<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Grain ethanol: wack]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Fri, 19 May 2006 14:05:29 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/1 Wack indeed

That wasn't a debate. That was a schooling (although, a polite one).

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Wack indeed

That wasn't a debate. That was a schooling (although, a polite one).

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Comment #2 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Fri, 19 May 2006 23:21:23 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/2 E15

I asked a few days ago why we had this E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline), when there wasn't that much ethanol.  From Robert's article:

"If we turned 100% of the corn crop into ethanol, we would produce the equivalent of less than 15% of our annual gasoline consumption."

Based on this we only have enough ethanol to make E15 everywhere (or E85 at 15% of our stations and in 15% of our cars, nationwide).

Where is this crazy, impossible, push for "E85 everywhere" coming from?

]]> E15

I asked a few days ago why we had this E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline), when there wasn't that much ethanol.  From Robert's article:

"If we turned 100% of the corn crop into ethanol, we would produce the equivalent of less than 15% of our annual gasoline consumption."

Based on this we only have enough ethanol to make E15 everywhere (or E85 at 15% of our stations and in 15% of our cars, nationwide).

Where is this crazy, impossible, push for "E85 everywhere" coming from?

]]> Comment #3 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Fri, 19 May 2006 23:22:33 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/3 corn chips

and or course, the 15% is itself an impossible upper limit, with no more corn foodstuffs for us.

]]> corn chips

and or course, the 15% is itself an impossible upper limit, with no more corn foodstuffs for us.

]]> Comment #4 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Sat, 20 May 2006 00:01:52 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/4 Why?

"Why, oh why do we continue down this insane path?"

Because it keeps the real alternative, plugin cars (plugin hybrids and pure electric), from gaining traction.  The same fellers who sit in the boardrooms and fly on the corporate jets of exxon, do the same with Ford and GM, and the big banks that monopolize the flow of capital to new technology.  

Infernal combustion vehicles burn liquid fuel.  That will remain 90% oil even with ethanol or biodiesel.  So the price of liquid fuel will still be controlled by the same old monopoly games and oil wars.

Powering ones own electric vehicle from a home based solar/wind system or a community power cooperative is a direct threat to this most powerful of all corporate monopolies.

That is why taxpayer draining schemes like the hydrogen economy, fuel farming, "new, cleaner, safer" coal and nukes, and the rest of the corporatista propaganda shilling for government subsidies goes on.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog


]]> Why?

"Why, oh why do we continue down this insane path?"

Because it keeps the real alternative, plugin cars (plugin hybrids and pure electric), from gaining traction.  The same fellers who sit in the boardrooms and fly on the corporate jets of exxon, do the same with Ford and GM, and the big banks that monopolize the flow of capital to new technology.  

Infernal combustion vehicles burn liquid fuel.  That will remain 90% oil even with ethanol or biodiesel.  So the price of liquid fuel will still be controlled by the same old monopoly games and oil wars.

Powering ones own electric vehicle from a home based solar/wind system or a community power cooperative is a direct threat to this most powerful of all corporate monopolies.

That is why taxpayer draining schemes like the hydrogen economy, fuel farming, "new, cleaner, safer" coal and nukes, and the rest of the corporatista propaganda shilling for government subsidies goes on.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog


]]> Comment #5 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Sat, 20 May 2006 00:10:56 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/5 Make that 5%

He noted that if you accounted for the oil used to make it, that 15% drops to 5%. None of the experts seem to disagree with these kinds of numbers. That is why biofuel in the future is expected to be cellusosic, and why even then, it is expected to be a small part of the future energy pie, although even a small percentage is a huge amount and still poses a risk to biodiversity.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Make that 5%

He noted that if you accounted for the oil used to make it, that 15% drops to 5%. None of the experts seem to disagree with these kinds of numbers. That is why biofuel in the future is expected to be cellusosic, and why even then, it is expected to be a small part of the future energy pie, although even a small percentage is a huge amount and still poses a risk to biodiversity.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Comment #6 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Sat, 20 May 2006 00:42:16 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/6 'expected'

Well, I'm sure you are aware that 'cellusosic' is more a proposed technology than a proven one.  There are limited plants, still working on getting their costs down to something reasonable.

5%, 15%, whatever ... none of these things bring us up to the "E85 everywhere" that is rapidly becoming the slogan of the ethanol lobby.

We should face that, and remind them, that they can't do "E85 everywhere."  It is a misdirection.

]]> 'expected'

Well, I'm sure you are aware that 'cellusosic' is more a proposed technology than a proven one.  There are limited plants, still working on getting their costs down to something reasonable.

5%, 15%, whatever ... none of these things bring us up to the "E85 everywhere" that is rapidly becoming the slogan of the ethanol lobby.

We should face that, and remind them, that they can't do "E85 everywhere."  It is a misdirection.

]]> Comment #7 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Sat, 20 May 2006 01:11:58 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/7 GM

"GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz made similar comments in an interview in March. Speaking with CNN reporter Frank Sesno, Lutz said, 'We think running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the world.'"

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage5201.html

]]> GM

"GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz made similar comments in an interview in March. Speaking with CNN reporter Frank Sesno, Lutz said, 'We think running the nation on E85 makes more sense than all the hybrids in the world.'"

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage5201.html

]]> Comment #8 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Sat, 20 May 2006 01:18:37 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/8 Preaching to the choir

Most Americans seem to go with the "there is safety in numbers" concept when it comes to deciding who is right on a given issue rather than give it any serious thought.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Preaching to the choir

Most Americans seem to go with the "there is safety in numbers" concept when it comes to deciding who is right on a given issue rather than give it any serious thought.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Comment #9 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Sat, 20 May 2006 02:59:24 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/9 hydrogen

On the "technology acceptance" front, every idea is tested with a claim that "it's all hype."  Some technologies survive that test better than others.  I'd say hydrogen has suffered as hard realities became more widely known.  On the other hand, with the current Prius shortage (and premium prices on used cars), I'd say the hybrid has come out of it pretty well.

Ethanol, just because it doesn't have the fundimental technological/economic strength, will most likely(*) end up losing.

And we'll be better off if it loses quickly.

* - there is always the chance of a worldchanging technological breakthrough, but as hydrogen shows, sometimes we can hope for those for decades.

]]> hydrogen

On the "technology acceptance" front, every idea is tested with a claim that "it's all hype."  Some technologies survive that test better than others.  I'd say hydrogen has suffered as hard realities became more widely known.  On the other hand, with the current Prius shortage (and premium prices on used cars), I'd say the hybrid has come out of it pretty well.

Ethanol, just because it doesn't have the fundimental technological/economic strength, will most likely(*) end up losing.

And we'll be better off if it loses quickly.

* - there is always the chance of a worldchanging technological breakthrough, but as hydrogen shows, sometimes we can hope for those for decades.

]]> Comment #10 by Rob http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/ Thu, 25 May 2006 17:57:58 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/grain-ethanol-wack/10 biodiversivist , clowning

"most" "us" "them"
and still no real world solutions.
Killing species one at a time via appathy: biodiversivist

Yeah for Grist comments!

]]> biodiversivist , clowning

"most" "us" "them"
and still no real world solutions.
Killing species one at a time via appathy: biodiversivist

Yeah for Grist comments!

]]>