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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for David Rieff on the Gates Foundation&#8217;s &#8216;Green Revolution in Africa&#8217;]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Jonas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:41:14 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Just a few words</strong></p><p>Tom Philpott wrote: No mention of low-tech ways of boosting yields through biodiversity and compost; no mention of local agricultural knowledge. </p><p>
Norman Borlaug responds:<br>
"If [environmentalists] lived for just one month among the misery of the developing world, as I have for 50 years, they'd be crying out for tractors and fertiliser and irrigation canals."  </p><p>
Tom, have you ever lived and farmed in Africa? </br></p>
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				<p><strong>Just a few words</strong></p><p>Tom Philpott wrote: No mention of low-tech ways of boosting yields through biodiversity and compost; no mention of local agricultural knowledge. </p><p>
Norman Borlaug responds:<br>
"If [environmentalists] lived for just one month among the misery of the developing world, as I have for 50 years, they'd be crying out for tractors and fertiliser and irrigation canals."  </p><p>
Tom, have you ever lived and farmed in Africa? </br></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 03:03:56 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Humans v. The Earth</strong></p><p>Jonas and Norman Borlaug bring into stark contrast the real choice here. &nbsp;Either you support even further human overpopulation and environmental destruction or you support the rest of the Earth, which includes all other species, and the land, air, and water. &nbsp;By the statement quoted by Jonas, he shows his true colors, which are NOT as an environmentalist. &nbsp;What should really be said is, if you non-environmentalists would spend some time in the natural environment -- the minuscule amount that's left of it -- and have some empathy for something non human, you'd demand a one-child limit for humans and immediately eliminate all pesticides and other unnatural human chemicals.</p>
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				<p><strong>Humans v. The Earth</strong></p><p>Jonas and Norman Borlaug bring into stark contrast the real choice here. &nbsp;Either you support even further human overpopulation and environmental destruction or you support the rest of the Earth, which includes all other species, and the land, air, and water. &nbsp;By the statement quoted by Jonas, he shows his true colors, which are NOT as an environmentalist. &nbsp;What should really be said is, if you non-environmentalists would spend some time in the natural environment -- the minuscule amount that's left of it -- and have some empathy for something non human, you'd demand a one-child limit for humans and immediately eliminate all pesticides and other unnatural human chemicals.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 03:13:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Are We (Humans) Really That Bad?</strong></p><p><br>
In America there are 1.9 billion acres of land.</p><p>
Yet, 75 percent of our population lives on 66 million of those!</p><p>
Far from destroying the planet, we are paupers when it comes to the amount of land that each person has.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Are We (Humans) Really That Bad?</strong></p><p><br>
In America there are 1.9 billion acres of land.</p><p>
Yet, 75 percent of our population lives on 66 million of those!</p><p>
Far from destroying the planet, we are paupers when it comes to the amount of land that each person has.</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Jonas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:24:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Wolverine, frankly it's not black and white</strong></p><p>Wolverine, I summarized your vision at an other post here on Grist. To you it comes simplistically down to: good versus evil.</p><p>
Scientists don't think that way. They look at reality. And what did they find?</p><p>
They found that if you give people a certain level of development and security, their fertility rates drop. Look at Europe, Japan, China, Russia,... these regions even have <strong>declining</strong> populations. </p><p>
Now where do you find the highest fertility rate on the planet? Exactly, in the world's most food insecure regions: Central Africa, 7 kids per woman, and populations booming.</p><p>
The best thing to do is to help speed up the transition towards lower fertility rates in these countries, which implies food security and working agricultural systems - that's the sine qua non for development. </p><p>
Next up follows a transition from agrarian to (post)industrial societies, a stabilisation of populations levels, and then a decline. </p><p>
Even a typical 'developing' country like Brazil recently announced that it's population will begin to decline from 2035 onwards. Can you imagine? Brazil! Well, guess what, the country has also massively succeeded in boosting food security and in raising rural incomes. </p><p>
So get of your simplistic horse please. The real choice is between: high fertility rates and rapidly growing populations who keep dieing and living in misery, on the one hand, and the 'long road' to modernity and ultimately declining populations. </p><p>
The latter is better for the environment (and obviously so for people too, because starving is not so pleasant, in case you wonder.)</p>
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				<p><strong>Wolverine, frankly it's not black and white</strong></p><p>Wolverine, I summarized your vision at an other post here on Grist. To you it comes simplistically down to: good versus evil.</p><p>
Scientists don't think that way. They look at reality. And what did they find?</p><p>
They found that if you give people a certain level of development and security, their fertility rates drop. Look at Europe, Japan, China, Russia,... these regions even have <strong>declining</strong> populations. </p><p>
Now where do you find the highest fertility rate on the planet? Exactly, in the world's most food insecure regions: Central Africa, 7 kids per woman, and populations booming.</p><p>
The best thing to do is to help speed up the transition towards lower fertility rates in these countries, which implies food security and working agricultural systems - that's the sine qua non for development. </p><p>
Next up follows a transition from agrarian to (post)industrial societies, a stabilisation of populations levels, and then a decline. </p><p>
Even a typical 'developing' country like Brazil recently announced that it's population will begin to decline from 2035 onwards. Can you imagine? Brazil! Well, guess what, the country has also massively succeeded in boosting food security and in raising rural incomes. </p><p>
So get of your simplistic horse please. The real choice is between: high fertility rates and rapidly growing populations who keep dieing and living in misery, on the one hand, and the 'long road' to modernity and ultimately declining populations. </p><p>
The latter is better for the environment (and obviously so for people too, because starving is not so pleasant, in case you wonder.)</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Jonas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:33:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Get a ticket<p>Wolverine, you should book a ticket to a rural village in Africa too. You can join Tom on the same plane. <p>
Then you can learn what farmers there want. Because now all you do is project your right-wing bourgeois ideas on the world, ideas that can only come from someone who lives in opulent luxury and has not the vaguest clue about the reality on the ground. <p>
Or you can start by reading the actual words of a farmer in Malawi. Here, the BBC made the trip for you:<p>
<strong>Seeking Africa's green revolution<p>
October 2008.<p>
From the begging bowl to the bread basket: in just two years, Malawi has gone from famine to food surplus - a minor agricultural miracle. <p>
[...]<p>
And it is not only maize. There are hybrids for every local crop - cassava, sweet potato, soya, ground nuts and legumes.<p>
But the most remarkable thing about these "miracle seeds" is that many are not new at all.<p>
"They have been with us for decades, but they never made it to the fields," says Agra's Fred Muhhuku, an expert on agronomics in East Africa.<p>
"Traditionally, farmers have either been too poor or too afraid to take a chance on these new varieties, even though they can triple their yields," he explained.<p>
"If they plant their hardy traditional strains, they know that come drought or flood, some crop will survive to harvest. The harvest will be tiny - maybe 800kg per hectare - but it is guaranteed, so they take no chances." <p>
The result was six successive years of food shortage in Malawi - beginning in 2000.<p>
"And there was no lack of rains, I can tell you," says Dr Jeffrey Luhanga, technical co-ordinator at the Ministry for Agriculture.<p>
"I experienced the famine in 2005; there were lines of people queuing for food aid.<p>
"The thing you have to remember is that these were the ones who were still strong enough to walk to the depots. The hungriest - the ones who really needed the food - they were stuck at home, starving.<p>
"Now look around Malawi, you see only healthy faces. Yes, this is a green revolution. And it is being driven by science."<p>
He reels off a list of programmes - irrigation, agronomy, planting patterns, science-based economic practices.<p>
"These technologies have been in our research institutes for years, but they went nowhere. Now, for the first time, the technology is in the farmers' hands." <p>
[...] <p>
<strong>"We hear this accusation from western development workers. We are told 'why make farmers buy seeds every year? Why let the companies trap you?' But this is based on a misunderstanding. Storing the hybrid seeds - it takes a lot of technical knowledge.<p>
"The farmers can stick to their traditional ways. But the yields are not worth their sweat." <p>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7651977.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7651977.stm <p>
<p>
Wolverine, you too can get rid of your misunderstandings. Just book the ticket. Norman Borlaug aks this from you. It's the least you can do. </p></p></a></p></p></strong></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Get a ticket<p>Wolverine, you should book a ticket to a rural village in Africa too. You can join Tom on the same plane. <p>
Then you can learn what farmers there want. Because now all you do is project your right-wing bourgeois ideas on the world, ideas that can only come from someone who lives in opulent luxury and has not the vaguest clue about the reality on the ground. <p>
Or you can start by reading the actual words of a farmer in Malawi. Here, the BBC made the trip for you:<p>
<strong>Seeking Africa's green revolution<p>
October 2008.<p>
From the begging bowl to the bread basket: in just two years, Malawi has gone from famine to food surplus - a minor agricultural miracle. <p>
[...]<p>
And it is not only maize. There are hybrids for every local crop - cassava, sweet potato, soya, ground nuts and legumes.<p>
But the most remarkable thing about these "miracle seeds" is that many are not new at all.<p>
"They have been with us for decades, but they never made it to the fields," says Agra's Fred Muhhuku, an expert on agronomics in East Africa.<p>
"Traditionally, farmers have either been too poor or too afraid to take a chance on these new varieties, even though they can triple their yields," he explained.<p>
"If they plant their hardy traditional strains, they know that come drought or flood, some crop will survive to harvest. The harvest will be tiny - maybe 800kg per hectare - but it is guaranteed, so they take no chances." <p>
The result was six successive years of food shortage in Malawi - beginning in 2000.<p>
"And there was no lack of rains, I can tell you," says Dr Jeffrey Luhanga, technical co-ordinator at the Ministry for Agriculture.<p>
"I experienced the famine in 2005; there were lines of people queuing for food aid.<p>
"The thing you have to remember is that these were the ones who were still strong enough to walk to the depots. The hungriest - the ones who really needed the food - they were stuck at home, starving.<p>
"Now look around Malawi, you see only healthy faces. Yes, this is a green revolution. And it is being driven by science."<p>
He reels off a list of programmes - irrigation, agronomy, planting patterns, science-based economic practices.<p>
"These technologies have been in our research institutes for years, but they went nowhere. Now, for the first time, the technology is in the farmers' hands." <p>
[...] <p>
<strong>"We hear this accusation from western development workers. We are told 'why make farmers buy seeds every year? Why let the companies trap you?' But this is based on a misunderstanding. Storing the hybrid seeds - it takes a lot of technical knowledge.<p>
"The farmers can stick to their traditional ways. But the yields are not worth their sweat." <p>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7651977.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7651977.stm <p>
<p>
Wolverine, you too can get rid of your misunderstandings. Just book the ticket. Norman Borlaug aks this from you. It's the least you can do. </p></p></a></p></p></strong></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Whiskerfish</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 01:21:26 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/6</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>false choices, again</strong></p><p>Jonas</p><p>
my feeling is that many African farmers 'cry out' for industrial ag because that's what's presented to them as being 'modern' and they can see the reliable yields that it delivers.</p><p>
There's little question that many traditional 'slash and burn' techniques used in Africa are inadequate, unreliable and (yes) environmentally-damaging.</p><p>
But all over the continent there are people very successfully building eco-friendly and highly productive farms using permaculture techniques and the like. They just don't have access to the politicians, marketing budgets and so on that the Monsantos do. </p><p>
The fertilizer subsidies in Malawi have boosted yields: We need to ask, though, 'is there a better way'? </p><p>
Cheers</p><p>
Whiskerfish</p>
			]]></description>
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				<p><strong>false choices, again</strong></p><p>Jonas</p><p>
my feeling is that many African farmers 'cry out' for industrial ag because that's what's presented to them as being 'modern' and they can see the reliable yields that it delivers.</p><p>
There's little question that many traditional 'slash and burn' techniques used in Africa are inadequate, unreliable and (yes) environmentally-damaging.</p><p>
But all over the continent there are people very successfully building eco-friendly and highly productive farms using permaculture techniques and the like. They just don't have access to the politicians, marketing budgets and so on that the Monsantos do. </p><p>
The fertilizer subsidies in Malawi have boosted yields: We need to ask, though, 'is there a better way'? </p><p>
Cheers</p><p>
Whiskerfish</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Avelhingst</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 15:50:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/gates-of-heaven-or-hell/7</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>l'Afrique</strong></p><p>One thing to keep in mind when considering agriculture in Africa: the soil itself, across the continent (with the exception of the Ethiopian highlands and well-watered sections of the Rift [and part of Chad]) is very very old and highly weathered. &nbsp;As a result, the fields are very low in native fertility and generally become easy targets for erosion. &nbsp;We, the UN or other donors, and for-profit enterprises can discuss crops until we are blue in the face - but until soil and fertility management become top priorities, scarcity, deprivation, and the inability to resist the effects of too much or too little moisture will continue to bedevil all attempts to ameliorate the situation. &nbsp;<br>
What, then, happens to peasants who take initiative and improve their soils and hence their crop yields? &nbsp;Who knows! &nbsp;The effemeral nature of land tenure or rights-of-access in many African countries cannot but stymie efforts of farmers. &nbsp;If someone likes your land (say, a corrupt petty government officer) and can appropriate it through intimidation, then what incentive does said farmer have to improve his or her farm? &nbsp;<br>
&nbsp; The night grows old. &nbsp;Perhaps I should sleep and feel more optimistic in the morning. &nbsp;However, tonight it lays before me like an arid plain; nigh insurmountable.<br>
</br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>l'Afrique</strong></p><p>One thing to keep in mind when considering agriculture in Africa: the soil itself, across the continent (with the exception of the Ethiopian highlands and well-watered sections of the Rift [and part of Chad]) is very very old and highly weathered. &nbsp;As a result, the fields are very low in native fertility and generally become easy targets for erosion. &nbsp;We, the UN or other donors, and for-profit enterprises can discuss crops until we are blue in the face - but until soil and fertility management become top priorities, scarcity, deprivation, and the inability to resist the effects of too much or too little moisture will continue to bedevil all attempts to ameliorate the situation. &nbsp;<br>
What, then, happens to peasants who take initiative and improve their soils and hence their crop yields? &nbsp;Who knows! &nbsp;The effemeral nature of land tenure or rights-of-access in many African countries cannot but stymie efforts of farmers. &nbsp;If someone likes your land (say, a corrupt petty government officer) and can appropriate it through intimidation, then what incentive does said farmer have to improve his or her farm? &nbsp;<br>
&nbsp; The night grows old. &nbsp;Perhaps I should sleep and feel more optimistic in the morning. &nbsp;However, tonight it lays before me like an arid plain; nigh insurmountable.<br>
</br></br></br></p>
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