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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for A very long review of Friedman&#8217;s latest book]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:38:35 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Nice<p>Nice dissection. &nbsp;<p>
Might want to reword your last sentence -- as you so often state, the status is the "real deal" for many. &nbsp;They don't care whether it derives from the logo or the mileage. &nbsp;I think what you were trying to say is that he mistook the source of the status (as the logo rather than he mileage).<p>
Correct me if I'm wrong.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Nice<p>Nice dissection. &nbsp;<p>
Might want to reword your last sentence -- as you so often state, the status is the "real deal" for many. &nbsp;They don't care whether it derives from the logo or the mileage. &nbsp;I think what you were trying to say is that he mistook the source of the status (as the logo rather than he mileage).<p>
Correct me if I'm wrong.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 02:54:28 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Stealing Internet Ideas?</strong></p><p>It is easy to criticize Tom for stealing ideas from the Internet, although it sounds like he fessed up on a few such as with Joseph Romm. You should be pleased, not prissy. </p><p>
That said, some Greens are not exactly pleased with the man. Last April when presenting his book at Brown University, students pelted him with peas and one student was arrested. His stances on carbon trading could be considered controversial, I suppose. </p><p>
Hey at least somebody is out there making more people think, and many don't blog ... like we do.<br>
sammie

<p>Onward through the fog</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Stealing Internet Ideas?</strong></p><p>It is easy to criticize Tom for stealing ideas from the Internet, although it sounds like he fessed up on a few such as with Joseph Romm. You should be pleased, not prissy. </p><p>
That said, some Greens are not exactly pleased with the man. Last April when presenting his book at Brown University, students pelted him with peas and one student was arrested. His stances on carbon trading could be considered controversial, I suppose. </p><p>
Hey at least somebody is out there making more people think, and many don't blog ... like we do.<br>
sammie

<p>Onward through the fog</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 03:46:51 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Good points,  Sam<p>but Friedman has not stolen any ideas. He borrowed them just like the rest of us do. A book would grind to a halt if it had to acknowledge the source of every idea, assuming it could find the source of them. The strength of the Internet is its ability to disseminate information and as you know, the power of bloggers like us rests in our ability to get our hands on that information and openly critique it without fear of losing our jobs and without the shadow of bias as a result of having vested interests.<p>
JMG<p>
I think you are probably right. Why an object, be it a tattoo or article of clothing, has status is much less important to most of us than the fact that is does have status.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Good points,  Sam<p>but Friedman has not stolen any ideas. He borrowed them just like the rest of us do. A book would grind to a halt if it had to acknowledge the source of every idea, assuming it could find the source of them. The strength of the Internet is its ability to disseminate information and as you know, the power of bloggers like us rests in our ability to get our hands on that information and openly critique it without fear of losing our jobs and without the shadow of bias as a result of having vested interests.<p>
JMG<p>
I think you are probably right. Why an object, be it a tattoo or article of clothing, has status is much less important to most of us than the fact that is does have status.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Bart Anderson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 04:56:42 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Form a circle and start firing<p>If there is going to be a change, it will have to extend farther than "sandal-wearing riders of bicycles" like biodiversivist and me.<p>
It will have to include people and groups with whom we don't share all our values. <p>
One approach is to attack anyone who does not agree with us completely. &nbsp;("Form a circle and start firing.") &nbsp; "Sectarianism" is what the old-time Marxist groups called it. &nbsp;At this moment the Republican Party is giving us a living example.<p>
A second approach is what Carolyn Casey calls "the art of being a good ally." &nbsp;Thomas Friedman is an ally on many issues, and on those he deserves our support. &nbsp;He will get the message across to a much greater audience than we can. &nbsp;If he has a 7-figure income, that is fine with me. If he cobbles together ideas from the Internet, so much the better.<p>
I am interested in understanding where people agree and disagree with Friedman. &nbsp;Personal attacks, of the sort that the far-Right specialize in, are counter-productive. <p>
The important thing is to move forward, not to insist on ideological purity.

<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Form a circle and start firing<p>If there is going to be a change, it will have to extend farther than "sandal-wearing riders of bicycles" like biodiversivist and me.<p>
It will have to include people and groups with whom we don't share all our values. <p>
One approach is to attack anyone who does not agree with us completely. &nbsp;("Form a circle and start firing.") &nbsp; "Sectarianism" is what the old-time Marxist groups called it. &nbsp;At this moment the Republican Party is giving us a living example.<p>
A second approach is what Carolyn Casey calls "the art of being a good ally." &nbsp;Thomas Friedman is an ally on many issues, and on those he deserves our support. &nbsp;He will get the message across to a much greater audience than we can. &nbsp;If he has a 7-figure income, that is fine with me. If he cobbles together ideas from the Internet, so much the better.<p>
I am interested in understanding where people agree and disagree with Friedman. &nbsp;Personal attacks, of the sort that the far-Right specialize in, are counter-productive. <p>
The important thing is to move forward, not to insist on ideological purity.

<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by endependence</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 06:32:29 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>end dependence on polluting fuel<p>It we are going to move toward energy independence, we should work to end dependence on polluting fuel at the same time.<p>
The energy independence movement as espoused by politicians is aimed at our "liquid fuels" for transportation challenge (oil, oil, oil).<p>
A combined movement to end dependence on polluting fuels and achieve energy independence is a way to truly solve our energy challenges.<p>
If you agree, please sign the Declaration of Endependence at <a href="http://www.endependence.info/declaration" rel="nofollow">http://www.endependence.info/declaration .</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>end dependence on polluting fuel<p>It we are going to move toward energy independence, we should work to end dependence on polluting fuel at the same time.<p>
The energy independence movement as espoused by politicians is aimed at our "liquid fuels" for transportation challenge (oil, oil, oil).<p>
A combined movement to end dependence on polluting fuels and achieve energy independence is a way to truly solve our energy challenges.<p>
If you agree, please sign the Declaration of Endependence at <a href="http://www.endependence.info/declaration" rel="nofollow">http://www.endependence.info/declaration .</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 07:55:24 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Changing the status quo...</strong></p><p>Much enjoyed the critical insights of the review!</p><p>
With regard to the status system and what might be going on in Friedman's head, let me take a stab. According to evolutionary biologists, status evolved to give individuals a bigger slice of the pie (and thus increase their chances of passing on their genes). So we could assume that Friedman has an upper-end car that sends out the message, here is a rich individual. </p><p>
But it is also a hybrid. Friedman wants to send a message that he is not such an elitist that he would disregard group survivability completely. (This is part of what evolutionary biologists call the socialization sytem, the need to belong.)</p><p>
Then this whole situation is further entangled with Biod's own status system, which in this context is his (completely natural) drive to be the smartest, and his recognition that Friedman's green credentials are bogus (only 25 mpg!).</p><p>
So BioD's closing sentence does make sense to me as it stands.</p>
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				<p><strong>Changing the status quo...</strong></p><p>Much enjoyed the critical insights of the review!</p><p>
With regard to the status system and what might be going on in Friedman's head, let me take a stab. According to evolutionary biologists, status evolved to give individuals a bigger slice of the pie (and thus increase their chances of passing on their genes). So we could assume that Friedman has an upper-end car that sends out the message, here is a rich individual. </p><p>
But it is also a hybrid. Friedman wants to send a message that he is not such an elitist that he would disregard group survivability completely. (This is part of what evolutionary biologists call the socialization sytem, the need to belong.)</p><p>
Then this whole situation is further entangled with Biod's own status system, which in this context is his (completely natural) drive to be the smartest, and his recognition that Friedman's green credentials are bogus (only 25 mpg!).</p><p>
So BioD's closing sentence does make sense to me as it stands.</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by John Fish Kurmann</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 12:36:34 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Insight fuel economy<p>Hey, biod. One note on the new Honda Insight: While it will reportedly be considerably less expensive than the current Prius, it's apparently <b>not going to be more efficient. And the current Prius--which has been on sale for about 5 years already--will be superseded next Spring by the next-generation Prius, which is supposed to be significantly more fuel-efficient. I'm basing this conclusion on <a href="http://www.hondanews.eu/en/models/index.pmode/modul%7Cdetail%7C0%7C997,DEFAULT%7C21%7Ctext%7C1/index.pmode" rel="nofollow">Honda's press release for the new Insight's debut at the Paris Auto Show. Quoting:<p>
CO2 emissions and fuel economy are targeted to be at a similar level to the existing Civic Hybrid, giving drivers a flexible and highly practical lower environmental impact car. At its expected price point, Insight will have a unique combination of passenger space, luggage capacity, emissions and economy.<p>
To put some numbers on this, the 2009 Civic Hybrid is rated at 40 city/45 highway/42 combined and starts at $23,550 while the 2009 Prius is rated at 48/45/46 and starts at $22,000. <p>
My reading of that paragraph of the press release is that Honda has realized their Integrated Motor Assist system can't compete with Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive on miles per gallon in comparable vehicles. Consequently, they're going to compete on the basis of lowest upfront cost rather than lowest fuel-use cost over time. And that might be a good strategy given many folks have balked at the price premium for hybrids versus comparable conventional vehicles. Honda can scoop up the customers who will only pay ~$2,000 more upfront for a significant boost in fuel economy while Toyota gets those who are willing to pay more upfront to pay less over time on fuel. I imagine the Prius will still confer the status of driving the most fuel-efficient hybrid vehicle, however, so it'll be interesting to see how each vehicle sells.<p>
Toyota has said that they're also working to reduce the cost of their hybrid system, though, so the base model next-generation Prius may have a lower price premium than the current Prius.<br>


<p>"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith </p></br></p></p></p></p></a></b></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Insight fuel economy<p>Hey, biod. One note on the new Honda Insight: While it will reportedly be considerably less expensive than the current Prius, it's apparently <b>not going to be more efficient. And the current Prius--which has been on sale for about 5 years already--will be superseded next Spring by the next-generation Prius, which is supposed to be significantly more fuel-efficient. I'm basing this conclusion on <a href="http://www.hondanews.eu/en/models/index.pmode/modul%7Cdetail%7C0%7C997,DEFAULT%7C21%7Ctext%7C1/index.pmode" rel="nofollow">Honda's press release for the new Insight's debut at the Paris Auto Show. Quoting:<p>
CO2 emissions and fuel economy are targeted to be at a similar level to the existing Civic Hybrid, giving drivers a flexible and highly practical lower environmental impact car. At its expected price point, Insight will have a unique combination of passenger space, luggage capacity, emissions and economy.<p>
To put some numbers on this, the 2009 Civic Hybrid is rated at 40 city/45 highway/42 combined and starts at $23,550 while the 2009 Prius is rated at 48/45/46 and starts at $22,000. <p>
My reading of that paragraph of the press release is that Honda has realized their Integrated Motor Assist system can't compete with Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive on miles per gallon in comparable vehicles. Consequently, they're going to compete on the basis of lowest upfront cost rather than lowest fuel-use cost over time. And that might be a good strategy given many folks have balked at the price premium for hybrids versus comparable conventional vehicles. Honda can scoop up the customers who will only pay ~$2,000 more upfront for a significant boost in fuel economy while Toyota gets those who are willing to pay more upfront to pay less over time on fuel. I imagine the Prius will still confer the status of driving the most fuel-efficient hybrid vehicle, however, so it'll be interesting to see how each vehicle sells.<p>
Toyota has said that they're also working to reduce the cost of their hybrid system, though, so the base model next-generation Prius may have a lower price premium than the current Prius.<br>


<p>"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith </p></br></p></p></p></p></a></b></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by BlackbirdHighway</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 23:37:34 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Maryland Electricity</strong></p><p>I'm not sure about where Friedman lives, but I live in Maryland and according to my power company, Allegheny Power, 65% of my power comes from coal and 35% from nuclear.</p><p>
The solar panels I installed last summer cut my electric bill in half. I have room on my roof to double the number of panels, but that wouldn't make sense for two reasons. First, Maryland's incentive program puts limits on your array, and second, I would sometimes produce more energy than I use, and the net metering law does not allow you to get a payment from the power company if that happens. So then I would be paying lots of money for solar panels while providing energy gratis to the power company. They make enough profit without my help, and I'm not that rich.</p><p>
The climate change community seems to be very much caught up in lots of distractions like lightbulbs and vegetarianism when by far the biggest and most difficult problem is coal. At this point we need to focus almost exclusively on eliminating coal from our energy grid if we are going to stop changing the climate. Once we start making progress on coal, we can start working on everything else.</p>
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				<p><strong>Maryland Electricity</strong></p><p>I'm not sure about where Friedman lives, but I live in Maryland and according to my power company, Allegheny Power, 65% of my power comes from coal and 35% from nuclear.</p><p>
The solar panels I installed last summer cut my electric bill in half. I have room on my roof to double the number of panels, but that wouldn't make sense for two reasons. First, Maryland's incentive program puts limits on your array, and second, I would sometimes produce more energy than I use, and the net metering law does not allow you to get a payment from the power company if that happens. So then I would be paying lots of money for solar panels while providing energy gratis to the power company. They make enough profit without my help, and I'm not that rich.</p><p>
The climate change community seems to be very much caught up in lots of distractions like lightbulbs and vegetarianism when by far the biggest and most difficult problem is coal. At this point we need to focus almost exclusively on eliminating coal from our energy grid if we are going to stop changing the climate. Once we start making progress on coal, we can start working on everything else.</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by jimbeyer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:51:20 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>You can see the entrenchment starting.....</strong></p><p>It seems that people like Friedman with means and "in the know" at least to some extent, will work to secure their own futures, even to the point of making pointless espousals to the great unwashed (i.e., us) to further that end.</p><p>
I've always been sort of annoyed at people that spend huge amounts of money to live "green". Like Friedman or even the late Dennis Weaver. &nbsp;It's a little annoying and not responsive to the larger problem. &nbsp;(Anyone can live green with lots of money, it's ALL about the economics of a world living sustainably.)</p><p>
It's odd that Friedman is projecting his true feelings, even though he thinks we can't see it. &nbsp;He's entrenching. &nbsp;He sees whats going to go down, so he's making his space that he can live in. &nbsp;Even after our structures collapse, which I think HE thinks is going to happen. &nbsp;Is this the type of futurist that we should be reading, a man who's already decided the game is up, but doesn't even have the guts to tell us?</p><p>
When faced with a future involving change, one can be a part of those affected, or one can try to build a wall to protect oneself from the changes that will occur. &nbsp;It is apparent what side of such a wall Friedman prefers to live on. &nbsp;Given that, one might regards future works with him with suspicion, as they may contain subtle directives to the masses which may serve his interests, but not ours.

<p>Build plugin hybrids that run on renewable methane.  That's all that's needed.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>You can see the entrenchment starting.....</strong></p><p>It seems that people like Friedman with means and "in the know" at least to some extent, will work to secure their own futures, even to the point of making pointless espousals to the great unwashed (i.e., us) to further that end.</p><p>
I've always been sort of annoyed at people that spend huge amounts of money to live "green". Like Friedman or even the late Dennis Weaver. &nbsp;It's a little annoying and not responsive to the larger problem. &nbsp;(Anyone can live green with lots of money, it's ALL about the economics of a world living sustainably.)</p><p>
It's odd that Friedman is projecting his true feelings, even though he thinks we can't see it. &nbsp;He's entrenching. &nbsp;He sees whats going to go down, so he's making his space that he can live in. &nbsp;Even after our structures collapse, which I think HE thinks is going to happen. &nbsp;Is this the type of futurist that we should be reading, a man who's already decided the game is up, but doesn't even have the guts to tell us?</p><p>
When faced with a future involving change, one can be a part of those affected, or one can try to build a wall to protect oneself from the changes that will occur. &nbsp;It is apparent what side of such a wall Friedman prefers to live on. &nbsp;Given that, one might regards future works with him with suspicion, as they may contain subtle directives to the masses which may serve his interests, but not ours.

<p>Build plugin hybrids that run on renewable methane.  That's all that's needed.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:13:00 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Mass media lags</strong></p><p>Cutting edge information does not build one a McMansion. &nbsp;Hehehey.</p><p>
Who wants one anyway? &nbsp;Zero carbon footprint is the new status symbol, once again mass media lags the trend.</p><p>
Friedman is a very succsessful part of that very conventional (ho,hum)norm. &nbsp;At least he listens to Romm and a few others who live and write on the edge. &nbsp;Sean and bio-d and a few other blog netizens even work on it!

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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				<p><strong>Mass media lags</strong></p><p>Cutting edge information does not build one a McMansion. &nbsp;Hehehey.</p><p>
Who wants one anyway? &nbsp;Zero carbon footprint is the new status symbol, once again mass media lags the trend.</p><p>
Friedman is a very succsessful part of that very conventional (ho,hum)norm. &nbsp;At least he listens to Romm and a few others who live and write on the edge. &nbsp;Sean and bio-d and a few other blog netizens even work on it!

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:56:54 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Thanks, John<p>Hope the new Insight sells well. We need more high mileage cars for people to choose from when they go to replace their SUVs. What's up with the new TDI diesels?<p>
Blackbird,<p>
Here we get 25 Kw peak power and are billed for the amount of electricity consumed over a twelve month period. In Seattle I could run my meter backwards in the summer enough to get through the rest of the year without an electric bill.<p>
It is a problem that we can't sell extra electricity to the power company. And like you say, this is why most will install an undersize system. Personally, I would just go for full capacity knowing that I will overshoot or undershoot now and then and not worry about it. Another idea is to utilize dual systems where you can switch from gas heat to electric if you find you need to burn off some of your electric credits, saving on gas. Sizing a system to generate about 90% of your power would also seem prudent and isn't necessarily a show stopper.<p>
The utilities have no incentive to develop smarter grids. Regulations that make them accommodate distributed power will give them some incentive, they are not going to do it out of the kindness of their hearts. This is where we need our government's help.<p>
I got the power information from <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/maryland.html" rel="nofollow">here. Looks like I was using the 1990 column instead of the 2006 column. Nuclear power went from 3.8% to 28.3%.<p>
Jim<p>
As far as I can determine, Friedman spends next to nothing to live green, certainly an infinitesimally small percentage of his net worth.<p>
DrX<p>
You nailed it:<p>
"Zero carbon footprint is the new status symbol, once again mass media lags the trend."<br>


<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Thanks, John<p>Hope the new Insight sells well. We need more high mileage cars for people to choose from when they go to replace their SUVs. What's up with the new TDI diesels?<p>
Blackbird,<p>
Here we get 25 Kw peak power and are billed for the amount of electricity consumed over a twelve month period. In Seattle I could run my meter backwards in the summer enough to get through the rest of the year without an electric bill.<p>
It is a problem that we can't sell extra electricity to the power company. And like you say, this is why most will install an undersize system. Personally, I would just go for full capacity knowing that I will overshoot or undershoot now and then and not worry about it. Another idea is to utilize dual systems where you can switch from gas heat to electric if you find you need to burn off some of your electric credits, saving on gas. Sizing a system to generate about 90% of your power would also seem prudent and isn't necessarily a show stopper.<p>
The utilities have no incentive to develop smarter grids. Regulations that make them accommodate distributed power will give them some incentive, they are not going to do it out of the kindness of their hearts. This is where we need our government's help.<p>
I got the power information from <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/maryland.html" rel="nofollow">here. Looks like I was using the 1990 column instead of the 2006 column. Nuclear power went from 3.8% to 28.3%.<p>
Jim<p>
As far as I can determine, Friedman spends next to nothing to live green, certainly an infinitesimally small percentage of his net worth.<p>
DrX<p>
You nailed it:<p>
"Zero carbon footprint is the new status symbol, once again mass media lags the trend."<br>


<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></br></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by BILL HANNAHAN</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:59:06 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/12</guid>
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				<p><strong> Don't sweat the little stuff.<p><br>
The total environmental impact of a newborn infant integrated over all time is vastly greater than that of a big house or big car, because they do not reproduce themselves.<p>
There is a simple question that determines a persons overall environmental impact on the earth.<p>
"How many children do you have?"

<p><a href="http://coal2nuclear.com/energy_facts.htm" rel="nofollow">Things Everybody Should Know About Energy</a></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong> Don't sweat the little stuff.<p><br>
The total environmental impact of a newborn infant integrated over all time is vastly greater than that of a big house or big car, because they do not reproduce themselves.<p>
There is a simple question that determines a persons overall environmental impact on the earth.<p>
"How many children do you have?"

<p><a href="http://coal2nuclear.com/energy_facts.htm" rel="nofollow">Things Everybody Should Know About Energy</a></p></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by John Fish Kurmann</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:21:05 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Re: new diesel vehicles<p>Hi, biod. Though I've been generally aware of the plans by major automakers to introduce new so-called "clean" diesel models in the U.S., I really haven't paid much attention because I'm highly skeptical of the idea that diesels can make a positive contribution to solving our transportation challenge. Here's why:<p>
First, I don't think there are any ecologically viable ways to produce biodiesel on a large scale. By that I mean we have no way to produce a large amount of biodiesel without contributing to the destruction of biodiversity--and to extinctions. If we have no good prospects for running these new diesels on a high percentage of biodiesel in the foreseeable future--much less the near-term--I don't see any value in promoting them.<p>
Second, now that diesel fuel is significantly more expensive than gasoline, the MPG advantage for diesels is at least partially cancelled out in strictly economic terms (I haven't run any numbers to try to determine exactly how this balances out, though). Given that diesels are also more expensive than comparable conventional vehicles upfront and their reputation among Americans as being dirty and unreliable, I doubt many folks are going to be interested in buying one in hopes their decision may pay back over time. Moreover, some automakers have backed off of their plans to introduce new diesel passenger vehicles given the higher price for diesel fuel. I also think diesel is likely to remain more expensive than gasoline given the increased demand for diesel fuel caused by industrialization in China, India, Brazil, and certain other countries.<p>
Third, the new diesels aren't really "clean" compared to modern gasoline vehicles, much less hybrids. They're just significantly cleaner than the old diesel engines, but, from what I understand, the emissions systems necessary to make them cleaner are expensive--which takes us back to that higher upfront cost. Automakers could theoretically combine diesel and hybrid technologies for a super-MPG vehicle--and concept cars that would do this have been shown at auto shows--but imagine how much more expensive a diesel-hybrid would be than a conventional vehicle. At this point, I doubt enough folks would be willing to buy such a vehicle to make a business case for producing one, though the price premiums for diesel and hybrid technology may some day drop enough to make a diesel-hybrid viable.<p>
For those who are interested, the Union of Concerned Scientists has also been skeptical of the likelihood that diesel engines will play a major role in reducing greenhouse gas and other pollution from passenger vehicles. The UCS has been a strong proponent of hybrid technology instead. They released a report several years ago titled "<a href="http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/dieseldilemma_fullreport.pdf" rel="nofollow">The Diesel Dilemma: Diesel's Role in the Race for Clean Cars" which compares diesels to hybrids and more advanced and fuel-efficient gasoline vehicles. 

<p>"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith </p></a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Re: new diesel vehicles<p>Hi, biod. Though I've been generally aware of the plans by major automakers to introduce new so-called "clean" diesel models in the U.S., I really haven't paid much attention because I'm highly skeptical of the idea that diesels can make a positive contribution to solving our transportation challenge. Here's why:<p>
First, I don't think there are any ecologically viable ways to produce biodiesel on a large scale. By that I mean we have no way to produce a large amount of biodiesel without contributing to the destruction of biodiversity--and to extinctions. If we have no good prospects for running these new diesels on a high percentage of biodiesel in the foreseeable future--much less the near-term--I don't see any value in promoting them.<p>
Second, now that diesel fuel is significantly more expensive than gasoline, the MPG advantage for diesels is at least partially cancelled out in strictly economic terms (I haven't run any numbers to try to determine exactly how this balances out, though). Given that diesels are also more expensive than comparable conventional vehicles upfront and their reputation among Americans as being dirty and unreliable, I doubt many folks are going to be interested in buying one in hopes their decision may pay back over time. Moreover, some automakers have backed off of their plans to introduce new diesel passenger vehicles given the higher price for diesel fuel. I also think diesel is likely to remain more expensive than gasoline given the increased demand for diesel fuel caused by industrialization in China, India, Brazil, and certain other countries.<p>
Third, the new diesels aren't really "clean" compared to modern gasoline vehicles, much less hybrids. They're just significantly cleaner than the old diesel engines, but, from what I understand, the emissions systems necessary to make them cleaner are expensive--which takes us back to that higher upfront cost. Automakers could theoretically combine diesel and hybrid technologies for a super-MPG vehicle--and concept cars that would do this have been shown at auto shows--but imagine how much more expensive a diesel-hybrid would be than a conventional vehicle. At this point, I doubt enough folks would be willing to buy such a vehicle to make a business case for producing one, though the price premiums for diesel and hybrid technology may some day drop enough to make a diesel-hybrid viable.<p>
For those who are interested, the Union of Concerned Scientists has also been skeptical of the likelihood that diesel engines will play a major role in reducing greenhouse gas and other pollution from passenger vehicles. The UCS has been a strong proponent of hybrid technology instead. They released a report several years ago titled "<a href="http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/dieseldilemma_fullreport.pdf" rel="nofollow">The Diesel Dilemma: Diesel's Role in the Race for Clean Cars" which compares diesels to hybrids and more advanced and fuel-efficient gasoline vehicles. 

<p>"You can never get enough of what you do not really want." - Huston Smith </p></a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by JMG</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:22:13 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/energy-independence-is-the-easy-part/14</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hardened pollution control equipment<p>Round these parts, people are using little battery operated saws to whip under cars and cut out their pollution control equipment entirely (for the platinum, presumably). &nbsp;They're also raiding cemeteries for any brass, copper, etc.<p>
Whenever I read about clean diesels I wonder how long it takes the local meth head to strip one of any precious metals.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Hardened pollution control equipment<p>Round these parts, people are using little battery operated saws to whip under cars and cut out their pollution control equipment entirely (for the platinum, presumably). &nbsp;They're also raiding cemeteries for any brass, copper, etc.<p>
Whenever I read about clean diesels I wonder how long it takes the local meth head to strip one of any precious metals.

<p>The <a href="http://is.gd/39gm" rel="nofollow">5% Project

Let's live on the planet as if we intend to stay.</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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