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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Two actions and two &#8216;tweaks&#8217;]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by noolympics</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/hansens-two-plus-two-solution-to-global-warming/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:09:25 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Per polluter or per capita CO2 emission</strong></p><p>Perhaps it is true that the U.S. is creating CO2 pollution more than 3 times that of China on the so-called "per capita" basis.</p><p>
But how about per "polluter" basis? Less than 5% of the Mainland Chinese population is creating a significant amount of CO2 that is comparable to that of an average Americans. </p><p>
To be conservative, suppose 50 million Chinese are producing the world #1 amount of CO2. Compared to the 250 million Americans who are producing significant amount of CO2, on average, an average Chinese polluter is producing more than 5 times more CO2 than an average American polluter. </p><p>
What is the solution to this horrible situation?</p><p>


Stop globalization. Globalization means production is not only shifted from energy efficient countries to energy inefficient countries, but also from more ethical and regulated developed countries to more corrupt and unregulated countries. </p><p>
Impose CO2 taxes (tariffs) on products imported from highly energy inefficient and unethical countries.</p><p>
Impose quotas on dirty imports unless the product of origin can show proofs of CO2 reduction and guaranteed energy efficiency. This allows "ethical" developing countries to produce and restrict the pollution created by "unethical" developing countries. </p><p>
Establish (CO2/exports) ratio figures for each exporting country. Sanction those countries that produce an excessive amount of CO2/export. This makes sure ethical developing countries will continue to grow whereas unethical developing countries will not be able harm our world any more.



<p>freehk.org | chinasick.blogspot.com | noolympics.blogspot.com</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Per polluter or per capita CO2 emission</strong></p><p>Perhaps it is true that the U.S. is creating CO2 pollution more than 3 times that of China on the so-called "per capita" basis.</p><p>
But how about per "polluter" basis? Less than 5% of the Mainland Chinese population is creating a significant amount of CO2 that is comparable to that of an average Americans. </p><p>
To be conservative, suppose 50 million Chinese are producing the world #1 amount of CO2. Compared to the 250 million Americans who are producing significant amount of CO2, on average, an average Chinese polluter is producing more than 5 times more CO2 than an average American polluter. </p><p>
What is the solution to this horrible situation?</p><p>


Stop globalization. Globalization means production is not only shifted from energy efficient countries to energy inefficient countries, but also from more ethical and regulated developed countries to more corrupt and unregulated countries. </p><p>
Impose CO2 taxes (tariffs) on products imported from highly energy inefficient and unethical countries.</p><p>
Impose quotas on dirty imports unless the product of origin can show proofs of CO2 reduction and guaranteed energy efficiency. This allows "ethical" developing countries to produce and restrict the pollution created by "unethical" developing countries. </p><p>
Establish (CO2/exports) ratio figures for each exporting country. Sanction those countries that produce an excessive amount of CO2/export. This makes sure ethical developing countries will continue to grow whereas unethical developing countries will not be able harm our world any more.



<p>freehk.org | chinasick.blogspot.com | noolympics.blogspot.com</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/hansens-two-plus-two-solution-to-global-warming/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:40:11 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>The US is still number 1!</strong></p><p>Noolympics, it seems like you are trying to deflect from Hansen's point that the chief responsibility for GW lies with the US. You don't address his point that we must get our own house in order first. And that the developing world will follow for reasons of self-interest.</p><p>
When Hansen writes the US is responsible for more than 3 times as much climate change as China, I think he talking about the cumulative effect of US emmissions, not the per capita emmissions. In fact, he says "On a per capita basis, U.S. responsibility exceeds that of China by an order of magnitude." Not the 3 times you suggest above. In the paper, Hansen says "The United States will continue to be primarily responsible for climate change for decades to come.</p><p>
Also your "per-polluter" argument is misguided because the Chinese manufacture a large fraction of goods for the American market. Thus our leaders have found a way to outsource not just American jobs, but to outsource the carbon emmissions from the manufacturing sector in the process. (And no doubt they will continue to outsource manufacturing to avoid cap and trade costs.) In this respect, you are right to consider tariffs on Chinese products (made from "coal" energy). But let's not forget that our main task is to change US policy, and not to scapegoat the Chinese.</p><p>
Argue with Hansen if you like. But don't try to change the subject without first countering his arguments.</p>
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				<p><strong>The US is still number 1!</strong></p><p>Noolympics, it seems like you are trying to deflect from Hansen's point that the chief responsibility for GW lies with the US. You don't address his point that we must get our own house in order first. And that the developing world will follow for reasons of self-interest.</p><p>
When Hansen writes the US is responsible for more than 3 times as much climate change as China, I think he talking about the cumulative effect of US emmissions, not the per capita emmissions. In fact, he says "On a per capita basis, U.S. responsibility exceeds that of China by an order of magnitude." Not the 3 times you suggest above. In the paper, Hansen says "The United States will continue to be primarily responsible for climate change for decades to come.</p><p>
Also your "per-polluter" argument is misguided because the Chinese manufacture a large fraction of goods for the American market. Thus our leaders have found a way to outsource not just American jobs, but to outsource the carbon emmissions from the manufacturing sector in the process. (And no doubt they will continue to outsource manufacturing to avoid cap and trade costs.) In this respect, you are right to consider tariffs on Chinese products (made from "coal" energy). But let's not forget that our main task is to change US policy, and not to scapegoat the Chinese.</p><p>
Argue with Hansen if you like. But don't try to change the subject without first countering his arguments.</p>
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