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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for New superfood is higher in press-release fluff and poor journalism than your average carrot]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by wiscidea</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:09:21 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Why must they do this?</strong></p><p>I'll start by quoting myself (see other supercarrot post)...</p><p>
"To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure this carrot is necessary.... Is there an epidemic of people chowing down on too many carrots and not getting enough calcium from other foods. Grains and other staples are a different matter."</p><p>
Given the number of times I've been accused of being an industry shill or blinded by science or evil or whatever, I have to comment on this story.</p><p>
There are times when we really don't need a new solution, especially a new GMO, for an old problem. And this is very likely one of those times. I think GMOs are useful for a variety of purposes (and I will not debate that here). But how many people are calcium deficient because they eat carrots to the exclusion of everything else? How many people need a high-calcium carrot? People probably don't even eat as many carrots as they should to get their betacarotene!!! How's adding calcium to carrots going to help?</p><p>
Rather than push the supercarrots, it would be better to encourage consumption of something like broccoli. Unless I learn some very compelling information supporting the need for this carrot, I, confessed and vocal supporter of GMOs, must agree with Mr. Dillon.</p><p>
This really complicates efforts to educate people about where and when GMOs might be beneficial. Aaaaaaaarrrgh.</p>
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				<p><strong>Why must they do this?</strong></p><p>I'll start by quoting myself (see other supercarrot post)...</p><p>
"To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure this carrot is necessary.... Is there an epidemic of people chowing down on too many carrots and not getting enough calcium from other foods. Grains and other staples are a different matter."</p><p>
Given the number of times I've been accused of being an industry shill or blinded by science or evil or whatever, I have to comment on this story.</p><p>
There are times when we really don't need a new solution, especially a new GMO, for an old problem. And this is very likely one of those times. I think GMOs are useful for a variety of purposes (and I will not debate that here). But how many people are calcium deficient because they eat carrots to the exclusion of everything else? How many people need a high-calcium carrot? People probably don't even eat as many carrots as they should to get their betacarotene!!! How's adding calcium to carrots going to help?</p><p>
Rather than push the supercarrots, it would be better to encourage consumption of something like broccoli. Unless I learn some very compelling information supporting the need for this carrot, I, confessed and vocal supporter of GMOs, must agree with Mr. Dillon.</p><p>
This really complicates efforts to educate people about where and when GMOs might be beneficial. Aaaaaaaarrrgh.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 08:11:20 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Just because it's fun</strong></p><p>As I recall from organic chemistry classes many years ago, Coca-Cola still includes some extract from the coca leaf, but cocaine which comes out is then chemically removed. &nbsp;Our professor shared this tidbit with us primarily because the process by which the cocaine is removed is very similar to the process by which caffeine is removed from coffee and &nbsp;we were all about studying chemical processes - and had just done a lab (like most intro o-chem classes) where we learned how to decaffienate a coffee bean. &nbsp;BUT - like all things chemical, it's easy to get the first 99% removed, but hard to squeeze that last bit out, and that of course raised questions as to how much cocaine is still in coca cola, and interesting bits of math. &nbsp;The conclusion was that in order to get the same amount of cocaine into your system that you get from doing one line of coke, you'd need to drink about a case worth of soda. &nbsp;So, college dreams notwithstanding, no one had figured out a way to get cheap drugs.</p><p>
Of relevance to this story though, since the argument that calcium-enhanced carrots will protect you from osteoporosis seems to be about as logical as the argument that coca cola is a good way to get high...</p>
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				<p><strong>Just because it's fun</strong></p><p>As I recall from organic chemistry classes many years ago, Coca-Cola still includes some extract from the coca leaf, but cocaine which comes out is then chemically removed. &nbsp;Our professor shared this tidbit with us primarily because the process by which the cocaine is removed is very similar to the process by which caffeine is removed from coffee and &nbsp;we were all about studying chemical processes - and had just done a lab (like most intro o-chem classes) where we learned how to decaffienate a coffee bean. &nbsp;BUT - like all things chemical, it's easy to get the first 99% removed, but hard to squeeze that last bit out, and that of course raised questions as to how much cocaine is still in coca cola, and interesting bits of math. &nbsp;The conclusion was that in order to get the same amount of cocaine into your system that you get from doing one line of coke, you'd need to drink about a case worth of soda. &nbsp;So, college dreams notwithstanding, no one had figured out a way to get cheap drugs.</p><p>
Of relevance to this story though, since the argument that calcium-enhanced carrots will protect you from osteoporosis seems to be about as logical as the argument that coca cola is a good way to get high...</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Martha Hagood</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:50:14 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>You had to say cornflakes.</strong></p><p>An industrially farmed, over-processed, over-packaged, over-priced loser of a food. And I think the calcium is mostly added in the processing, along with all the other vitamins that you would get if you ate your vegetables, beans, molasses, etc. But thank you, thank you, for the line about taking the gene from cress and putting it where the sun don't shine. Priceless.</p>
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				<p><strong>You had to say cornflakes.</strong></p><p>An industrially farmed, over-processed, over-packaged, over-priced loser of a food. And I think the calcium is mostly added in the processing, along with all the other vitamins that you would get if you ate your vegetables, beans, molasses, etc. But thank you, thank you, for the line about taking the gene from cress and putting it where the sun don't shine. Priceless.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Anastasia</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:43:46 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>More than meets the eye...<p>So carrots with slightly higher calcium aren't going to change anything - the researchers themselves were the first to say so. <p>
Think of the carrots instead as a proof of concept. Carrots with higher calcium make us one step closer to maize with higher iron, wheat with higher folate, or a number of other changes that could help prevent vitamin deficiencies (and, consequently, prevent much disease and death). Sure, people like you and me who can afford a computer can also afford a balanced diet or fancy vitamins, but many people can not.<p>
This is the beneficial sort of genetic engineering that was discussed back before biotech companies focused only on crop improvements that would bring in the most profit, like herbicide resistance. The corporations have no impetus to develop for qualities that will benefit consumers - the possibility of profit does not warrant the R&amp;D expense. That's why it's necessary for university scientists to research such things, often with funding from sources such as the USDA, or non-profits such as HarvestPlus. I, for one, am excited that a genetically engineered food designed to improve human nutrition is being publicized. I imagine that Mr. Madrigal feels similarly.<p>
The fact that they chose an Arabidopsis gene is irrelevant here. Its genome is sequenced, and &nbsp;most of the genes have been categorized though projects like Arabidopsis 2010. Carrots have a similar gene themselves, but it likely isn't as well characterized as the one from Arabidopsis. It works as well as a native gene, and the carrots are still carrots.

<p>For more scientific discussion on GMOs, visit my blog: <a href="htp://www.geneticmaize.com" rel="nofollow">GeneticMaize.</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>More than meets the eye...<p>So carrots with slightly higher calcium aren't going to change anything - the researchers themselves were the first to say so. <p>
Think of the carrots instead as a proof of concept. Carrots with higher calcium make us one step closer to maize with higher iron, wheat with higher folate, or a number of other changes that could help prevent vitamin deficiencies (and, consequently, prevent much disease and death). Sure, people like you and me who can afford a computer can also afford a balanced diet or fancy vitamins, but many people can not.<p>
This is the beneficial sort of genetic engineering that was discussed back before biotech companies focused only on crop improvements that would bring in the most profit, like herbicide resistance. The corporations have no impetus to develop for qualities that will benefit consumers - the possibility of profit does not warrant the R&amp;D expense. That's why it's necessary for university scientists to research such things, often with funding from sources such as the USDA, or non-profits such as HarvestPlus. I, for one, am excited that a genetically engineered food designed to improve human nutrition is being publicized. I imagine that Mr. Madrigal feels similarly.<p>
The fact that they chose an Arabidopsis gene is irrelevant here. Its genome is sequenced, and &nbsp;most of the genes have been categorized though projects like Arabidopsis 2010. Carrots have a similar gene themselves, but it likely isn't as well characterized as the one from Arabidopsis. It works as well as a native gene, and the carrots are still carrots.

<p>For more scientific discussion on GMOs, visit my blog: <a href="htp://www.geneticmaize.com" rel="nofollow">GeneticMaize.</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:54:05 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Or.....we could eat real food.<p>What a concept. It's most likely that osteoporosis is caused by a lack of variety in the diet combined with lack of exercise during crucial bone-forming years. It just so happens that the best source of bio-available calcium is also where the cow gets it; leafy green vegetables. <p>
The continuos greenwashing of the GMO food industry just sickens me. It benefits only the agribusiness giants like Monsanto and damages everything and everyone else. The worst part of it all is that it represents an unacceptable destruction of the potential of genetic science.<p>
We could have everbearing cherry, plum, and peach trees. Mulberry's that produce fat starch-rich seeds like rice, Avocados' with smaller pits. Any number of tree crops modified slightly to reduce the need for hired labor or that would produce grain equivalents to rice or corn, perennial grains that don't expose the soil to the wind.<p>
Instead we get glow-in-the-dark tobacco, poison-proof corn and herbicide resistant rapeseed plants. It's a damn waste. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Or.....we could eat real food.<p>What a concept. It's most likely that osteoporosis is caused by a lack of variety in the diet combined with lack of exercise during crucial bone-forming years. It just so happens that the best source of bio-available calcium is also where the cow gets it; leafy green vegetables. <p>
The continuos greenwashing of the GMO food industry just sickens me. It benefits only the agribusiness giants like Monsanto and damages everything and everyone else. The worst part of it all is that it represents an unacceptable destruction of the potential of genetic science.<p>
We could have everbearing cherry, plum, and peach trees. Mulberry's that produce fat starch-rich seeds like rice, Avocados' with smaller pits. Any number of tree crops modified slightly to reduce the need for hired labor or that would produce grain equivalents to rice or corn, perennial grains that don't expose the soil to the wind.<p>
Instead we get glow-in-the-dark tobacco, poison-proof corn and herbicide resistant rapeseed plants. It's a damn waste. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by PermieWriter</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:48:37 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Brassicas<p>Perhaps it would be more sensible to try different cultivation techniques to increase calcium availability rather than engineering for those charactaristics. Maybe put some oyster shell in the soil when one grows those carrots.<p>
Oh, sorry, that's crazy talk.<p>
But while all this is going on, there are some perennial brassicas like sea chard and tree collards that both provide lots of calcium and other nutrients and make an excellent building material (i.e. they need thorough cooking).

<p><a href="http://garden2table.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Eat what you grow, grow what you eat</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Brassicas<p>Perhaps it would be more sensible to try different cultivation techniques to increase calcium availability rather than engineering for those charactaristics. Maybe put some oyster shell in the soil when one grows those carrots.<p>
Oh, sorry, that's crazy talk.<p>
But while all this is going on, there are some perennial brassicas like sea chard and tree collards that both provide lots of calcium and other nutrients and make an excellent building material (i.e. they need thorough cooking).

<p><a href="http://garden2table.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Eat what you grow, grow what you eat</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by wiscidea</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 06:30:03 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Just Curious...<p>... so I looked at the USDA food nutrient database...<p>
<a href="http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display/index.php?info_center=4&amp;tax_level=2&amp;tax_subject=279&amp;level3_id=0&amp;level4_id=0&amp;level5_id=0&amp;topic_id=1387&amp;&amp;placement_default=0" rel="nofollow">http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display/index.php?info_cente ...<p>
Sorted foods by calcium content...<p>
<a href="http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR20/nutrlist/sr20w301.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR20/nutrlist/ ...<p>
[There is a lot of processed foods toward the top of the list, but there are also a lot of fruits, vegetables, and grains long before you see carrots.]<p>
I appears one could increase their calcium intake by replacing that serving of carrots with a serving of tomato, almonds, papaya, garbanzo beans, and a lot of other things that contain 50% more calcium than carrots.<p>
Or perhaps just eat a kosher dill pickle or mango in addition to the carrots. That would give you 50% more calcium than from carrots alone.<p>
I was wondering if this was important because some people can't or don't want to eat dairy products, but there are clearly far easier ways to add calcium, and a whole bunch of other important nutrients, to our diets -- even in areas where there might be a shortage of good food -- than via "supercarrots".</p></p></p></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Just Curious...<p>... so I looked at the USDA food nutrient database...<p>
<a href="http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display/index.php?info_center=4&amp;tax_level=2&amp;tax_subject=279&amp;level3_id=0&amp;level4_id=0&amp;level5_id=0&amp;topic_id=1387&amp;&amp;placement_default=0" rel="nofollow">http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display/index.php?info_cente ...<p>
Sorted foods by calcium content...<p>
<a href="http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR20/nutrlist/sr20w301.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR20/nutrlist/ ...<p>
[There is a lot of processed foods toward the top of the list, but there are also a lot of fruits, vegetables, and grains long before you see carrots.]<p>
I appears one could increase their calcium intake by replacing that serving of carrots with a serving of tomato, almonds, papaya, garbanzo beans, and a lot of other things that contain 50% more calcium than carrots.<p>
Or perhaps just eat a kosher dill pickle or mango in addition to the carrots. That would give you 50% more calcium than from carrots alone.<p>
I was wondering if this was important because some people can't or don't want to eat dairy products, but there are clearly far easier ways to add calcium, and a whole bunch of other important nutrients, to our diets -- even in areas where there might be a shortage of good food -- than via "supercarrots".</p></p></p></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by kipp</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:04:37 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>some people don't like brassica...</strong></p><p>I'm a super-taster - so the flavor and aroma of almost all brassica make me want to retch. I've gotten to be somewhat less-so over the years, but when I was a kid I would never eat any brassica or niteshades besides potatoes. Getting nutrition into people (esp kids) is as much about what is available as it is about what a person will actually consume. There are certainly other ways to get calcium than an early-model gm carrot - but if that carrot was as nutritious as broccoli, spinach, and soybeans combined then it would be alot easier for people like to get proper nutrition - from eating some as "real" as a carrot.</p><p>
Since brassica and carrot grow side-by-side in the garden, I'm not so nervous about moving a gene or two between them. Night-glow carrots with jellyfish genes are a little freaky - the equivalent of a slight cross between carrots and spinach is not so frightening...</p>
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				<p><strong>some people don't like brassica...</strong></p><p>I'm a super-taster - so the flavor and aroma of almost all brassica make me want to retch. I've gotten to be somewhat less-so over the years, but when I was a kid I would never eat any brassica or niteshades besides potatoes. Getting nutrition into people (esp kids) is as much about what is available as it is about what a person will actually consume. There are certainly other ways to get calcium than an early-model gm carrot - but if that carrot was as nutritious as broccoli, spinach, and soybeans combined then it would be alot easier for people like to get proper nutrition - from eating some as "real" as a carrot.</p><p>
Since brassica and carrot grow side-by-side in the garden, I'm not so nervous about moving a gene or two between them. Night-glow carrots with jellyfish genes are a little freaky - the equivalent of a slight cross between carrots and spinach is not so frightening...</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by alexismadrigal</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/genetically-engineered-supercarrot/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:57:30 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Who says launching GMO 2.0 is a good thing?<p>Hey Matt,<p>
Glad you went in-depth on the GM carrot's environmental impact. That wasn't really the intent of my post. Wired is a tech/biz mag with a some environmental reportage. It has a different focus from Grist, which is a fantastic publication that I don't look to for tech reporting. <p>
I do take issue with the representation of my post.Where did I say that this carrot would affect the nation's nutrition? I said it "had a powerful marketing hook" and pointed to the same overheated headlines that you did! That wasn't an endorsement of its marketability. In fact, the major thrust of the post, as seen by its introduction in the 2nd sentence, was to use the carrot as a proof point for the agritech biz's plans to introduce produce, which I had previously discussed in a post entitled, "The Difficult Science and Economics of Genetically Modified Produce" (<a href="http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/11/the-difficult-e.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/11/the-difficult- ...)<p>
That post makes a lot of the points you just made about the nature of GM crops. <p>
Carrots, or any other produce, with nutrient enhancements will meet with an "uninformed marketplace." AND they could have an impact in that marketplace. Just because we don't want that to be the case doesn't make it untrue! Isn't the media supposed to report on reality as best we determine it? I mean, if we had a very informed marketplace, we wouldn't have a corn-based food system and we certainly wouldn't eat meat from the places where it's grown and harvested. <p>
One thing that has occurred in the GM debate that I find very strange and disconcerting is that anti-GMO people jump on simply reporting on GM crops as supporting them in any form that the most evil agribusinessman &nbsp;might see fit to plant them. &nbsp;And that's just not the case. <p>
Do I know about the failure of golden rice and its cousins? Yes. Do I know that GM crops haven't delivered on their promises in the last 15 years? Yes. Does that mean that no genetically modified crop could ever have a positive impact in the world? I don't know and we don't know. And as long as we don't know, attempts to make them more nutritious or more marketable will remain a story. Very few other places, outside the dedicated green media, are even reporting on agritech's plans to bring GM produce into the marketplace.<p>
I mean, don't you WANT people to know what Monsanto and Syngenta are planning? <p>
In any case, all press is good press, right? Thanks for the link and sorry for the rant. <p>
Best,<p>
Alexis Madrigal</p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Who says launching GMO 2.0 is a good thing?<p>Hey Matt,<p>
Glad you went in-depth on the GM carrot's environmental impact. That wasn't really the intent of my post. Wired is a tech/biz mag with a some environmental reportage. It has a different focus from Grist, which is a fantastic publication that I don't look to for tech reporting. <p>
I do take issue with the representation of my post.Where did I say that this carrot would affect the nation's nutrition? I said it "had a powerful marketing hook" and pointed to the same overheated headlines that you did! That wasn't an endorsement of its marketability. In fact, the major thrust of the post, as seen by its introduction in the 2nd sentence, was to use the carrot as a proof point for the agritech biz's plans to introduce produce, which I had previously discussed in a post entitled, "The Difficult Science and Economics of Genetically Modified Produce" (<a href="http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/11/the-difficult-e.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/11/the-difficult- ...)<p>
That post makes a lot of the points you just made about the nature of GM crops. <p>
Carrots, or any other produce, with nutrient enhancements will meet with an "uninformed marketplace." AND they could have an impact in that marketplace. Just because we don't want that to be the case doesn't make it untrue! Isn't the media supposed to report on reality as best we determine it? I mean, if we had a very informed marketplace, we wouldn't have a corn-based food system and we certainly wouldn't eat meat from the places where it's grown and harvested. <p>
One thing that has occurred in the GM debate that I find very strange and disconcerting is that anti-GMO people jump on simply reporting on GM crops as supporting them in any form that the most evil agribusinessman &nbsp;might see fit to plant them. &nbsp;And that's just not the case. <p>
Do I know about the failure of golden rice and its cousins? Yes. Do I know that GM crops haven't delivered on their promises in the last 15 years? Yes. Does that mean that no genetically modified crop could ever have a positive impact in the world? I don't know and we don't know. And as long as we don't know, attempts to make them more nutritious or more marketable will remain a story. Very few other places, outside the dedicated green media, are even reporting on agritech's plans to bring GM produce into the marketplace.<p>
I mean, don't you WANT people to know what Monsanto and Syngenta are planning? <p>
In any case, all press is good press, right? Thanks for the link and sorry for the rant. <p>
Best,<p>
Alexis Madrigal</p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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