<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Coal’s position in the energy market is more precarious than is generally acknowledged]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by vakibs http://www.grist.org/article/enemy-of-the-human-race-paper-tiger-edition/ Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:25:27 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/enemy-of-the-human-race-paper-tiger-edition/1 coal is cheap.. stop kidding yourself

Dirty-coal is cheap, and it will remain cheap for quite some time.

Coal mining is a hazardous occupation, but it is protected by a large network of miner-unions.

People will keep burning coal until they get convinced that doing so is as yucky as open defecation.

If coal is not stopped voluntarily by the will of people, it will never be stopped. None of your fancy windmills or solar mirrors have a chance of shutting down coal plants.

This joke of CCS will never be constructed. It will be prohibitively expensive, and coal plants will never agree to tie that rock round their necks. So whenever we environmentalists speak of coal, we should remember that it is dirty-coal we are up against, and not some clean-coal from imagination-land. Dirty coal is cheap, and thus remain a dangerous opponent on the marketplace.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> coal is cheap.. stop kidding yourself

Dirty-coal is cheap, and it will remain cheap for quite some time.

Coal mining is a hazardous occupation, but it is protected by a large network of miner-unions.

People will keep burning coal until they get convinced that doing so is as yucky as open defecation.

If coal is not stopped voluntarily by the will of people, it will never be stopped. None of your fancy windmills or solar mirrors have a chance of shutting down coal plants.

This joke of CCS will never be constructed. It will be prohibitively expensive, and coal plants will never agree to tie that rock round their necks. So whenever we environmentalists speak of coal, we should remember that it is dirty-coal we are up against, and not some clean-coal from imagination-land. Dirty coal is cheap, and thus remain a dangerous opponent on the marketplace.

Let's think in terms of eco-dollars.

]]> Comment #2 by rsmith02 http://www.grist.org/article/enemy-of-the-human-race-paper-tiger-edition/ Wed, 22 Oct 2008 06:56:21 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/enemy-of-the-human-race-paper-tiger-edition/2 Not so cheap

"Dirty-coal is cheap, and it will remain cheap for quite some time. "

Not really.  This is what the whole NSR fight is about- old plants aren't cheap when they have to be upgraded and trigger clean air requirements.   That's what industry wants to get out of.  Sooner or later these 30-50 year old plants have to be rebuilt or retired.

Carbon mandates can also add significant costs, especially if permits are auctioned and the plants aren't grandfathered in.

Capital costs for new coal plants are prohibitive, and IGCC even more so.

]]> Not so cheap

"Dirty-coal is cheap, and it will remain cheap for quite some time. "

Not really.  This is what the whole NSR fight is about- old plants aren't cheap when they have to be upgraded and trigger clean air requirements.   That's what industry wants to get out of.  Sooner or later these 30-50 year old plants have to be rebuilt or retired.

Carbon mandates can also add significant costs, especially if permits are auctioned and the plants aren't grandfathered in.

Capital costs for new coal plants are prohibitive, and IGCC even more so.

]]> Comment #3 by mwildfire http://www.grist.org/article/enemy-of-the-human-race-paper-tiger-edition/ Tue, 28 Oct 2008 06:53:31 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/enemy-of-the-human-race-paper-tiger-edition/3 vakibs:

I like your "open defacation" comparison.
I think the real risk is that Big Coal will get away with the sleight-of-hand it is attempting to pull off: to crow about how cheap coal is, and how clean it can be IF they use IGCC and CCS, and hope nobody sees that if they do use those things, then it's not cheap anymore. In fact, it's probably more expensive than solar or wind--which have no ongoing fuel costs, an enormous advantage. What the industry hopes to pull off, I think, is to hook in big government subsidies for coal liquefaction plants and relatively modern, relatively clean power plants, and then "discover" that sequestration is not practical after all--but shucks, the plants are already built, and they're too expensive to abandon now...

]]> vakibs:

I like your "open defacation" comparison.
I think the real risk is that Big Coal will get away with the sleight-of-hand it is attempting to pull off: to crow about how cheap coal is, and how clean it can be IF they use IGCC and CCS, and hope nobody sees that if they do use those things, then it's not cheap anymore. In fact, it's probably more expensive than solar or wind--which have no ongoing fuel costs, an enormous advantage. What the industry hopes to pull off, I think, is to hook in big government subsidies for coal liquefaction plants and relatively modern, relatively clean power plants, and then "discover" that sequestration is not practical after all--but shucks, the plants are already built, and they're too expensive to abandon now...

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