<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Google.org funds V2G demonstration projects]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by theBike45 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:05:41 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/1 Gee, can they spare that?

Th idea that spending $10millon will be able to "jump start" anything is totally absurd.
And a vehicle to grid technology is both unneeded and silly. Non-dispatchable power sources like wind can be made controllable via General Compression, Inc., if one is stupid enough to
want to build wind turbines and desecrate the environment for the sake of insignificant amounts of power.

]]> Gee, can they spare that?

Th idea that spending $10millon will be able to "jump start" anything is totally absurd.
And a vehicle to grid technology is both unneeded and silly. Non-dispatchable power sources like wind can be made controllable via General Compression, Inc., if one is stupid enough to
want to build wind turbines and desecrate the environment for the sake of insignificant amounts of power.

]]> Comment #2 by crotchety http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 01:19:49 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/2 Plug-in Hybrids with Vehicle-to-Grid

As a devotee of conservation and tech solutions thereto it pains me to throw cold water on ideas like this one. But...
Grid-to-battery-to-grid energy conversion is not 100% efficient.
viz:
Charger/inverter efficiency AC-DC <100%  (it gets warm)
Battery charge efficiency <100% (it gets warm)
Battery discharge efficiency <100% (it gets warm)
Charger/inverter efficiency DC-AC <100% (it gets warm)

In my just-invented new age math: 4 x <100% = <<100%

And don't get me started on battery wear-and-tear from all those extra charge-discharge cyles!

Now maybe we could save a few shekels with peak pricing of electricity. And maybe we could shave peak demand (fewer power stations). But does it all add up?  I confess I don't know. But I like my Prius the way it is for now.





]]> Plug-in Hybrids with Vehicle-to-Grid

As a devotee of conservation and tech solutions thereto it pains me to throw cold water on ideas like this one. But...
Grid-to-battery-to-grid energy conversion is not 100% efficient.
viz:
Charger/inverter efficiency AC-DC <100%  (it gets warm)
Battery charge efficiency <100% (it gets warm)
Battery discharge efficiency <100% (it gets warm)
Charger/inverter efficiency DC-AC <100% (it gets warm)

In my just-invented new age math: 4 x <100% = <<100%

And don't get me started on battery wear-and-tear from all those extra charge-discharge cyles!

Now maybe we could save a few shekels with peak pricing of electricity. And maybe we could shave peak demand (fewer power stations). But does it all add up?  I confess I don't know. But I like my Prius the way it is for now.





]]> Comment #3 by Matt G http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 02:01:09 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/3 Re: new math

In that case all we need to do is invent an AC battery and we'll cut the losses in half!

]]> Re: new math

In that case all we need to do is invent an AC battery and we'll cut the losses in half!

]]> Comment #4 by GreyFlcn http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 03:59:52 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/4 Unwarrented hysteria

As a devotee of conservation and tech solutions thereto it pains me to throw cold water on ideas like this one. But...

Congratulations, you just discoverd the second law of thermodynamics.
That said, name me one source of energy storage which doesn't pay a steeper penalty.

Furthermore these new batteries get about 40 years worth of chargelife, that we know of.
AltairNano keeps getting more and more charge cycles so it's hard to tell.

Frankly, with new lithium batteries the car will fall to pieces before the battery does.

PG&E's has already set up a program to purchase these batteries for utility storage.
http://blogs.business2.com/greenwombat/2007/06/photo_gree ...



]]> Unwarrented hysteria

As a devotee of conservation and tech solutions thereto it pains me to throw cold water on ideas like this one. But...

Congratulations, you just discoverd the second law of thermodynamics.
That said, name me one source of energy storage which doesn't pay a steeper penalty.

Furthermore these new batteries get about 40 years worth of chargelife, that we know of.
AltairNano keeps getting more and more charge cycles so it's hard to tell.

Frankly, with new lithium batteries the car will fall to pieces before the battery does.

PG&E's has already set up a program to purchase these batteries for utility storage.
http://blogs.business2.com/greenwombat/2007/06/photo_gree ...



]]> Comment #5 by GreyFlcn http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 04:03:36 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/5 Actually come to think of it

This might be an even better use of the batteries.

Run em down in electric cars, and then sell them to the utility for grid-to-grid.

]]> Actually come to think of it

This might be an even better use of the batteries.

Run em down in electric cars, and then sell them to the utility for grid-to-grid.

]]> Comment #6 by GreyFlcn http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 04:25:10 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/6 Cool part about this

They don't even need to be electric plugins for this

They could be hybrid batteries.

And by placing them at substations they'd have plenty of area to put em all, and use them in a distributed fashion.

]]> Cool part about this

They don't even need to be electric plugins for this

They could be hybrid batteries.

And by placing them at substations they'd have plenty of area to put em all, and use them in a distributed fashion.

]]> Comment #7 by Questionauthority http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 04:56:52 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/7 80% reduction in gasoline use nationwide?

The big potential here is not the jump from 41 mpg to 74 mpg, but rather the fact that 80% of all driving is less than 35 miles per day, within the range of the old electric vehicles of the '90s.  Just combine those batteries with current hybrid technology, and your gasoline engine wouldn't even turn on but maybe once a month, when you drive more than 35 miles that day. Most driving would be powered by the plug in your garage, but you'd have unlimited range via the hybrid engine when you need it. Cars would primarily be recharged at night when there is excess generating capacity. What would an 80% drop in gasoline useage do to the price of gas?Check it out @ pluginamerica.com.
Questionauthority
http://www.solaroneveryroof.com



]]> 80% reduction in gasoline use nationwide?

The big potential here is not the jump from 41 mpg to 74 mpg, but rather the fact that 80% of all driving is less than 35 miles per day, within the range of the old electric vehicles of the '90s.  Just combine those batteries with current hybrid technology, and your gasoline engine wouldn't even turn on but maybe once a month, when you drive more than 35 miles that day. Most driving would be powered by the plug in your garage, but you'd have unlimited range via the hybrid engine when you need it. Cars would primarily be recharged at night when there is excess generating capacity. What would an 80% drop in gasoline useage do to the price of gas?Check it out @ pluginamerica.com.
Questionauthority
http://www.solaroneveryroof.com



]]> Comment #8 by crotchety http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:29:48 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/8 Plug-in Hybrids with Vehicle-to-Grid (2)

GreyFlcn:  Sorry about my bout of unwarrented (sic) hysteria. I'm just about calmed down now.

On reflection I guess what bugs me is the idea of me as an individual sucking, say, 10kWh out of the grid at night , only to turn around and put back in, say, 6kWh during the day; the rest going up as heat. Then I'm to regard this as an unqualified "good".

I guess it's just an emotional view rather than a technical one. We hysterics tend to be that way.

Cheers!

]]> Plug-in Hybrids with Vehicle-to-Grid (2)

GreyFlcn:  Sorry about my bout of unwarrented (sic) hysteria. I'm just about calmed down now.

On reflection I guess what bugs me is the idea of me as an individual sucking, say, 10kWh out of the grid at night , only to turn around and put back in, say, 6kWh during the day; the rest going up as heat. Then I'm to regard this as an unqualified "good".

I guess it's just an emotional view rather than a technical one. We hysterics tend to be that way.

Cheers!

]]> Comment #9 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:33:58 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/9 Oink, oink


Why is it that Google has to pig up everything?  I mean, they do everything except innovate in their field of search.

They are worse than Microsoft!

I can't wait for the next generation of open source searchware to unseat them.

John Bailo
You Read It Here First



]]> Oink, oink


Why is it that Google has to pig up everything?  I mean, they do everything except innovate in their field of search.

They are worse than Microsoft!

I can't wait for the next generation of open source searchware to unseat them.

John Bailo
You Read It Here First



]]> Comment #10 by GreyFlcn http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:41:39 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/10 If by worse

If by worse, you mean worse at hanging onto their money, or charging people money.

Then yes, they are worse than Microsoft.

]]> If by worse

If by worse, you mean worse at hanging onto their money, or charging people money.

Then yes, they are worse than Microsoft.

]]> Comment #11 by JMG http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:00:54 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/11 "Dude ..."

James Kunstler, whom many love to despise, does an acerbic bit on Google; he apparently gave a talk there and was put off by the young millionaires' informal style of dress and by (what he considered) their hubris.  According to Kunstler, he got only comments and no questions about his "Long Emergency" spiel, and the comments boiled down to "Dude, we've got technology."  

He talks about this as being emblematic of Americans' persistent tendency to equate energy and technology.

Save the world: Reduce greenhouse gas emissions 5% annually.

]]> "Dude ..."

James Kunstler, whom many love to despise, does an acerbic bit on Google; he apparently gave a talk there and was put off by the young millionaires' informal style of dress and by (what he considered) their hubris.  According to Kunstler, he got only comments and no questions about his "Long Emergency" spiel, and the comments boiled down to "Dude, we've got technology."  

He talks about this as being emblematic of Americans' persistent tendency to equate energy and technology.

Save the world: Reduce greenhouse gas emissions 5% annually.

]]> Comment #12 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:57:11 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/12 Sorry about that, Dave

I think I'm the one that misled you about the Telsa roadster. My memory, she ain't what she used to be.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Sorry about that, Dave

I think I'm the one that misled you about the Telsa roadster. My memory, she ain't what she used to be.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Comment #13 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:05:28 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/13 I ride a plug-in hybrid everyday

The bike, consisting of hundreds of machined steel and aluminum parts cost $170, the exact same price as a single battery pack. Think about that. All we need now is mass production.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> I ride a plug-in hybrid everyday

The bike, consisting of hundreds of machined steel and aluminum parts cost $170, the exact same price as a single battery pack. Think about that. All we need now is mass production.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Comment #14 by Nucbuddy http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:39:06 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/14 Flatlined markets - why participate?

Biodiversivist wrote in the original post: Every energy wonk I know has high hopes around V2G.

Maybe that is because they do not know that when a market is made totally liquid, it flatlines -- and that a flatlined market provides no incentive to speculative participation.
images.thestreet.com/etf/etf/30413.gif


]]> Flatlined markets - why participate?

Biodiversivist wrote in the original post: Every energy wonk I know has high hopes around V2G.

Maybe that is because they do not know that when a market is made totally liquid, it flatlines -- and that a flatlined market provides no incentive to speculative participation.
images.thestreet.com/etf/etf/30413.gif


]]> Comment #15 by Nucbuddy http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:07:58 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/15 n

GreyFlcn wrote: Run em down in electric cars, and then sell them to the utility for grid-to-grid. [...] by placing them at substations they'd have plenty of area to put em all, and use them in a distributed fashion.

Utilities already use batteries. They provide ~30-seconds of backup. Unlike the batteries that you are suggesting, they are cost-effective.

]]> n

GreyFlcn wrote: Run em down in electric cars, and then sell them to the utility for grid-to-grid. [...] by placing them at substations they'd have plenty of area to put em all, and use them in a distributed fashion.

Utilities already use batteries. They provide ~30-seconds of backup. Unlike the batteries that you are suggesting, they are cost-effective.

]]> Comment #16 by Nucbuddy http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:10:41 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/16 n

Correction: David Roberts authored the original post.

]]> n

Correction: David Roberts authored the original post.

]]> Comment #17 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/ Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:09:12 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/google-tries-to-kickstart-an-energy-revolution/17 Hymotion

The Hymotion Prius plugin conversion uses the A123 battery pack.  12.5k extra for that, rumored to be 9.5k when introduced to the public.

The Ford Escape conversion is important too.  why?  Because government agencies like the US Forest service are required to buy american.

My guess is that the good people at google will use this tiny experiment to launch internet billing services for buying/selling renewable energy over the future renewable distributed generation and storage grid.

That will make google the new power company.  Gleaning a few tenths of a cent from each kwh exchanged.  Another mega billion revenue stream?  yep.  

Watch for broadband wireless internet that uses the power grid for a backbone and antenna to enable this necessary leap forward.  

You will sell kwh into the grid, from your solar or wind system at home, or your vehicle batteries or your vehicle backup generator (fuel cell/microturbine running on your own home generated biogas sometime soon) into the grid, then buy some back to recharge your plugin vehicvle batteries at work or the shopping center or school or even inductive (the new tuned resonant induction system from MIT) strips under the highway.

Wisconsin electric is paying 22 cents per kwh for solar PV.  A gold rush in distributed renewable power is coming and google will be opening up an assay office over the internet.  That's my guess.  Call me for details google I can work from home, hehey.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Hymotion

The Hymotion Prius plugin conversion uses the A123 battery pack.  12.5k extra for that, rumored to be 9.5k when introduced to the public.

The Ford Escape conversion is important too.  why?  Because government agencies like the US Forest service are required to buy american.

My guess is that the good people at google will use this tiny experiment to launch internet billing services for buying/selling renewable energy over the future renewable distributed generation and storage grid.

That will make google the new power company.  Gleaning a few tenths of a cent from each kwh exchanged.  Another mega billion revenue stream?  yep.  

Watch for broadband wireless internet that uses the power grid for a backbone and antenna to enable this necessary leap forward.  

You will sell kwh into the grid, from your solar or wind system at home, or your vehicle batteries or your vehicle backup generator (fuel cell/microturbine running on your own home generated biogas sometime soon) into the grid, then buy some back to recharge your plugin vehicvle batteries at work or the shopping center or school or even inductive (the new tuned resonant induction system from MIT) strips under the highway.

Wisconsin electric is paying 22 cents per kwh for solar PV.  A gold rush in distributed renewable power is coming and google will be opening up an assay office over the internet.  That's my guess.  Call me for details google I can work from home, hehey.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]>