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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Shellenberger &amp; Nordhaus echo flawed economic assumptions]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 05:41:33 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Sean....<p>Economists go out of there way to say that they cannot predict the future with a high degree of certainty, but that they can have some pretty well-educated ideas about how changes in incentives will lead people to act, and hence how things may play out. <p>
That being said, a few questions back at you:<p>


Are there other disciplines that you think are better at predicting the future than economics? And even on a macro scale?<p>
Do you think economics has any predictive power that we should rely on?<p>
If economics is just a descriptive science with little predictive power, than what would you suggest we use to make informed decisions about current environmental problems? Psychologists? Philosophers? Obviously, this doesn't have to be an either or but what other disciplines in the social sciences do you think should have a more prominent rule in actually crafting the policy details?<p>
Finally, who would you prefer to manage the Central Bank, Ben Bernanke, or someone without a PhD and serious expertise in economics? If your answer is Bernanke, is it because you think he has a crystal ball?<p>


Thanks

<p>I teach environmental economics and blog at <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Sean....<p>Economists go out of there way to say that they cannot predict the future with a high degree of certainty, but that they can have some pretty well-educated ideas about how changes in incentives will lead people to act, and hence how things may play out. <p>
That being said, a few questions back at you:<p>


Are there other disciplines that you think are better at predicting the future than economics? And even on a macro scale?<p>
Do you think economics has any predictive power that we should rely on?<p>
If economics is just a descriptive science with little predictive power, than what would you suggest we use to make informed decisions about current environmental problems? Psychologists? Philosophers? Obviously, this doesn't have to be an either or but what other disciplines in the social sciences do you think should have a more prominent rule in actually crafting the policy details?<p>
Finally, who would you prefer to manage the Central Bank, Ben Bernanke, or someone without a PhD and serious expertise in economics? If your answer is Bernanke, is it because you think he has a crystal ball?<p>


Thanks

<p>I teach environmental economics and blog at <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Aklemm</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:41:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>McDonough frames it well</strong></p><p>"Growth, No Growth is a specious argument. &nbsp;The real question is what do we want to grow."</p><p>
The whole point is that no one can predict the future. &nbsp;The best near term subsitute to a crystal ball is crafting public policy with near and long term feedback loops that constantly inform and allow policies to be adjusted to achieve desired end states.</p>
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				<p><strong>McDonough frames it well</strong></p><p>"Growth, No Growth is a specious argument. &nbsp;The real question is what do we want to grow."</p><p>
The whole point is that no one can predict the future. &nbsp;The best near term subsitute to a crystal ball is crafting public policy with near and long term feedback loops that constantly inform and allow policies to be adjusted to achieve desired end states.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:02:29 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Jason</strong></p><p>I'm not whether we disagree or not, but while the economists may caveat what they say, policies based on economist's advise do not. &nbsp;(And if you'll allow me to generalize, economists that advise policymakers are particularly bad at admitting their fallibility.) &nbsp;Thus, we get policy made as if "best guesses" were absolutes - and even when their are error bars around those best guesses, we still assume that those error bars fully bound all possible futures. &nbsp;</p><p>
Answers to your questions.</p><p>


No, but that's a pretty low bar. &nbsp;The world is rife with examples of how bad economically-literate people are at predicting market changes, from random stock pickers that beat mutual fund managers to forward price forecasts on fuel prices that are extrapolated off linear trends and are wildly inaccurate. &nbsp;So yeah, it's the best tool available, but it is really dangerous to make policy predictions with an assumption that it's got much accuracy to it.</p><p>
Qualitatively, yes. &nbsp;Quantiatively, no. &nbsp;Do interest rates prime the economy? &nbsp; Absolutely. &nbsp;Are supply and demand related through price? &nbsp;Absolutely. &nbsp;But saying that a 0.5% rate cut will grow GDP by a known percent, or that a $1 increase in gasoline price will lower demand by a known percent is almost pure speculation. &nbsp;This is why I said that economics is very good at explaining what happened - but not so good at explaining what will happen. &nbsp;(For example, an economist would argue - quite rightly - that the last decade has proven that gasoline demand curves are highly inelastic. &nbsp;This is true, and interesting - but largely inconsistent with the vast majority of economic forecasts prior to 2000 which assured us &nbsp;in one way or the other than $70/bbl oil would cripple the US economy.) &nbsp;This is good so far as it goes, but is a shaky foundation upon which to build a discipline, unless the discipline is willing to admit and seek to address it's limitations. &nbsp;After all, given perfect knowledge of the future (as all backwards predictions have), I can make astrology look like a scientifically valid discipline. &nbsp;I'm not suggesting that economics isn't a lot more rigorous than astrology, but just going back to my first point that this is a pretty low bar.</p><p>
Great question, and I'm honestly not sure. &nbsp;But I go back to the policy point. &nbsp;One can make the broad observation that we choose from an impoverished option bag (a psycological point) and that virtually all policies that were anticipated to be economically disastrous (think SOx trading, the first generation of CAFE, etc.) have actually had way lower costs than we forecast, in large part because of that impoverished option bag. &nbsp;And if one makes that point, one quickly would conclude that the future is much less knowable than economics would have us believe. &nbsp;And yet we don't. &nbsp;We get the S&amp;Ns of the world assuring us that carbon will have to get to $100/ton because their bag doesn't include stuff that works for less... and policy makers act on that information. So maybe my answer is not that there is a better tool, but that the tool needs to be presented with a lot more humility.</p><p>
I think a PHD is overrated, but I get your question. &nbsp;: ) &nbsp;Again, there are important economic tools out there, and we clearly need people making major economics decisions in this country to be familiar with those tools. &nbsp;But as anyone who's ever built an econometric model knows, (a) you can never build enough complexity into a model to represent all the things that will actually affect your forecast and (b) complex systems behave in unpredictable ways. &nbsp;And so we make massive simplifying assumptions. &nbsp;Capital is efficiently allocated, all market participants are rational, people knowingly maximize their utility function... &nbsp;We don't build these assumptions in because they're true, but rather because if we don't, then we can't apply any mathematical models. &nbsp;And so what I really want out of our Fed chief is not a fancy degree, but the gut level experience to look at a model and say "your math is right, but your answer is crazy." &nbsp;And the ability to do that ultimately comes from experience - and it's not very mathematical when it's done really well.</p><p>


One last point, to illustrate my larger beef. &nbsp;At any given time, the Congress has numerous policies to consider, all of which have a "score" based on their net fiscal cost. &nbsp;Decisions are made between competing provisions based on that score. &nbsp;And the score is based only on the net impact on tax revenues. &nbsp;So let's say we want to pass a tax break for some clean technology. &nbsp;You and I may be quite confident that this industry is poised for explosive growth, would create a ton of jobs and lower the cost of power. &nbsp;None of that matters for the scoring - just the tax impact. &nbsp;The economists at the Congressional Budget Office put very precise, very accurate forecasts together on the costs, but put none into the benefits. &nbsp;And so we make policy with one hand clapping. &nbsp;And clapping wrong, since even the option bag they have is impoverished.</p>
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				<p><strong>Jason</strong></p><p>I'm not whether we disagree or not, but while the economists may caveat what they say, policies based on economist's advise do not. &nbsp;(And if you'll allow me to generalize, economists that advise policymakers are particularly bad at admitting their fallibility.) &nbsp;Thus, we get policy made as if "best guesses" were absolutes - and even when their are error bars around those best guesses, we still assume that those error bars fully bound all possible futures. &nbsp;</p><p>
Answers to your questions.</p><p>


No, but that's a pretty low bar. &nbsp;The world is rife with examples of how bad economically-literate people are at predicting market changes, from random stock pickers that beat mutual fund managers to forward price forecasts on fuel prices that are extrapolated off linear trends and are wildly inaccurate. &nbsp;So yeah, it's the best tool available, but it is really dangerous to make policy predictions with an assumption that it's got much accuracy to it.</p><p>
Qualitatively, yes. &nbsp;Quantiatively, no. &nbsp;Do interest rates prime the economy? &nbsp; Absolutely. &nbsp;Are supply and demand related through price? &nbsp;Absolutely. &nbsp;But saying that a 0.5% rate cut will grow GDP by a known percent, or that a $1 increase in gasoline price will lower demand by a known percent is almost pure speculation. &nbsp;This is why I said that economics is very good at explaining what happened - but not so good at explaining what will happen. &nbsp;(For example, an economist would argue - quite rightly - that the last decade has proven that gasoline demand curves are highly inelastic. &nbsp;This is true, and interesting - but largely inconsistent with the vast majority of economic forecasts prior to 2000 which assured us &nbsp;in one way or the other than $70/bbl oil would cripple the US economy.) &nbsp;This is good so far as it goes, but is a shaky foundation upon which to build a discipline, unless the discipline is willing to admit and seek to address it's limitations. &nbsp;After all, given perfect knowledge of the future (as all backwards predictions have), I can make astrology look like a scientifically valid discipline. &nbsp;I'm not suggesting that economics isn't a lot more rigorous than astrology, but just going back to my first point that this is a pretty low bar.</p><p>
Great question, and I'm honestly not sure. &nbsp;But I go back to the policy point. &nbsp;One can make the broad observation that we choose from an impoverished option bag (a psycological point) and that virtually all policies that were anticipated to be economically disastrous (think SOx trading, the first generation of CAFE, etc.) have actually had way lower costs than we forecast, in large part because of that impoverished option bag. &nbsp;And if one makes that point, one quickly would conclude that the future is much less knowable than economics would have us believe. &nbsp;And yet we don't. &nbsp;We get the S&amp;Ns of the world assuring us that carbon will have to get to $100/ton because their bag doesn't include stuff that works for less... and policy makers act on that information. So maybe my answer is not that there is a better tool, but that the tool needs to be presented with a lot more humility.</p><p>
I think a PHD is overrated, but I get your question. &nbsp;: ) &nbsp;Again, there are important economic tools out there, and we clearly need people making major economics decisions in this country to be familiar with those tools. &nbsp;But as anyone who's ever built an econometric model knows, (a) you can never build enough complexity into a model to represent all the things that will actually affect your forecast and (b) complex systems behave in unpredictable ways. &nbsp;And so we make massive simplifying assumptions. &nbsp;Capital is efficiently allocated, all market participants are rational, people knowingly maximize their utility function... &nbsp;We don't build these assumptions in because they're true, but rather because if we don't, then we can't apply any mathematical models. &nbsp;And so what I really want out of our Fed chief is not a fancy degree, but the gut level experience to look at a model and say "your math is right, but your answer is crazy." &nbsp;And the ability to do that ultimately comes from experience - and it's not very mathematical when it's done really well.</p><p>


One last point, to illustrate my larger beef. &nbsp;At any given time, the Congress has numerous policies to consider, all of which have a "score" based on their net fiscal cost. &nbsp;Decisions are made between competing provisions based on that score. &nbsp;And the score is based only on the net impact on tax revenues. &nbsp;So let's say we want to pass a tax break for some clean technology. &nbsp;You and I may be quite confident that this industry is poised for explosive growth, would create a ton of jobs and lower the cost of power. &nbsp;None of that matters for the scoring - just the tax impact. &nbsp;The economists at the Congressional Budget Office put very precise, very accurate forecasts together on the costs, but put none into the benefits. &nbsp;And so we make policy with one hand clapping. &nbsp;And clapping wrong, since even the option bag they have is impoverished.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by mkayser</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:43:56 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Agree partly</strong></p><p>Your points about the need for humility in economics are well taken. But economists aren't incentivized to be humble. Humble predictions aren't as clear, and policymakers like clear answers. That's where much of the problem is. Another is that people don't like to think in probability distributions. They like to focus on "the scenario that will happen," even when we don't know what that is. </p><p>
There are mathematical ways to account for uncertainty. We could put some "give" in our cap-and-trade schedule. I expect this often doesn't happen because it's too complicated for the policymaker.</p><p>
I'm appreciative of your helpful counterbalancing arguments in favor of experience-driven intuition over fancy math. But there are computers right now that basically run hedge funds, and some of them make a ton of money. That's just straight up math. Often using ridiculously unrealistic models of stock pricing, I might add.</p><p>
The two schools of thought should continue to have a healthy tension. Humility on both sides is warranted. Your post is well taken.</p>
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				<p><strong>Agree partly</strong></p><p>Your points about the need for humility in economics are well taken. But economists aren't incentivized to be humble. Humble predictions aren't as clear, and policymakers like clear answers. That's where much of the problem is. Another is that people don't like to think in probability distributions. They like to focus on "the scenario that will happen," even when we don't know what that is. </p><p>
There are mathematical ways to account for uncertainty. We could put some "give" in our cap-and-trade schedule. I expect this often doesn't happen because it's too complicated for the policymaker.</p><p>
I'm appreciative of your helpful counterbalancing arguments in favor of experience-driven intuition over fancy math. But there are computers right now that basically run hedge funds, and some of them make a ton of money. That's just straight up math. Often using ridiculously unrealistic models of stock pricing, I might add.</p><p>
The two schools of thought should continue to have a healthy tension. Humility on both sides is warranted. Your post is well taken.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by mkayser</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:49:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Lot of speculation in the above post</strong></p><p>I speculated in two places, so don't take my word for it that:</p><p>


Policymakers really like clear answers and can't handle complexity. I don't deal with policymakers, I'm just stereotyping.<br>
Cap-and-trade policies etc. really are based on "first-best-guess" as opposed to a "smeared guess" that gives rise to many possible paths depending on what happens. I don't work on policy so I don't know these details, I'm just assuming.

</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Lot of speculation in the above post</strong></p><p>I speculated in two places, so don't take my word for it that:</p><p>


Policymakers really like clear answers and can't handle complexity. I don't deal with policymakers, I'm just stereotyping.<br>
Cap-and-trade policies etc. really are based on "first-best-guess" as opposed to a "smeared guess" that gives rise to many possible paths depending on what happens. I don't work on policy so I don't know these details, I'm just assuming.

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            <title>Comment #6 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:53:47 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/fascinating-but-for-the-wrong-reasons/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Sean- thanks for the responses...<p>they seem reasonable to me. The point of the questions was to illustrate that in an imperfect, uncertain, and crazy world economic analysis is sometime the best tool we have, but like you say the bar is low.<p>
Also, I agree that economists' point estimates should be taken with a grain of salt. We can't know virtually any future economic activity down to the dollar. But we can predict reasonable ranges and orders of magnitude, and I would argue that this is crucial and very useful. Economists might not be able to tell you exactly how much gas consumption will go down if we had a $1 a gallon gas tax, but they can present a reasonable range that is probably pretty accurate. I'll take that. And I wouldn't trust anybody else's guess that's for sure.<p>
My point about Bernanke- who I think is doing an amazing job- is that just because he doesn't have a crystal ball doesn't mean that he doesn't have a very good sense of trying balance these very complicated forces that have such huge implications for us all. Maybe a PhD in economics is overrated, but not expertise in economics. We have people like Bernanke at the helm because this stuff is serious serious business and we want people with a profound understanding of economic forces to set things like interest rates. If Bernanke's salary was $100 million it would be a bargain. <p>
Anyway, as to economists not being humble or admitting their imperfections, I don't know. I see a lot of hubris and arrogance in just about every profession, especially throughout the humanities and the rest of the social sciences. And a lot of it is spewed by people who don't have a clue about economics. But anyway, that's a secondary issue.<p>
Thanks again.

<p>I teach environmental economics and blog at <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Sean- thanks for the responses...<p>they seem reasonable to me. The point of the questions was to illustrate that in an imperfect, uncertain, and crazy world economic analysis is sometime the best tool we have, but like you say the bar is low.<p>
Also, I agree that economists' point estimates should be taken with a grain of salt. We can't know virtually any future economic activity down to the dollar. But we can predict reasonable ranges and orders of magnitude, and I would argue that this is crucial and very useful. Economists might not be able to tell you exactly how much gas consumption will go down if we had a $1 a gallon gas tax, but they can present a reasonable range that is probably pretty accurate. I'll take that. And I wouldn't trust anybody else's guess that's for sure.<p>
My point about Bernanke- who I think is doing an amazing job- is that just because he doesn't have a crystal ball doesn't mean that he doesn't have a very good sense of trying balance these very complicated forces that have such huge implications for us all. Maybe a PhD in economics is overrated, but not expertise in economics. We have people like Bernanke at the helm because this stuff is serious serious business and we want people with a profound understanding of economic forces to set things like interest rates. If Bernanke's salary was $100 million it would be a bargain. <p>
Anyway, as to economists not being humble or admitting their imperfections, I don't know. I see a lot of hubris and arrogance in just about every profession, especially throughout the humanities and the rest of the social sciences. And a lot of it is spewed by people who don't have a clue about economics. But anyway, that's a secondary issue.<p>
Thanks again.

<p>I teach environmental economics and blog at <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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