<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for A weak economy brings a diminished appetite for curbs on carbon emissions]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by stevenearlsalmony http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/ Fri, 19 Sep 2008 05:26:26 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/1 What are the primary causes.......

..... of the financial meltdown and the looming threat of an global economic calamity?

First, the leaders in my generation of elders wish to live without having to accept limits to growth of seemingly endless economic globalization, of increasing per capita consumption and skyrocketing human population numbers; our desires are evidently insatiable. We choose to believe anything that is politically convenient, economically expedient and socially agreeable; our way of life is not negotiable. We dare anyone to question our values or behaviors.
We religiously promote our widely shared and consensually-validated fantasies of `real' endless economic growth and soon to be unsustainable overconsumption, overproduction and overpopulation activities, and in so doing deny that Earth has limited resources and frangible ecosystems upon which the survival of life as we know it depends.

Second, my not-so-great generation appears to be doing a disservice to everything and everyone but ourselves. We are the "what's in it for me generation." We demonstrate precious little regard for the maintenance of the integrity of Earth; shallow willingness to actually protect the environment from crippling degradation; lack of serious consideration for the preservation of biodiversity, wilderness, and a good enough future for our children and coming generations; and no appreciation of the vital understanding that humans are no more or less than magnificent living beings with "feet of clay."

Perhaps we live in unsustainable ways in our planetary home; but we are proud of it nonetheless. Certainly, we will "have our cake and eat it, too." We will own fleets of cars, fly around in thousands of private jets, live in McMansions, exchange secret handshakes, frequent exclusive clubs and distant hideouts, and risk nothing of value to us. We will live long, large and free. Please do not bother us with the problems of the world. We choose not to hear, see or speak of them. We are the economic powerbrokers, their bought-and-paid-for politicians and the many minions in the mass media. We hold the much of the world's wealth and the extraordinary power great wealth purchases. If left to our own devices, we will continue in the exercise of our `inalienable rights' to outrageously consume Earth's limited resources; to recklessly expand economic globalization unto every corner of our natural world and, guess what, beyond; and to carelessly consent to the unbridled global growth of human numbers so that where there are now 6+ billion people, by 2050 we will have 9+ billion members of the human community and, guess what, even more people, perhaps billions more in the distant future, if that is what we desire.

We are the reigning, self-proclaimed masters of the universe. We enjoy freedom and living without limits; of course, we adamantly eschew any talk of the personal responsibilities that come with the exercise of personal freedoms or any discussion of the existence of biophysical limitations of any kind.

We deny the existence of human limits and Earth's limitations.

Please understand that we do not want anyone presenting us with scientific evidence that we could be living unsustainably in an artificially designed, temporary world of our own making....a manmade world filling up with gigantic enterprises, virtual mountains of material possessions, and boundless amounts of filthy lucre.

Third, most of our top rank experts appear not to have found adequate ways of communicating to the family of humanity what people somehow need to hear, see and understand: the rapacious dissipation of Earth's limited resources, the relentless degradation of the planet's environment, and the approaching destruction of the Earth as a fit place for human habitation by the human species, when taken together, appear to be proceeding at breakneck speed toward the precipitation of a catastrophic ecological wreckage of some sort unless, of course, the world's colossal, ever expanding, artificially designed, manmade global political economy continues to speed headlong toward the monolithic `wall' called "unsustainability" at which point the runaway economy crashes before Earth's ecology is collapsed.

Who knows, perhaps we can realistically and hopefully hold onto the expectation that behavioral changes in the direction of sustainable production, per human consumption, and propagation are in the offing.....changes that save both the economy and the Creation.

Steven Earl Salmony
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population,
established 2001
http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/index.php



]]> What are the primary causes.......

..... of the financial meltdown and the looming threat of an global economic calamity?

First, the leaders in my generation of elders wish to live without having to accept limits to growth of seemingly endless economic globalization, of increasing per capita consumption and skyrocketing human population numbers; our desires are evidently insatiable. We choose to believe anything that is politically convenient, economically expedient and socially agreeable; our way of life is not negotiable. We dare anyone to question our values or behaviors.
We religiously promote our widely shared and consensually-validated fantasies of `real' endless economic growth and soon to be unsustainable overconsumption, overproduction and overpopulation activities, and in so doing deny that Earth has limited resources and frangible ecosystems upon which the survival of life as we know it depends.

Second, my not-so-great generation appears to be doing a disservice to everything and everyone but ourselves. We are the "what's in it for me generation." We demonstrate precious little regard for the maintenance of the integrity of Earth; shallow willingness to actually protect the environment from crippling degradation; lack of serious consideration for the preservation of biodiversity, wilderness, and a good enough future for our children and coming generations; and no appreciation of the vital understanding that humans are no more or less than magnificent living beings with "feet of clay."

Perhaps we live in unsustainable ways in our planetary home; but we are proud of it nonetheless. Certainly, we will "have our cake and eat it, too." We will own fleets of cars, fly around in thousands of private jets, live in McMansions, exchange secret handshakes, frequent exclusive clubs and distant hideouts, and risk nothing of value to us. We will live long, large and free. Please do not bother us with the problems of the world. We choose not to hear, see or speak of them. We are the economic powerbrokers, their bought-and-paid-for politicians and the many minions in the mass media. We hold the much of the world's wealth and the extraordinary power great wealth purchases. If left to our own devices, we will continue in the exercise of our `inalienable rights' to outrageously consume Earth's limited resources; to recklessly expand economic globalization unto every corner of our natural world and, guess what, beyond; and to carelessly consent to the unbridled global growth of human numbers so that where there are now 6+ billion people, by 2050 we will have 9+ billion members of the human community and, guess what, even more people, perhaps billions more in the distant future, if that is what we desire.

We are the reigning, self-proclaimed masters of the universe. We enjoy freedom and living without limits; of course, we adamantly eschew any talk of the personal responsibilities that come with the exercise of personal freedoms or any discussion of the existence of biophysical limitations of any kind.

We deny the existence of human limits and Earth's limitations.

Please understand that we do not want anyone presenting us with scientific evidence that we could be living unsustainably in an artificially designed, temporary world of our own making....a manmade world filling up with gigantic enterprises, virtual mountains of material possessions, and boundless amounts of filthy lucre.

Third, most of our top rank experts appear not to have found adequate ways of communicating to the family of humanity what people somehow need to hear, see and understand: the rapacious dissipation of Earth's limited resources, the relentless degradation of the planet's environment, and the approaching destruction of the Earth as a fit place for human habitation by the human species, when taken together, appear to be proceeding at breakneck speed toward the precipitation of a catastrophic ecological wreckage of some sort unless, of course, the world's colossal, ever expanding, artificially designed, manmade global political economy continues to speed headlong toward the monolithic `wall' called "unsustainability" at which point the runaway economy crashes before Earth's ecology is collapsed.

Who knows, perhaps we can realistically and hopefully hold onto the expectation that behavioral changes in the direction of sustainable production, per human consumption, and propagation are in the offing.....changes that save both the economy and the Creation.

Steven Earl Salmony
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population,
established 2001
http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/index.php



]]> Comment #2 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/ Fri, 19 Sep 2008 06:03:34 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/2 Steve --

I think history teaches us that our current Masters of the Universe are acting pretty much the same as Masters of the Universe have always acted: selfishly, and with no concern for the environment around them.  Perhaps we can learn from the indigenous peoples from around the world to respect the environment, and graft that onto our modern technologies.  

But there is also one new social "technology" that we now have: democracy.  The current Masters of the Universe are a holdover from nondemocratic times, it seems to me.  They sit on top of vast economic dictatorships.  The sooner we move toward economic democracy, the better, no?

]]> Steve --

I think history teaches us that our current Masters of the Universe are acting pretty much the same as Masters of the Universe have always acted: selfishly, and with no concern for the environment around them.  Perhaps we can learn from the indigenous peoples from around the world to respect the environment, and graft that onto our modern technologies.  

But there is also one new social "technology" that we now have: democracy.  The current Masters of the Universe are a holdover from nondemocratic times, it seems to me.  They sit on top of vast economic dictatorships.  The sooner we move toward economic democracy, the better, no?

]]> Comment #3 by GonzoDon http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/ Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:32:06 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/3 Bringing gas prices down

Recently, the masses have been screaming more loudly than ever that we must bring gas prices down in the U.S. by just "drilling baby drilling" at the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge.

And they may be correct, if by "bringing gas prices down" you mean lowering the per-gallon price by maybe two or three cents in perhaps 10-15 years.

Now compare to that the fact that gasoline prices -- at least in my neighborhood -- have dropped by about 50 cents/gallon.  In one month.

That was not the result of increased oil production.  That was the result of reduced demand.

No, I am not one who sees $4-a-gallon gas in the U.S. as a "problem" that needs to be "solved".  I recognize it as a long-term reality that's here to stay, whether we like it or not.

However, that said, why don't we hear more messages aimed at middle America pointing out that the current and anticipate reduction in petroleum consumption over the past few months has done more to reduce gas prices than a dozen ANWRs drilled tomorrow would do -- and has done it much, much, more rapidly.

This seems like a no-brainer: Cut U.S. gasoline demand by a couple of percent and you'll reap much greater benefits, economically, than you could hope to get by drilling ANWR like a madman.

Why is the corporate media not pointing this out?

Oh.  I guess I just answered my own question.

]]> Bringing gas prices down

Recently, the masses have been screaming more loudly than ever that we must bring gas prices down in the U.S. by just "drilling baby drilling" at the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge.

And they may be correct, if by "bringing gas prices down" you mean lowering the per-gallon price by maybe two or three cents in perhaps 10-15 years.

Now compare to that the fact that gasoline prices -- at least in my neighborhood -- have dropped by about 50 cents/gallon.  In one month.

That was not the result of increased oil production.  That was the result of reduced demand.

No, I am not one who sees $4-a-gallon gas in the U.S. as a "problem" that needs to be "solved".  I recognize it as a long-term reality that's here to stay, whether we like it or not.

However, that said, why don't we hear more messages aimed at middle America pointing out that the current and anticipate reduction in petroleum consumption over the past few months has done more to reduce gas prices than a dozen ANWRs drilled tomorrow would do -- and has done it much, much, more rapidly.

This seems like a no-brainer: Cut U.S. gasoline demand by a couple of percent and you'll reap much greater benefits, economically, than you could hope to get by drilling ANWR like a madman.

Why is the corporate media not pointing this out?

Oh.  I guess I just answered my own question.

]]> Comment #4 by stevenearlsalmony http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/ Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:59:13 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/4 Dear John Rynn................

Yes, definitely yes, to everything you are reporting.  Spread the word!

Steven Earl Salmony
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001

]]> Dear John Rynn................

Yes, definitely yes, to everything you are reporting.  Spread the word!

Steven Earl Salmony
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001

]]> Comment #5 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/ Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:54:59 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/5 There it is Jon

"The sooner we move toward economic democracy, the better, no?'

The pursuit of happiness is difficult without the possibility of financial security.  That possibility for financial security must be nurtured with free and fair markets.  

In order to maintain those fair and free markets a goverment of, by, and for we the people must regulate and enforce those regulations.

A formula for economic democracy.

What say you free marketeerian think tankers?  Still want to let the markets work, free of government interference?  Hehey.

Oh, I know you are waiting until the news cycle switches back to Biden's french cuffs.  Yep french cuffs.  

Relax, they are "freedom" cuffs.  What was that stuff about the economy again?  And how you all were wrong for the last 30 years?  Huh?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin


]]> There it is Jon

"The sooner we move toward economic democracy, the better, no?'

The pursuit of happiness is difficult without the possibility of financial security.  That possibility for financial security must be nurtured with free and fair markets.  

In order to maintain those fair and free markets a goverment of, by, and for we the people must regulate and enforce those regulations.

A formula for economic democracy.

What say you free marketeerian think tankers?  Still want to let the markets work, free of government interference?  Hehey.

Oh, I know you are waiting until the news cycle switches back to Biden's french cuffs.  Yep french cuffs.  

Relax, they are "freedom" cuffs.  What was that stuff about the economy again?  And how you all were wrong for the last 30 years?  Huh?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin


]]> Comment #6 by SMLowry http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/ Sat, 20 Sep 2008 09:45:16 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/6 Not living in reality

Just a while ago I was watching a CNN show on what's going on with the economy, etc. This isn't a normal thing for me but for some reason I was interested to see what these guys had to say. I have no idea who they were talking to, some pundit, some "expert", I have no idea but he's going on about how things will have to change (no shit), about how 25 year olds won't be able to wrack up $45,000 in credit card debt (???), then he went on to say that there will be an increase in blue collar jobs because of our extreme need for resources (suck it dry now!), people will be needed to work drilling for oil and driving those big trucks in the tar sands. And I'm thinking, what world do these people live in? What do they think the Earth is? These people do not live in reality at all, and that's pretty scary.

Today I went to the top of Cannon Mountain (Franconia Notch, NH) with my son, his partner, and my grandsons. It was a gorgeous day, we could see for miles, even into Vermont and Canada. But the "haze" was definitely there. This was not haze, but pollution. I reminded me of the "haze" one could see from any high point in Athens looking out to the horizon. Not as bad, but much more than I can remember seeing it. This, too, is scary.

The economy is a house of cards. I'm no expert but it seems to me that we should be taking all those billions of dollars and finding ways to rebuild it by restructuring things. "Fixing" the economy will only ensure that it "breaks" again. I'd just as soon get it over with now. What with energy issues and climate change, things need to change. We could "take advantage" of this crisis to transform things. Of course I know this won't happen any time soon. Too bad.

]]> Not living in reality

Just a while ago I was watching a CNN show on what's going on with the economy, etc. This isn't a normal thing for me but for some reason I was interested to see what these guys had to say. I have no idea who they were talking to, some pundit, some "expert", I have no idea but he's going on about how things will have to change (no shit), about how 25 year olds won't be able to wrack up $45,000 in credit card debt (???), then he went on to say that there will be an increase in blue collar jobs because of our extreme need for resources (suck it dry now!), people will be needed to work drilling for oil and driving those big trucks in the tar sands. And I'm thinking, what world do these people live in? What do they think the Earth is? These people do not live in reality at all, and that's pretty scary.

Today I went to the top of Cannon Mountain (Franconia Notch, NH) with my son, his partner, and my grandsons. It was a gorgeous day, we could see for miles, even into Vermont and Canada. But the "haze" was definitely there. This was not haze, but pollution. I reminded me of the "haze" one could see from any high point in Athens looking out to the horizon. Not as bad, but much more than I can remember seeing it. This, too, is scary.

The economy is a house of cards. I'm no expert but it seems to me that we should be taking all those billions of dollars and finding ways to rebuild it by restructuring things. "Fixing" the economy will only ensure that it "breaks" again. I'd just as soon get it over with now. What with energy issues and climate change, things need to change. We could "take advantage" of this crisis to transform things. Of course I know this won't happen any time soon. Too bad.

]]> Comment #7 by mreinbold http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/ Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:11:50 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/further-implications-of-the-financial-meltdown/7 I think

we should all just kill ourselves and get it over.

]]> I think

we should all just kill ourselves and get it over.

]]>