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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for The shining promise of ethanol doesn&#8217;t add up for farmers]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ethanol3/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:58:29 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>I largely agree...</strong></p><p>except the key to farmers' woes is the absurd subsidy system that needs to be abolished since it only benefits big farms and is corporate welfare. Diversification and producing for local production can be profitable for many, and this should be pursued instead of protectionism- like I tell farmers- convince people why they should pay more for your food instead of trying to block imports.</p><p>
J.S.</p>
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				<p><strong>I largely agree...</strong></p><p>except the key to farmers' woes is the absurd subsidy system that needs to be abolished since it only benefits big farms and is corporate welfare. Diversification and producing for local production can be profitable for many, and this should be pursued instead of protectionism- like I tell farmers- convince people why they should pay more for your food instead of trying to block imports.</p><p>
J.S.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by wiscidea</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ethanol3/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:29:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ethanol3/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Moving From Industrial Inputs To Food</strong></p><p>I agree that grain ethanol production is not a solution to the problem. This MIGHT be overcome by conversion of biomass to fuel, but I can't comment on this.</p><p>
Subsidies are probably part of the problem. I propose capping subsidies when farm net income reaches are certain level. What would this level be? I don't know.</p><p>
But I have to disagree with the concluding statement...</p><p>
"... rather than pursue the environmentally and economically suspect ethanol dream, I have an idea that might sound crazy at first: Stop producing mass quantities of industrial inputs like genetically modified field corn, and start producing food for neighbors to eat..."</p><p>
We already have a surplus of food in this country. That is why prices for farm products are so low. You might respond by saying we could ship that food to other countries, but someone would have to pay for it. (It would also demand increasing fossil fuel use to ship and distrubute.) We try to give it away, but it ends up in the hands of local thugs and does not get to the people who need it. Or, perhaps worse, a flood of cheap food from America depresses local prices and destroys local agriculture. I believe this sort of thing was largely responsible for a depression in Europe in the late 1800s. American wheat poured into Europe and pulled the rug out from under small family farmers.</p><p>
American farmers actually need help finding ways to grow MORE industrial inputs, especially products that can replace petroleum as a feedstock. We use oil for more than moving people around.</p><p>
As George Washington Carver stated...</p><p>
"I believe the Creator has put<br>
ores and oil on this earth<br>
to give us a breathing spell.<br>
As we exhaust them,<br>
we must be prepared to fall back on our farms,<br>
which is God's true storehouse<br>
and can never be exhausted.<br>
For we can learn to synthesize materials<br>
for every human need from the things that grow."<br>
</br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Moving From Industrial Inputs To Food</strong></p><p>I agree that grain ethanol production is not a solution to the problem. This MIGHT be overcome by conversion of biomass to fuel, but I can't comment on this.</p><p>
Subsidies are probably part of the problem. I propose capping subsidies when farm net income reaches are certain level. What would this level be? I don't know.</p><p>
But I have to disagree with the concluding statement...</p><p>
"... rather than pursue the environmentally and economically suspect ethanol dream, I have an idea that might sound crazy at first: Stop producing mass quantities of industrial inputs like genetically modified field corn, and start producing food for neighbors to eat..."</p><p>
We already have a surplus of food in this country. That is why prices for farm products are so low. You might respond by saying we could ship that food to other countries, but someone would have to pay for it. (It would also demand increasing fossil fuel use to ship and distrubute.) We try to give it away, but it ends up in the hands of local thugs and does not get to the people who need it. Or, perhaps worse, a flood of cheap food from America depresses local prices and destroys local agriculture. I believe this sort of thing was largely responsible for a depression in Europe in the late 1800s. American wheat poured into Europe and pulled the rug out from under small family farmers.</p><p>
American farmers actually need help finding ways to grow MORE industrial inputs, especially products that can replace petroleum as a feedstock. We use oil for more than moving people around.</p><p>
As George Washington Carver stated...</p><p>
"I believe the Creator has put<br>
ores and oil on this earth<br>
to give us a breathing spell.<br>
As we exhaust them,<br>
we must be prepared to fall back on our farms,<br>
which is God's true storehouse<br>
and can never be exhausted.<br>
For we can learn to synthesize materials<br>
for every human need from the things that grow."<br>
</br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by tommysativa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/ethanol3/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 30 Oct 2006 02:15:51 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/ethanol3/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>so many factors for consideration</strong></p><p><br>
such as:</p><p>
...the evolution of cellulosic technologies, which could then shift the focus from the sugars and starches in corn to broader cellulose-based agricultural byproducts. This could potentially flood the market with cheap, domestic fuel produced mainly from waste. Consumers would then need to put demands on auto manufacturers to start producing more vehicles that could run on higher percentage blends of ethanol (currently what we call flex-fuel vehicles). As well, I think we cannot ignore the ingenuity of folks like those who fired up the whole bio-diesel resurgence. Some are already looking at ways to retrofit gasoline engines so that they can run on non-denatured alcohol (pulling the water out of alcohol requires a substantial amount of effort and energy). </p><p>
I think the farmer's cooperatives would be wise to stay on the cutting edge of technologies, whether it's in turning their waste to fuel or networking with folks who are retrofitting engines to run on the stuff. That combination will prove to be the more sustainable model which can be implemented in nearly any locality. Even areas that are in short supply of agricultural waste, could potentially use cellulose from the consumer and commercial wastestream.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>so many factors for consideration</strong></p><p><br>
such as:</p><p>
...the evolution of cellulosic technologies, which could then shift the focus from the sugars and starches in corn to broader cellulose-based agricultural byproducts. This could potentially flood the market with cheap, domestic fuel produced mainly from waste. Consumers would then need to put demands on auto manufacturers to start producing more vehicles that could run on higher percentage blends of ethanol (currently what we call flex-fuel vehicles). As well, I think we cannot ignore the ingenuity of folks like those who fired up the whole bio-diesel resurgence. Some are already looking at ways to retrofit gasoline engines so that they can run on non-denatured alcohol (pulling the water out of alcohol requires a substantial amount of effort and energy). </p><p>
I think the farmer's cooperatives would be wise to stay on the cutting edge of technologies, whether it's in turning their waste to fuel or networking with folks who are retrofitting engines to run on the stuff. That combination will prove to be the more sustainable model which can be implemented in nearly any locality. Even areas that are in short supply of agricultural waste, could potentially use cellulose from the consumer and commercial wastestream.</br></p>
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