How are you connecting coal and cellulosic ethanol?

Oh, thats actually rather easy.
http://greyfalcon.net/coskata
http://greyfalcon.net/biolimits.png
http://greyfalcon.net/fossilenergy.png

Also, for bonus points, you might want to check these out.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/R-squared/~3/367327701/cos ...
http://greyfalcon.net/algae4

-David Ahlport

And while we're talking about the concept of "Don't worry, the waste will handle it".

I'd answer, "What Waste?"

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2008/7/16/112158/855
http://greyfalcon.net/peaksoil.pdf
http://www.stopbp-berkeley.org/CellulosicBiofuels.pdf

-David Ahlport

http://www.doe.gov/news/6337.htm

"U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) Assistant Secretary of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Andy Karsner today announced up to $30 million in funding over three years for three cost-shared Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEVs) demonstration and development projects. The selected projects will accelerate the development of PHEVs capable of traveling up to 40 miles without recharging, which includes most daily roundtrip commutes and satisfies 70 percent of the average daily travel in the U. S."

This is a better way to spend money.  I believe the average daily trip length is 21 miles though.  Making this figure of 40 miles saving 70% somewhat hard to understand.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

We can only wonder how long it will be before car companies and governments accept that hydrogen is a pipe dream and move on to more promising technologies like battery-powered electric vehicles.

a sibilant intake of breath

We can only wonder how long it will be before car companies and governments accept that hydrogen is a pipe dream  ...

I believe it's about minus-seven years for the latter. The car companies just go along with the charade. They don't get the gasoline revenue.

--- G.R.L. Cowan, H2 energy fan 'til ~1996

Meanwhile...

http://newenergyfocus.com/do/ecco.py/view_item?listid=1&a ...=

The new Environmental Energy Technology Centre (EETC) between Rotherham and Sheffield should see all its power provided by a 225kW turbine.

And, even when the wind does not blow, the turbine should be able to provide the building's power needs through a hydrogen fuel cell system.

The system will generate hydrogen from excess power from the wind turbine through an electrolyser, which can then turned back into electricity by the fuel cell during periods of low wind speed.

If Woody Guthrie were alive today, he'd be roaming the country, warbling about the glories of hydrogen....

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/hydrogenics-supply- ...

Hydrogenics, a leading designer and manufacturer of hydrogen electrolyzers and fuel cell systems, has been selected by Powertech Labs, a wholly-owned subsidiary of BC Hydro, to provide an electrolyzer for a community hydro-hydrogen-diesel system serving the community of Bella Coola, British Columbia.

...

"Hydrogen provides an ideal energy storage solution," said Daryl Wilson, President and CEO of Hydrogenics. "We believe that hydrogen will play a critical role in capturing the power of renewable resources and creating viable energy systems that are cost effective, sustainable and environmentally friendly," says Wilson. Batteries are often used to store excess energy; however, batteries incur significant energy loss over time and are relatively expensive options for large scale energy storage. By comparison, stored hydrogen does not dissipate energy over time and the cost of storage is relatively low. "Hydrogen storage is highly scalable and ideal for storing large amounts of energy for long periods of time," Wilson added. This is particularly significant at Bella Coola where the intermittency of the run-of-the-river system will require long-term storage, where hydrogen significantly outperforms batteries. In addition, hydrogen is multi-use and can be used to fuel vehicles and other industrial equipment.

Bob Rose (executive director of the U.S. Fuel Cell Council) has written a great rebuttal to Romm's piece - check it out at www.fuelcellinsider.org.

It is a shame that many people continue to have such pessimistic and ill-informed point of view about hydrogen.  The truth is that hydrogen will be a critical part of our nation's sustainable and clean energy future.  In fact, even though hydrogen doesn't get the attention it deserves today, people should know that many hydrogen technologies are already available and used widely today.  

Although many focus on the automotive industry's progress developing hydrogen technologies, that's just the tip of the iceberg.  Consider:  both Motorola and Samsung are developing hydrogen-powered cellular phones to be released in 2010.   And, the cellular phone industry has already deployed approximately 200 hydrogen back-up power units, which are tied to cell phone towers in the event of a power outage.  That means the next cell phone call you make could be powered by hydrogen.  

In addition, today's businesses  are starting to add hydrogen injection systems on their trucks, bypassing the need for a fueling infrastructure all together, thereby lowering operational fuel costs.   And, quite logically, this is making the products we purchase more environmentally-friendly.  And, let's not forget that fuel cell forklifts are currently being used by companies such as Wal-Mart and Bridgestone/Firestone to transport goods in warehouses.  It was a commitment to research and investment that made each of these technologies possible.

Over the last several decades, we have witnessed different kinds of technologies evolve and impact our lives in ways we couldn't have completely imagined.  Everything from cell phones to computers to televisions have evolved and improved in speed, reception, size and their range of capabilities.  These advancements in technology became possible through research.  The same is true for hydrogen technologies today.  Researchers will continue to explore, improve and diversify how hydrogen can impact our lives.

Here are few stories that highlight some of the recent progress that has been made throughout the hydrogen industry:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/06/3m-fuel-cell-me.h ...
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/06/toyota-fuel-cell- ...
http://www.smartpower.org/blog/?p=422

As a representative of the National Hydrogen Association, I am helping people understand that hydrogen is a universal fuel that can be used to store energy and power everything from cars, to laptops, to heating systems for your car.  It can be produced from any resource, including many that produce no emissions whatsoever other than water, including solar, wind, and nuclear.  

I love it. In addition to the biofuel, nuclear, and clean coal enthusiasts begging from the public larder we got the hydrogen enthusiasts.

Let me guess. Part of your job description is to surf the net looking for opportunities to plug hydrogen? I have a friend who has a job like that, except he plugs a different product.

We are not Luddites here, or at least most of us.

Of course hydrogen has many uses and always will. The criticism has been about the over hyping of hydrogen. Government funded research is good stuff but occasionally lobbyists, from whatever industries, manage to convince politicians to move from funding research to throwing tax payer money into the pockets of players, like the hydrogen or biofuels industry, to move beyond the lab, building full scale refineries, or hydrogen fueling stations when doing so isn't justified by the technology or market.

Tanks of gaseous hydrogen sitting ready to fire up a fuel cell at remote cell towers in the event of a power outage sound like a good application, and best of all, no government subsidization needed.

One can see how this concept might be expanded as a giant battery to assist wind and solar.

Fork lifts are often electric to avoid putting fumes into work spaces. Cost issues aside, one can see how fuel cells might be feasible inside a warehouse where you can swap out your gas tank as often as needed through the day. Again, if it makes sense, a company will use them, no government subsidy needed.

But the hydrogen industry just wants to make big bucks, any way they can, like most other industries and if they can enhance those profits by convincing the government to hand them money, they will do so. That's one problem.

Powering cars would be a real cash cow. How all that hydrogen would be produced, liquefied, moved and stored is the other problem, for taxpayers, a godsend to the hydrogen industry.

You can't escape the laws of physics. Hydrogen, even liquid hydrogen, takes up a lot of space. That car you mentioned has a storage tank four times bigger than a gas car. The tanks are also ultra high pressure and expensive, as opposed to a simple welded steel tank.

In addition, today's businesses  are starting to add hydrogen injection systems on their trucks, bypassing the need for a fueling infrastructure all together, thereby lowering operational fuel costs. And, quite logically, this is making the products we purchase more environmentally-friendly.

You might want to drop the above from your spiel. Hydrogen injection systems are a scam.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/04/why-on-board-hydr ...

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world