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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Forget about CO2 for a minute already]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by chris@organicmatter</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:00:14 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>not so fast</strong></p><p>In other words, if your concern is malaria, there are far more effective approaches to preparation and amelioration than reducing CO2 in the atmosphere. The same could be said of concerns about famine, dislocation, poverty, flooding, hurricanes, etc. etc. There are relatively cheap measures available that would drastically reduce the damage wrought by these phenomena -- and reducing CO2 just isn't one of them.</p><p>
Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but I've got two serious uncertainties about this approach (and no numbers to back them up, so take everything I say with a grain of salt):</p><p>
1.) I don't necessarily accept that there are "relatively cheap measures" for dealing with some of these issues. &nbsp;Specifically I'm thinking of famine and poverty. &nbsp;Both are easy to rally people around, and to get governments to donate respectable sums of money toward, and yet I would argue that we've failed to make a significant dent in either problem from a global perspective.</p><p>
2.) Even if we accept that there ARE cheap ways of dealing with all of the potential consequences of climate change, I'm not sure that we can extrapolate that dealing with <b>all</b> of them in the aggregate is cheaper than major GHG cutbacks.</p>
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				<p><strong>not so fast</strong></p><p>In other words, if your concern is malaria, there are far more effective approaches to preparation and amelioration than reducing CO2 in the atmosphere. The same could be said of concerns about famine, dislocation, poverty, flooding, hurricanes, etc. etc. There are relatively cheap measures available that would drastically reduce the damage wrought by these phenomena -- and reducing CO2 just isn't one of them.</p><p>
Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but I've got two serious uncertainties about this approach (and no numbers to back them up, so take everything I say with a grain of salt):</p><p>
1.) I don't necessarily accept that there are "relatively cheap measures" for dealing with some of these issues. &nbsp;Specifically I'm thinking of famine and poverty. &nbsp;Both are easy to rally people around, and to get governments to donate respectable sums of money toward, and yet I would argue that we've failed to make a significant dent in either problem from a global perspective.</p><p>
2.) Even if we accept that there ARE cheap ways of dealing with all of the potential consequences of climate change, I'm not sure that we can extrapolate that dealing with <b>all</b> of them in the aggregate is cheaper than major GHG cutbacks.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Kira</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 02 Mar 2005 22:12:36 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>What about the others?</strong></p><p>I've never particularly worried about the impact of climate change on human societies--other than famines, I guess, but even those tend to be more political than environmental. I've no doubt humans have the ability to develop new technologies to adapt to the changes. What worries me are the rest of the critters out there--plants and animals--who cannot migrate or evolve fast enough to get out of the way of melting glaciers, rising waters, warming temperatures, harsher storms, etc. </p>
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				<p><strong>What about the others?</strong></p><p>I've never particularly worried about the impact of climate change on human societies--other than famines, I guess, but even those tend to be more political than environmental. I've no doubt humans have the ability to develop new technologies to adapt to the changes. What worries me are the rest of the critters out there--plants and animals--who cannot migrate or evolve fast enough to get out of the way of melting glaciers, rising waters, warming temperatures, harsher storms, etc. </p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Aimee Christensen</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2005 05:58:17 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Forget about CO2???<p>I am afraid that this piece may have missed a key issue: a mandatory cap on CO2 emissions automatically puts a price on carbon, thereby increasing the cost of polluting and making cleaner energy technologies more competitive. &nbsp;Indeed, on the international market under Kyoto, the sale of 'emission reduction credits' for each ton of CO2 (or its equivalent in the other five greenhouse gases) enables renewable energy projects and projects that reduce industrial emissions of greenhouse gases to go forward - as well as landfill methane capture/power projects. &nbsp;It increases the rate of return of cleaner energy projects, making them more cost-effective for investors.<p>
At a recent American Council on Renewable Energy conference in December (check them out at <a href="http://www.acore.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.acore.org), I was surprised by what appeared to be a strong sentiment that a cap on CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions was the best way to get renewables into the marketplace. &nbsp;People also advocated for national renewable portfolio standards (that require a certain percentage of renewables in the electricity mix) as well as production tax credits, but I was surprised how much a cap and trade programs were mentioned.<p>
So when 'greens' or enviros in the advocacy community argue for addressing global warming, particularly for the McCain Lieberman cap and trade bill, it's about getting cleaner technologies into the market. &nbsp;So we really get down to a conversation of language - and I think that is a critical issue, and raises the controversial head of the "Death of Environmentalism" paper advocating for an Apollo Alliance approach (<a href="http://www.apolloalliance.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.apolloalliance.org). &nbsp;I love Apollo's work partnering enviros and labor, so am all for it, but pushing for a cap and trade program is one tool to get us to a clean energy future with great new jobs. &nbsp;It is, unfortunately, a tech-y way to talk about an exciting new future - 'let's pass a cap and trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions' - I admit.<p>
But as I said to Senator Hagel when I asked him about his advocacy for markets and more consumer education and why he wouldn't therefore support a mandatory cap and trade approach, that cap and trade approach puts a price on pollution, and price is after all is the fastest educator of consumers and it lets the market pick the technology winners and losers!<br>


<p>Ever hopeful!</p></br></p></a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Forget about CO2???<p>I am afraid that this piece may have missed a key issue: a mandatory cap on CO2 emissions automatically puts a price on carbon, thereby increasing the cost of polluting and making cleaner energy technologies more competitive. &nbsp;Indeed, on the international market under Kyoto, the sale of 'emission reduction credits' for each ton of CO2 (or its equivalent in the other five greenhouse gases) enables renewable energy projects and projects that reduce industrial emissions of greenhouse gases to go forward - as well as landfill methane capture/power projects. &nbsp;It increases the rate of return of cleaner energy projects, making them more cost-effective for investors.<p>
At a recent American Council on Renewable Energy conference in December (check them out at <a href="http://www.acore.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.acore.org), I was surprised by what appeared to be a strong sentiment that a cap on CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions was the best way to get renewables into the marketplace. &nbsp;People also advocated for national renewable portfolio standards (that require a certain percentage of renewables in the electricity mix) as well as production tax credits, but I was surprised how much a cap and trade programs were mentioned.<p>
So when 'greens' or enviros in the advocacy community argue for addressing global warming, particularly for the McCain Lieberman cap and trade bill, it's about getting cleaner technologies into the market. &nbsp;So we really get down to a conversation of language - and I think that is a critical issue, and raises the controversial head of the "Death of Environmentalism" paper advocating for an Apollo Alliance approach (<a href="http://www.apolloalliance.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.apolloalliance.org). &nbsp;I love Apollo's work partnering enviros and labor, so am all for it, but pushing for a cap and trade program is one tool to get us to a clean energy future with great new jobs. &nbsp;It is, unfortunately, a tech-y way to talk about an exciting new future - 'let's pass a cap and trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions' - I admit.<p>
But as I said to Senator Hagel when I asked him about his advocacy for markets and more consumer education and why he wouldn't therefore support a mandatory cap and trade approach, that cap and trade approach puts a price on pollution, and price is after all is the fastest educator of consumers and it lets the market pick the technology winners and losers!<br>


<p>Ever hopeful!</p></br></p></a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by edarnold41</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2005 06:36:50 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Ignoring the Elephant...</strong></p><p>I too must claim ignorance of the full content of 'Bringing Society back into the Climate Debate', but from the quotes and article commentary, I suspect that the elephant in the living room is once again studiously ignored. Famine, pollution, destruction of the environment, and most of the other issues concerning environmentalists have one root cause: too many people. Every biosphere has a carrying capacity for the resident species, and the human species has gone way beyond that capacity, and continues to add to the burden at a monstrous rate. <br>
The tremendous costs quoted for natural disasters such as the recent tsunami is not because such events have not happened before, but because the population that was there to be affected was two or three times greater than just a few decades previous. Read up on the rate of population growth in the Third World, and it becomes glaringly obvious why attempts to stamp out famine and epidemic diseases must always fail: solving the food shortage and improving health immediately lead to greater reproduction, starting another boom and bust cycle.<br>
Pogo had it right: "We have met the enemy, and they are us...". Until population control becomes Job One, all the well intentioned fixes of one factor or another are just going to be futile BandAids on a growing cancer.</br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Ignoring the Elephant...</strong></p><p>I too must claim ignorance of the full content of 'Bringing Society back into the Climate Debate', but from the quotes and article commentary, I suspect that the elephant in the living room is once again studiously ignored. Famine, pollution, destruction of the environment, and most of the other issues concerning environmentalists have one root cause: too many people. Every biosphere has a carrying capacity for the resident species, and the human species has gone way beyond that capacity, and continues to add to the burden at a monstrous rate. <br>
The tremendous costs quoted for natural disasters such as the recent tsunami is not because such events have not happened before, but because the population that was there to be affected was two or three times greater than just a few decades previous. Read up on the rate of population growth in the Third World, and it becomes glaringly obvious why attempts to stamp out famine and epidemic diseases must always fail: solving the food shortage and improving health immediately lead to greater reproduction, starting another boom and bust cycle.<br>
Pogo had it right: "We have met the enemy, and they are us...". Until population control becomes Job One, all the well intentioned fixes of one factor or another are just going to be futile BandAids on a growing cancer.</br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by David Roberts</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:32:12 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Aimee,</strong></p><p>I don't disagree with anything you say. I think a cap and trade program's a fine idea (though of course the devil is always in the details) for pushing the development of renewable energy technologies.</p><p>
Perhaps my headline was poorly chosen. &nbsp;I'm not saying that we should disregard CO2, or abandon efforts to reduce emissions.</p><p>
What I'm saying -- or rather, agreeing with the paper about -- is that in selling CO2 reductions, saying that they will reduce climate's impacts on society is not the way to go. There are other, faster, cheaper ways to reduce those impacts. We should be pushing for CO2 caps, but not at the expense of supporting other social policy that could have faster results, and not while overpromising about the results.

<p>www.grist.org</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Aimee,</strong></p><p>I don't disagree with anything you say. I think a cap and trade program's a fine idea (though of course the devil is always in the details) for pushing the development of renewable energy technologies.</p><p>
Perhaps my headline was poorly chosen. &nbsp;I'm not saying that we should disregard CO2, or abandon efforts to reduce emissions.</p><p>
What I'm saying -- or rather, agreeing with the paper about -- is that in selling CO2 reductions, saying that they will reduce climate's impacts on society is not the way to go. There are other, faster, cheaper ways to reduce those impacts. We should be pushing for CO2 caps, but not at the expense of supporting other social policy that could have faster results, and not while overpromising about the results.

<p>www.grist.org</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by chris@organicmatter</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2005 11:34:57 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Thanks for clarifying<p>We should be pushing for CO2 caps, but not at the expense of supporting other social policy that could have faster results, and not while overpromising about the results.<p>
Now this is a statement that I can stand behind. &nbsp;You'll never catch me saying that reducing GHG emissions (and that's all major GHGs, not just carbon dioxide) isn't essential, but neither is reducing emissions a silver bullet that will solve every climate related problem. &nbsp;Especially since we've already pumped enough extra GHGs into the atmosphere that we're <strong><a href="http://www.organicmatter.net/node/3" rel="nofollow">guaranteed to see an increase in global mean temperature, even if we were to cut GHG emissions by 50% effective tomorrow.

<p><a href="http://www.organicmatter.net" rel="nofollow">Organic Matter: Blogging the environment</a></p></a></strong></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Thanks for clarifying<p>We should be pushing for CO2 caps, but not at the expense of supporting other social policy that could have faster results, and not while overpromising about the results.<p>
Now this is a statement that I can stand behind. &nbsp;You'll never catch me saying that reducing GHG emissions (and that's all major GHGs, not just carbon dioxide) isn't essential, but neither is reducing emissions a silver bullet that will solve every climate related problem. &nbsp;Especially since we've already pumped enough extra GHGs into the atmosphere that we're <strong><a href="http://www.organicmatter.net/node/3" rel="nofollow">guaranteed to see an increase in global mean temperature, even if we were to cut GHG emissions by 50% effective tomorrow.

<p><a href="http://www.organicmatter.net" rel="nofollow">Organic Matter: Blogging the environment</a></p></a></strong></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by jdhlax</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 Mar 2005 15:53:19 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/forget-about-co2-for-a-minute-already/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Root Of The Problem</strong></p><p>This string points out the problem with concerning oneself with the symptom of global warming instead of the cause of the problem, which is industrial society's immoral pollution of OUR atmosphere. &nbsp;We should advocate that all pollution is immoral and that no one should ever be allowed to discharge any pollutants into OUR air, water, or land. Who would be willing to drive a car whose exhaust pipe ended in the passenger compartment?</p>
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				<p><strong>Root Of The Problem</strong></p><p>This string points out the problem with concerning oneself with the symptom of global warming instead of the cause of the problem, which is industrial society's immoral pollution of OUR atmosphere. &nbsp;We should advocate that all pollution is immoral and that no one should ever be allowed to discharge any pollutants into OUR air, water, or land. Who would be willing to drive a car whose exhaust pipe ended in the passenger compartment?</p>
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