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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for What we lose if Bloomberg&#8217;s plan goes down]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by lorna salzman</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 03:21:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>No pain, no gain on congestion pricing</strong></p><p>I was appalled at the "good man " who didnt want to pay more for his garage. If you can afford to garage a car in Manhattan, you can damn well afford to pay the tax. We are cutting to the chase on energy and global warming, which is to say that even good citizens will put their personal convenience ahead of their community and the global environment. This means that some groups and leaders will remain convinced that we can't give any more bad news about global warming and that we can't ask for any sacrifices, no matter how trivial. In turn these groups will soft-pedal their demands for the really tough measures needed to mitigate climate change. And in turn this will mean going along with politicians and policies that are little better than Business as Usual. And this in turn will mean that we will act only when the s--t hits the proverbial plan and we are forced into defensive and protective measures rather than those that could minimize the eventual impact. I find all this very discouraging and depressing. We need to look hard for leaders who will lay the truth out for all to see, and hope that enough people will finally understand what the stakes are. But I dont see these leaders yet. </p>
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				<p><strong>No pain, no gain on congestion pricing</strong></p><p>I was appalled at the "good man " who didnt want to pay more for his garage. If you can afford to garage a car in Manhattan, you can damn well afford to pay the tax. We are cutting to the chase on energy and global warming, which is to say that even good citizens will put their personal convenience ahead of their community and the global environment. This means that some groups and leaders will remain convinced that we can't give any more bad news about global warming and that we can't ask for any sacrifices, no matter how trivial. In turn these groups will soft-pedal their demands for the really tough measures needed to mitigate climate change. And in turn this will mean going along with politicians and policies that are little better than Business as Usual. And this in turn will mean that we will act only when the s--t hits the proverbial plan and we are forced into defensive and protective measures rather than those that could minimize the eventual impact. I find all this very discouraging and depressing. We need to look hard for leaders who will lay the truth out for all to see, and hope that enough people will finally understand what the stakes are. But I dont see these leaders yet. </p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by ed abbey</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:27:16 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Anyone sick of Komanoff pimping for Cape Wind yet?</strong></p><p>There he goes again! Cape Wind surely won't "directly reduce the burning of fossil fuel"; if the ill-advised industrial wind plant IS ever built its power will simply be added to the grid. There's no real guarantee that any coal stations will be magically shutdown if CW goes on line.</p><p>
Also, once again, Komanoff plays the "Nantucket Sound "viewshed" enjoyed by wealthy Cape Cod landowners" card. Ha! There are countless working-class opponents of Cape Wind, people whose livelihoods will be destroyed or endangered by the project: navigators, fishing families, fliers; as well as middle and low-income folks who value Nantucket Sounds beauty as it is. </p><p>
As for "appropriated ownership", THAT is exactly what Cape Wind is trying todo with the public space that is Horseshoe Shoals. Cape Wind is all about privatization of the Commons. They profit, we get stuck with the liabilities. </p><p>
Cape Wind: the right project in the WRONG place!<br>
&nbsp;</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Anyone sick of Komanoff pimping for Cape Wind yet?</strong></p><p>There he goes again! Cape Wind surely won't "directly reduce the burning of fossil fuel"; if the ill-advised industrial wind plant IS ever built its power will simply be added to the grid. There's no real guarantee that any coal stations will be magically shutdown if CW goes on line.</p><p>
Also, once again, Komanoff plays the "Nantucket Sound "viewshed" enjoyed by wealthy Cape Cod landowners" card. Ha! There are countless working-class opponents of Cape Wind, people whose livelihoods will be destroyed or endangered by the project: navigators, fishing families, fliers; as well as middle and low-income folks who value Nantucket Sounds beauty as it is. </p><p>
As for "appropriated ownership", THAT is exactly what Cape Wind is trying todo with the public space that is Horseshoe Shoals. Cape Wind is all about privatization of the Commons. They profit, we get stuck with the liabilities. </p><p>
Cape Wind: the right project in the WRONG place!<br>
&nbsp;</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Charles Komanoff</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 07:21:51 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>&quot;Pimp&quot; We Must<p>"Ed" --<p>
Which four-letter word do you mis-understand more? I'd say it's a toss-up between pimp and grid.<p>
Cape Wind electricity added to the grid will cause a 1-for-1 reduction in the use of fossil-fuel generators elsewhere on the grid. It's basic physics. Conservation of electrons. Ask any electrical engineer. Ask the ISO's that run the grids. Adding wind power has the same effect as turning off lights. (Or do you believe the grid likewise doesn't reduce fossil-fuel burning in response to drops in demand?)<p>
Re your other four-letter word: I've not received (nor asked for) a penny for the articles and briefs I've written for Cape Wind over the years.<p>
Livelihoods destroyed by the windmills? Whose, exactly, except for jobs digging up and cleaning up (barely) from fossil fuels? As for valuing the beauty of Nantucket Sound, I value it no less than you do. I cast my lot with Thoreau: "What is the use of a house if you haven't got a tolerable planet to put it on?"<p>
You sign as "Ed Abbey." Don't make me laugh.

<p>Charles
<a href="http://www.komanoff.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.komanoff.net
</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;Pimp&quot; We Must<p>"Ed" --<p>
Which four-letter word do you mis-understand more? I'd say it's a toss-up between pimp and grid.<p>
Cape Wind electricity added to the grid will cause a 1-for-1 reduction in the use of fossil-fuel generators elsewhere on the grid. It's basic physics. Conservation of electrons. Ask any electrical engineer. Ask the ISO's that run the grids. Adding wind power has the same effect as turning off lights. (Or do you believe the grid likewise doesn't reduce fossil-fuel burning in response to drops in demand?)<p>
Re your other four-letter word: I've not received (nor asked for) a penny for the articles and briefs I've written for Cape Wind over the years.<p>
Livelihoods destroyed by the windmills? Whose, exactly, except for jobs digging up and cleaning up (barely) from fossil fuels? As for valuing the beauty of Nantucket Sound, I value it no less than you do. I cast my lot with Thoreau: "What is the use of a house if you haven't got a tolerable planet to put it on?"<p>
You sign as "Ed Abbey." Don't make me laugh.

<p>Charles
<a href="http://www.komanoff.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.komanoff.net
</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by spaceshaper</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:50:31 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ed -</strong></p><p>Do tell us more about the "working class ... fliers" whose "livelihoods will be destroyed or endangered by the project". 

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Ed -</strong></p><p>Do tell us more about the "working class ... fliers" whose "livelihoods will be destroyed or endangered by the project". 

<p>The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Lois Recycle</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:41:08 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/high-noon-for-congestion-pricing/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Appropriated ownership</strong></p><p>Ed Abbey said:</p><p>
As for "appropriated ownership", THAT is exactly what Cape Wind is trying todo with the public space that is Horseshoe Shoals. Cape Wind is all about privatization of the Commons. They profit, we get stuck with the liabilities. </p><p>
* * * * * * *</p><p>
I say that if you want to talk about appropriated ownership, let's talk about how cars have appropriated ownership of the public commons, how public streets that used to be used for walkers and bicyclists and horse-drawn vehicles and cars are now used almost exclusively by cars, that in this country alone kill tens of thousands and injure a million more EVERY YEAR. &nbsp;Let's talk about how coal burning has appropriated the use of my lungs for its pollution. &nbsp;Let's talk about how nuclear power has appropriated my genes and the genes of future generations for its damage, and how it has appropriated the air and water of the whole world for its routine radioactive releases. &nbsp;Let's talk about how carbon emissions have appropriated the future of thousands of species, and possibly those of humans, too. &nbsp;Let's talk about the fact that all freshwater fish in the northeast contains mercury, a result of burning coal for power, and the fact that I did not choose to have mercury as an ingredient in all the fish I eat. &nbsp;Let's talk about all the autistic children being born, and the fact that autistism has been linked to exposure to heavy metals, such as mercury in the fish you eat, the mercury that gets spread around when the coal that contains it is burned.</p><p>
At a time when the cancer rate in this country is approaching 40%, when the rate of children born with neurological problems is increasing, when the earth has a fever, when most people drink water laced with pharmaceuticals and toxins, when we are drowning in our poisons, I cannot understand resistance to those choices which can lead to a better future.</p>
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				<p><strong>Appropriated ownership</strong></p><p>Ed Abbey said:</p><p>
As for "appropriated ownership", THAT is exactly what Cape Wind is trying todo with the public space that is Horseshoe Shoals. Cape Wind is all about privatization of the Commons. They profit, we get stuck with the liabilities. </p><p>
* * * * * * *</p><p>
I say that if you want to talk about appropriated ownership, let's talk about how cars have appropriated ownership of the public commons, how public streets that used to be used for walkers and bicyclists and horse-drawn vehicles and cars are now used almost exclusively by cars, that in this country alone kill tens of thousands and injure a million more EVERY YEAR. &nbsp;Let's talk about how coal burning has appropriated the use of my lungs for its pollution. &nbsp;Let's talk about how nuclear power has appropriated my genes and the genes of future generations for its damage, and how it has appropriated the air and water of the whole world for its routine radioactive releases. &nbsp;Let's talk about how carbon emissions have appropriated the future of thousands of species, and possibly those of humans, too. &nbsp;Let's talk about the fact that all freshwater fish in the northeast contains mercury, a result of burning coal for power, and the fact that I did not choose to have mercury as an ingredient in all the fish I eat. &nbsp;Let's talk about all the autistic children being born, and the fact that autistism has been linked to exposure to heavy metals, such as mercury in the fish you eat, the mercury that gets spread around when the coal that contains it is burned.</p><p>
At a time when the cancer rate in this country is approaching 40%, when the rate of children born with neurological problems is increasing, when the earth has a fever, when most people drink water laced with pharmaceuticals and toxins, when we are drowning in our poisons, I cannot understand resistance to those choices which can lead to a better future.</p>
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