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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Ultracapacitor company claims it will revolutionize electric cars]]></title>
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	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
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            <title>Comment #1 by sunflower</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 00:57:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Spin over substance</strong></p><p>I've been watching nanoparticles ultra-capacitors. &nbsp;Generically, the concept has potential. &nbsp;The Achilles heel is mechanical failure of the dielectric. &nbsp;One small short and the device fails permanently. &nbsp;</p><p>
I have also been watching Greentech. &nbsp;Many, if not most, of the technologies have been spun to the moon. &nbsp;Investors beware.</p>
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				<p><strong>Spin over substance</strong></p><p>I've been watching nanoparticles ultra-capacitors. &nbsp;Generically, the concept has potential. &nbsp;The Achilles heel is mechanical failure of the dielectric. &nbsp;One small short and the device fails permanently. &nbsp;</p><p>
I have also been watching Greentech. &nbsp;Many, if not most, of the technologies have been spun to the moon. &nbsp;Investors beware.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by theBike45</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 01:16:08 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>News not anything new</strong></p><p>&nbsp;I'm amazed at how the recent spate of articles about EESTor (this being one of them, although it is entirely derivative and adds zippo to the state of our knowledge) acts as though this company suddenly appeared from the bowels of an alien spacecraft. &nbsp;They've been around for 11 years, with at least some participants migrating from auto industry veteran supplier TRW up north. The biggest hurdle they face in terms of credibility has been the fact that their claims so completely exceed the current state of capacitor capabilities. They also claim benign failure characteristics never before seen with capacitors. The article also neglect to mention problems other than energy capacity : capacitors have a high leakage rate that makes their use <br>
problematic for applications such as autos. Also not mentioned are their &nbsp;undesirable failure characteristics.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;EESTor is THE big unknown when it comes to handicapping future electrical storage &nbsp;technology. Let's all pray they succeed. They have claimed commercial production within 10 months and will deliver a test battery pack to ZENN before then. The article claims before year's end, but that is no longer valid - it should occur, obviously, before production begins, most likely early next year. ZENN stock has been volatile, and mostly volatile upwards the past several weeks since new talk of EESTor has emerged. ZENN has made no mention of a bona fide, highway capable electric car, probably because they can't build one - all their current products are low speed, neighborhood death traps that don't meet any Federal safety standards. <br>
</br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>News not anything new</strong></p><p>&nbsp;I'm amazed at how the recent spate of articles about EESTor (this being one of them, although it is entirely derivative and adds zippo to the state of our knowledge) acts as though this company suddenly appeared from the bowels of an alien spacecraft. &nbsp;They've been around for 11 years, with at least some participants migrating from auto industry veteran supplier TRW up north. The biggest hurdle they face in terms of credibility has been the fact that their claims so completely exceed the current state of capacitor capabilities. They also claim benign failure characteristics never before seen with capacitors. The article also neglect to mention problems other than energy capacity : capacitors have a high leakage rate that makes their use <br>
problematic for applications such as autos. Also not mentioned are their &nbsp;undesirable failure characteristics.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;EESTor is THE big unknown when it comes to handicapping future electrical storage &nbsp;technology. Let's all pray they succeed. They have claimed commercial production within 10 months and will deliver a test battery pack to ZENN before then. The article claims before year's end, but that is no longer valid - it should occur, obviously, before production begins, most likely early next year. ZENN stock has been volatile, and mostly volatile upwards the past several weeks since new talk of EESTor has emerged. ZENN has made no mention of a bona fide, highway capable electric car, probably because they can't build one - all their current products are low speed, neighborhood death traps that don't meet any Federal safety standards. <br>
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            <title>Comment #3 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 01:43:42 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Well &quot;maybe&quot;<p>Well a big maybe with UltraCapacitors.<br>
Meantime lets stick with Lithium Polymer Batteries.<p>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/phoenix" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/phoenix</a></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Well &quot;maybe&quot;<p>Well a big maybe with UltraCapacitors.<br>
Meantime lets stick with Lithium Polymer Batteries.<p>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/phoenix" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/phoenix</a></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Gar Lipow</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 02:33:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>UltraCapacitors</strong></p><p>UltraCapacitors are not as fantastic (in the sense of difficult to believe) as they sound. &nbsp;A lot of people are working on them, and I don't think there is any doubt that if we retain a technical civilization for long enough, we will have them some day. On the other hand I am very skeptical that EESTOR will be the ones to deliver them. First of all they have already missed a deadline. They originally claimed they would have them by August. Yes they have serious money behind them; but the serious money is super-high risk capital - people who make money by losing their investments 8 of 10 times, and make up for it by getting twenty-fold returns the other two. </p><p>
EESTOR has kept the details of their tech confidential so far. They filed a patent that really does not disclose how their system works: you could not build an EESTOR from that patent. </p><p>
My guess: they made some sort of genuine breakthrough in the field, but were overenthusiastic in thinking that their breakthrough was so key, that clearing the remaining obstacles would be routine. Their sincerity, enthusiasm and real technical achievement convinced both themselves and investors; but the breakthrough turned out not to be enough to get them to a commercial product, or (unless there is news I have not heard) even to a working prototype. So it does not come across as a scam, because it was not intended as a scam; it was the overoptimism inventors and entrepreneurs are often guilty of. </p><p>
I hope I'm wrong and in turns out to be real. But I doubted it a year ago, and doubt it even more now.</p>
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				<p><strong>UltraCapacitors</strong></p><p>UltraCapacitors are not as fantastic (in the sense of difficult to believe) as they sound. &nbsp;A lot of people are working on them, and I don't think there is any doubt that if we retain a technical civilization for long enough, we will have them some day. On the other hand I am very skeptical that EESTOR will be the ones to deliver them. First of all they have already missed a deadline. They originally claimed they would have them by August. Yes they have serious money behind them; but the serious money is super-high risk capital - people who make money by losing their investments 8 of 10 times, and make up for it by getting twenty-fold returns the other two. </p><p>
EESTOR has kept the details of their tech confidential so far. They filed a patent that really does not disclose how their system works: you could not build an EESTOR from that patent. </p><p>
My guess: they made some sort of genuine breakthrough in the field, but were overenthusiastic in thinking that their breakthrough was so key, that clearing the remaining obstacles would be routine. Their sincerity, enthusiasm and real technical achievement convinced both themselves and investors; but the breakthrough turned out not to be enough to get them to a commercial product, or (unless there is news I have not heard) even to a working prototype. So it does not come across as a scam, because it was not intended as a scam; it was the overoptimism inventors and entrepreneurs are often guilty of. </p><p>
I hope I'm wrong and in turns out to be real. But I doubted it a year ago, and doubt it even more now.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:53:03 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/5</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Batteries are still stupid<p><br>
Batteries or capacitors that weigh even that much are still a bad idea. &nbsp; You're committed to carrying around weight regardless of how much energy is stored. &nbsp; A full "tank" weighs as much as an empty one.<p>
Compare that even to gasoline, whose weight is proportional to the stored energy. &nbsp; The other thing is that batteries and "ultracapacitors" still have to regulate voltage as they drop in energy. &nbsp; With fuels such as hydrogen or gasoline, the last drop has the same energy content as the first drop...no need to regulate.<p>
A hydrogen tank or gasoline tank can be a fraction of the total weight of the fuel -- batteries and ultra-capacitors are not only still heavy, but they cost the fuel of having to truck them around -- thereby being inherently inefficient.

<p>John Bailo<br>
<a href="http://sutext.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">Sutext:</a></br></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Batteries are still stupid<p><br>
Batteries or capacitors that weigh even that much are still a bad idea. &nbsp; You're committed to carrying around weight regardless of how much energy is stored. &nbsp; A full "tank" weighs as much as an empty one.<p>
Compare that even to gasoline, whose weight is proportional to the stored energy. &nbsp; The other thing is that batteries and "ultracapacitors" still have to regulate voltage as they drop in energy. &nbsp; With fuels such as hydrogen or gasoline, the last drop has the same energy content as the first drop...no need to regulate.<p>
A hydrogen tank or gasoline tank can be a fraction of the total weight of the fuel -- batteries and ultra-capacitors are not only still heavy, but they cost the fuel of having to truck them around -- thereby being inherently inefficient.

<p>John Bailo<br>
<a href="http://sutext.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">Sutext:</a></br></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by drivin98</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 18:38:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/6</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>future tech<p><a href="http://www.physorg.com/news106245164.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.physorg.com/news106245164.html<br>
This is a technology that may well revolutionize energy storage. Maybe before EEStor.</br></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>future tech<p><a href="http://www.physorg.com/news106245164.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.physorg.com/news106245164.html<br>
This is a technology that may well revolutionize energy storage. Maybe before EEStor.</br></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by ClimateCriminal</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 21:10:38 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/7</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Alternatives to Fossil-Fuels Are Essential<p>Apart from the ExxonMobil and the rest of the dyed-in-the-wool fossil-fuel disinformation industry, people are beginning to realise [albeit rather belatedly], that our addiction to oil, coal &amp; gas will have to end sooner rather than later. <p>
Yes, it seems likely we will have to go cold-turkey which is going to be difficult, but the alternative is the possible runaway greenhouse climate, which is likely to be even worse, perhaps even terminal. BTW, it's happened before, so it seems quite possible that potentially disastrous warming could happened again, it's the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, 55 MYA. The PETM visited its very own MASS EXTINCTION upon earth. <p>
There are increasing indications that the climate can change abruptly, once threshold conditions have been reached, the problem is, only nature knows where these thresholds are. For references see bottom of post.<p>
The profligate wasting of energy will have to cease, and powered transport will have to be lighter, smarter and most probably electrically powered.<p>
Perhaps super-capacitors have a part to play, let's hope the technological hurdles are cracked quickly to start the process of letting-go of oil!<br>
-------------------------<br>
Quote from abstract<br>
..,We suggest that the evidence indicates that long-term climate change occurs in sudden jumps rather than incremental changes, which does not bode well for the future.<br>
Endquote<br>
2001. Maslin, M., D. Seidov and J. Lowe, Synthesis of the nature and causes of rapid climate transitions during the Quaternary<br>
<a href="http://www.essc.psu.edu/~dseidov/pdf_copies/maslin_seidov_levi_agu_book_2001.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.essc.psu.edu/~dseidov/pdf_copies/maslin_seidov ...<p>
Quote from abstract<br>
Large, abrupt, and widespread climate changes with &nbsp;major impacts have occurred repeatedly in the past, when the Earth system was forced across thresholds. Although abrupt climate changes can occur for many reasons, it is conceivable that human forcing of climate change is increasing the probability of large, abrupt events. Were such an event to recur, the economic and ecological impacts could be large and potentially serious. Unpredictability exhibited near climate thresholds in simple models shows that some uncertainty will always be associated with projections. In light of these uncertainties, policy-makers should consider expanding research into abrupt climate change, improving monitoring systems, and taking actions designed to enhance the adaptability and resilience of ecosystems and economies.<br>
Endquote<br>
Abrupt Climate Change<br>
R. B. Alley, J. Marotzke, W. D. Nordhaus, J. T. Overpeck, D. M. Peteet, R. A. Pielke Jr., R. T. Pierrehumbert, P. B. Rhines, T. F. Stocker,L. D. Talley, J. M. Wallace<br>
<a href="http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2003/2003_Alley_etal.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2003/2003_Alley_etal.pdf

<p>Science trumps everything - religion, politics!</p></a></br></br></br></br></br></p></a></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Alternatives to Fossil-Fuels Are Essential<p>Apart from the ExxonMobil and the rest of the dyed-in-the-wool fossil-fuel disinformation industry, people are beginning to realise [albeit rather belatedly], that our addiction to oil, coal &amp; gas will have to end sooner rather than later. <p>
Yes, it seems likely we will have to go cold-turkey which is going to be difficult, but the alternative is the possible runaway greenhouse climate, which is likely to be even worse, perhaps even terminal. BTW, it's happened before, so it seems quite possible that potentially disastrous warming could happened again, it's the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, 55 MYA. The PETM visited its very own MASS EXTINCTION upon earth. <p>
There are increasing indications that the climate can change abruptly, once threshold conditions have been reached, the problem is, only nature knows where these thresholds are. For references see bottom of post.<p>
The profligate wasting of energy will have to cease, and powered transport will have to be lighter, smarter and most probably electrically powered.<p>
Perhaps super-capacitors have a part to play, let's hope the technological hurdles are cracked quickly to start the process of letting-go of oil!<br>
-------------------------<br>
Quote from abstract<br>
..,We suggest that the evidence indicates that long-term climate change occurs in sudden jumps rather than incremental changes, which does not bode well for the future.<br>
Endquote<br>
2001. Maslin, M., D. Seidov and J. Lowe, Synthesis of the nature and causes of rapid climate transitions during the Quaternary<br>
<a href="http://www.essc.psu.edu/~dseidov/pdf_copies/maslin_seidov_levi_agu_book_2001.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.essc.psu.edu/~dseidov/pdf_copies/maslin_seidov ...<p>
Quote from abstract<br>
Large, abrupt, and widespread climate changes with &nbsp;major impacts have occurred repeatedly in the past, when the Earth system was forced across thresholds. Although abrupt climate changes can occur for many reasons, it is conceivable that human forcing of climate change is increasing the probability of large, abrupt events. Were such an event to recur, the economic and ecological impacts could be large and potentially serious. Unpredictability exhibited near climate thresholds in simple models shows that some uncertainty will always be associated with projections. In light of these uncertainties, policy-makers should consider expanding research into abrupt climate change, improving monitoring systems, and taking actions designed to enhance the adaptability and resilience of ecosystems and economies.<br>
Endquote<br>
Abrupt Climate Change<br>
R. B. Alley, J. Marotzke, W. D. Nordhaus, J. T. Overpeck, D. M. Peteet, R. A. Pielke Jr., R. T. Pierrehumbert, P. B. Rhines, T. F. Stocker,L. D. Talley, J. M. Wallace<br>
<a href="http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2003/2003_Alley_etal.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2003/2003_Alley_etal.pdf

<p>Science trumps everything - religion, politics!</p></a></br></br></br></br></br></p></a></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by scatter</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:24:13 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Inefficient?</strong></p><p>"...thereby being inherently inefficient"</p><p>
So you're lugging a bit of extra weight around. But the efficiency of EVs completely outstrips fossil fuel and will be superior to hydrogen vehicles. To call them inefficient on the basis that their weight doesn't change is completely wrong.</p>
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				<p><strong>Inefficient?</strong></p><p>"...thereby being inherently inefficient"</p><p>
So you're lugging a bit of extra weight around. But the efficiency of EVs completely outstrips fossil fuel and will be superior to hydrogen vehicles. To call them inefficient on the basis that their weight doesn't change is completely wrong.</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by mihan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 23:24:51 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/greentech-and-eestor/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>&quot;moving parts&quot;?</strong></p><p>Unless batteries in electric cars are very different from any other kind of battery, they share with capacitors the "added bonus" of having no moving parts.</p><p>
Unless you were comparing them to the internal combustion engine, in which case that is definitely not made clear in the sentence.</p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;moving parts&quot;?</strong></p><p>Unless batteries in electric cars are very different from any other kind of battery, they share with capacitors the "added bonus" of having no moving parts.</p><p>
Unless you were comparing them to the internal combustion engine, in which case that is definitely not made clear in the sentence.</p>
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