As MLK said, we will never have true democracy until we have economic democracy. &nbsp;</p><p>
When we see numbers like this....that the average American (not counting illegals who do all the dirtiest work, I'm sure) has gone down in value, I would say it's safe to assume that what has really happened is that the value of working-class Americans has plummeted, working poor and immigrants has hit rock-bottom, and the rich are more "valuable" than ever before.</p><p>
&nbsp; 

<p>Il faut cultiver notre jardin.</p></p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>Incomplete information...</strong></p><p>Incomplete information is as bad as incorrect information. &nbsp;I think what the reporter was saying is that a born or naturalized citizen of the United States of America is worth $6.9M. &nbsp;At least those of us with degrees, good income, and comfortable lifestyles. &nbsp;Obviously, the Salvadorean who cleans toilets and mops the floors at the EPA buildings is not worth anything close to that figure. &nbsp;And the "illegal" Mexican who picks tomatoes sprayed with EPA-regulated pesticides is probably worth even less...in terms of dollars.</p><p>
Are kids that live in New Orleans neighborhoods on top of pesticide dumps worth $6.9M each? &nbsp;I think there is an assumption here that we live in an economic democracy. &nbsp;Perhaps $6.9M is the "average"...and, like everything else, since 10% of our population controls 80% of our wealth, I'm sure the "value", in terms of dollars, of that top 10% has gone up considerably in the past few years. &nbsp;In fact, the people at the top are probably "worth" $100 million or so each, maybe a lot more....which definitely entitles them to living in protected, clean, safe communities. &nbsp;If the value of the other 90% of us has gone down to...say...$1 million each, then I suppose it would follow that it's not so worthwhile to stop construction of a new coal-fired power plant upwind of our working-class communities, to limit the use of pesticides toxic to the human beings who pick our tomatoes, or to make a chemical plant upriver from a poor community clean up their act. &nbsp;A poor kid who gets leukemia is worth less than a rich kid.</p><p>
All of this economic news makes it clearer and clearer to me that environmental issues and social issues cannot be disconnected. &nbsp;As MLK said, we will never have true democracy until we have economic democracy. &nbsp;</p><p>
When we see numbers like this....that the average American (not counting illegals who do all the dirtiest work, I'm sure) has gone down in value, I would say it's safe to assume that what has really happened is that the value of working-class Americans has plummeted, working poor and immigrants has hit rock-bottom, and the rich are more "valuable" than ever before.</p><p>
&nbsp; 

<p>Il faut cultiver notre jardin.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by GreenMom</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/hill-heap2/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:54:45 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/hill-heap2/3</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Hey John former Marine</strong></p><p>I'm not saying you're wrong about what the Administration thinks, and god knows these economic analyses are a good bit fun with numbers....</p><p>
...but the economists at EPA doing the analyses use Census figures and national average earnings estimates -- they're not calling out specific groups of people or devaluing anyone. &nbsp;</p><p>
For better or for worse, you can't get a regulation through the political system without a monetary estimate attached to it, and the EPA economists -- who are career people, not politicos - do the best they can. &nbsp;Under (god willing) President Obama, you'll still see dollar values attached to regulations, and they won't look all that different.</p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Hey John former Marine</strong></p><p>I'm not saying you're wrong about what the Administration thinks, and god knows these economic analyses are a good bit fun with numbers....</p><p>
...but the economists at EPA doing the analyses use Census figures and national average earnings estimates -- they're not calling out specific groups of people or devaluing anyone. &nbsp;</p><p>
For better or for worse, you can't get a regulation through the political system without a monetary estimate attached to it, and the EPA economists -- who are career people, not politicos - do the best they can. &nbsp;Under (god willing) President Obama, you'll still see dollar values attached to regulations, and they won't look all that different.</p>
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