<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Greenpeace India points out the obvious]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by GreenEngineer http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:35:53 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/1 So much for American leadership...

China is being very flexible, and by many accounts positioning itself as a leader for the 21st century.

This is good news, and it doesn't surprise me.  The climate crisis has created an opportunity for any powerful nation that wants to be one of the Great Powers of the next century to rise to the occasion.  Successful leadership on this issue will generate both tremendous global political capital and tremendous economic opportunities.  Whichever nation emerges as the leader in green technology and design will be the America of the next century.

That could have been us (the US).  It still could be, but that window of opportunity is closing day by day.  As it stands, China has an opportunity to do to our entire country what Japan has done to the US auto industry: have a vision, take a chance, and leave the competition with its pants down wondering what just happened.

]]> So much for American leadership...

China is being very flexible, and by many accounts positioning itself as a leader for the 21st century.

This is good news, and it doesn't surprise me.  The climate crisis has created an opportunity for any powerful nation that wants to be one of the Great Powers of the next century to rise to the occasion.  Successful leadership on this issue will generate both tremendous global political capital and tremendous economic opportunities.  Whichever nation emerges as the leader in green technology and design will be the America of the next century.

That could have been us (the US).  It still could be, but that window of opportunity is closing day by day.  As it stands, China has an opportunity to do to our entire country what Japan has done to the US auto industry: have a vision, take a chance, and leave the competition with its pants down wondering what just happened.

]]> Comment #2 by GreenEngineer http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:37:15 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/2 also

Any further, specific information about China's role in Bali would be appreciated.  I would like to have something solid to throw at people who want to use China's supposed instransigence on this subject as an excuse for American inaction.

]]> also

Any further, specific information about China's role in Bali would be appreciated.  I would like to have something solid to throw at people who want to use China's supposed instransigence on this subject as an excuse for American inaction.

]]> Comment #3 by mat http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:49:16 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/3 oh no


oh no, America is definitely the bad guy here.
seriously.

and even though i've posted on other articles about China's horrible behavior and attitudes on ANY biodiversity or conservation topic, America is to blame for a lot of it.

i just think that there is enough blame to go around and not just the US and China.

America needs to own up to it's BAD environmental policies, but other countries (including China) need to own up to the fact that they are the new, emerging bad guys.

the US has helped to export the American way of life to otherwise, third world nations. in fact, other nations seem to covet ALL THE BAD STUFF we have and none of the good stuff in America.

historically, America has always been the good guys, but now with the Iraq fiasco and other right-wing political stances too numerous to list, we are in that position no longer, and primarily, it's all own fault.

]]> oh no


oh no, America is definitely the bad guy here.
seriously.

and even though i've posted on other articles about China's horrible behavior and attitudes on ANY biodiversity or conservation topic, America is to blame for a lot of it.

i just think that there is enough blame to go around and not just the US and China.

America needs to own up to it's BAD environmental policies, but other countries (including China) need to own up to the fact that they are the new, emerging bad guys.

the US has helped to export the American way of life to otherwise, third world nations. in fact, other nations seem to covet ALL THE BAD STUFF we have and none of the good stuff in America.

historically, America has always been the good guys, but now with the Iraq fiasco and other right-wing political stances too numerous to list, we are in that position no longer, and primarily, it's all own fault.

]]> Comment #4 by mat http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:28:21 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/4 correction


ok, i'm going to amend my last paragraph above before everyone else does -

i think the USA has been perceived to be more a good guy than a bad guy, historically, at least as far as the end of WWII. we've at least been thought of as the ultimate land of opportunity, because of our more or less democratic way or life. (we are actually a plurality, i think)

anyway,
our founding fathers did know what they were doing.
that's my opinion anyway, and now i think we slip internationally into the bottomless negative  abyss of public perception because the USA is no good at being a team player if we are not in charge.  a pox has come upon us.....


]]> correction


ok, i'm going to amend my last paragraph above before everyone else does -

i think the USA has been perceived to be more a good guy than a bad guy, historically, at least as far as the end of WWII. we've at least been thought of as the ultimate land of opportunity, because of our more or less democratic way or life. (we are actually a plurality, i think)

anyway,
our founding fathers did know what they were doing.
that's my opinion anyway, and now i think we slip internationally into the bottomless negative  abyss of public perception because the USA is no good at being a team player if we are not in charge.  a pox has come upon us.....


]]> Comment #5 by bookerly http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:31:44 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/5 Emerging


   Dear Mat,

       Can you provide us with analysis of why you consider China as a new emerging bad guy?  What are your sources of information?

   Tom, thanks for the posting.  I hope that the Bush people will finally get their act together and back off.  One of the Grist news articles suggested that the US, Japan, Canada and Australia were blocking agreements on emissions cuts by developed countries.

   I get the US and Canada, but I thought Australia had decided to become good on global warming, and what is Japan doing, they were below my radar on this (smile).

patrick in Beijing

]]> Emerging


   Dear Mat,

       Can you provide us with analysis of why you consider China as a new emerging bad guy?  What are your sources of information?

   Tom, thanks for the posting.  I hope that the Bush people will finally get their act together and back off.  One of the Grist news articles suggested that the US, Japan, Canada and Australia were blocking agreements on emissions cuts by developed countries.

   I get the US and Canada, but I thought Australia had decided to become good on global warming, and what is Japan doing, they were below my radar on this (smile).

patrick in Beijing

]]> Comment #6 by stevenearlsalmony http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:37:30 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/6 ONLY economic growth, NOT ecologic protection,...

........matters to the self-proclaimed "Masters of the Universe", the leading elders in my not-so-great generation who appear to be taking our children down a "primrose path" toward catastrophic circumstances in the offing.

What I find worrisome is the way wealthy and powerful managers of economic globalization cannot see anything beyond wealth- and power-accumulation for themselves and their minions. The scientific facts that the Earth "has a fever" and could soon be on fire is everywhere ignored and denied by too many current leaders who have unmet responsibilities to assume and undischarged duties to perform, for the sake of our children.

Rather than acknowledge and address the global ecological challenges looming before humanity, these "economy first, last and always" leaders  choose to forsake intellectual honesty and courage and instead deny reality and encourage others to spread misinformation so as to protect the money, power and privileges of a tiny minority of humanity, come whatsoever may.

In Bali on this very day we are hearing from a group of educated denialists and naysayers who are evidently being forced by circumstances at the Climate Change Conference in Indonesia to make up a pitiful "have the courage to do nothing defense" to buttress their "economic growth is all that matters" message.

Perhaps this duplicitous rear-guard action against necessary change is perpetrated by scholarly representatives of the wealthy, the powerful, and others who find riches, power and privileges to be all that really matter, come what may for our children, for biodiversity and the environment, for Earth as fit place for human habitation, and for the future of life as we know it.

Steven Earl Salmony, Ph.D., M.P.A.
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001
http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/



]]> ONLY economic growth, NOT ecologic protection,...

........matters to the self-proclaimed "Masters of the Universe", the leading elders in my not-so-great generation who appear to be taking our children down a "primrose path" toward catastrophic circumstances in the offing.

What I find worrisome is the way wealthy and powerful managers of economic globalization cannot see anything beyond wealth- and power-accumulation for themselves and their minions. The scientific facts that the Earth "has a fever" and could soon be on fire is everywhere ignored and denied by too many current leaders who have unmet responsibilities to assume and undischarged duties to perform, for the sake of our children.

Rather than acknowledge and address the global ecological challenges looming before humanity, these "economy first, last and always" leaders  choose to forsake intellectual honesty and courage and instead deny reality and encourage others to spread misinformation so as to protect the money, power and privileges of a tiny minority of humanity, come whatsoever may.

In Bali on this very day we are hearing from a group of educated denialists and naysayers who are evidently being forced by circumstances at the Climate Change Conference in Indonesia to make up a pitiful "have the courage to do nothing defense" to buttress their "economic growth is all that matters" message.

Perhaps this duplicitous rear-guard action against necessary change is perpetrated by scholarly representatives of the wealthy, the powerful, and others who find riches, power and privileges to be all that really matter, come what may for our children, for biodiversity and the environment, for Earth as fit place for human habitation, and for the future of life as we know it.

Steven Earl Salmony, Ph.D., M.P.A.
AWAREness Campaign on The Human Population, established 2001
http://sustainabilitysoutheast.org/



]]> Comment #7 by mat http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:44:29 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/7 one link of too many to count

do your own research. start here:

http://www.nrdc.org/onearth/06sum/field.asp?r=n

]]> one link of too many to count

do your own research. start here:

http://www.nrdc.org/onearth/06sum/field.asp?r=n

]]> Comment #8 by mat http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 05:27:39 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/8 also read

first, the relevant excerpt:

"The world needs an alliance - especially of those nations that weigh heaviest in the scales where earth is in the balance. I salute Europe and Japan for the steps they've taken in recent years to meet the challenge, and the new government in Australia, which has made solving the climate crisis its first priority.

But the outcome will be decisively influenced by two nations that are now failing to do enough: the United States and China. While India is also growing fast in importance, it should be absolutely clear that it is the two largest CO2 emitters - most of all, my own country -- that will need to make the boldest moves, or stand accountable before history for their failure to act.

Both countries should stop using the other's behavior as an excuse for stalemate and instead develop an agenda for mutual survival in a shared global environment."

from Al Gore's acceptance speech in Oslo Norway.

and a link to the RAN website which has published the whole speech:
http://understory.ran.org/2007/12/11/we-have-a-purpose-we ...

]]> also read

first, the relevant excerpt:

"The world needs an alliance - especially of those nations that weigh heaviest in the scales where earth is in the balance. I salute Europe and Japan for the steps they've taken in recent years to meet the challenge, and the new government in Australia, which has made solving the climate crisis its first priority.

But the outcome will be decisively influenced by two nations that are now failing to do enough: the United States and China. While India is also growing fast in importance, it should be absolutely clear that it is the two largest CO2 emitters - most of all, my own country -- that will need to make the boldest moves, or stand accountable before history for their failure to act.

Both countries should stop using the other's behavior as an excuse for stalemate and instead develop an agenda for mutual survival in a shared global environment."

from Al Gore's acceptance speech in Oslo Norway.

and a link to the RAN website which has published the whole speech:
http://understory.ran.org/2007/12/11/we-have-a-purpose-we ...

]]> Comment #9 by sernya http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:22:06 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/9 Why is China an "emerging bad guy"?

Tibet, a country the size of Western Europe was one of the most pristine. No dams, no mining, forests were healthy and they had a large and diverse wildlife population.

Since China invaded deforestation has happened at an alarming rate, mining is uncontrolled, and they are polluting the source waters of most of the Asian continent, which originate in Tibet.

See this website for the most recent report of the environmental degradation caused by the Chinese occupation of Tibet.  
http://www.tibet.net/en/diir/pubs/edi/tib2007/content.htm ...

I wouldn't say China is an emerging bad guy, I think we are finally recognizing what has been happening for the last 50 years.


]]> Why is China an "emerging bad guy"?

Tibet, a country the size of Western Europe was one of the most pristine. No dams, no mining, forests were healthy and they had a large and diverse wildlife population.

Since China invaded deforestation has happened at an alarming rate, mining is uncontrolled, and they are polluting the source waters of most of the Asian continent, which originate in Tibet.

See this website for the most recent report of the environmental degradation caused by the Chinese occupation of Tibet.  
http://www.tibet.net/en/diir/pubs/edi/tib2007/content.htm ...

I wouldn't say China is an emerging bad guy, I think we are finally recognizing what has been happening for the last 50 years.


]]> Comment #10 by mat http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:52:20 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/10 thanks

amen and hallelujah. thanks sernya - let's not tippytoe around anymore!

but nothing, NOTHING absolves the USA of OUR responsibilities in this matter. we suck, we sabotaged the climate meetings in Bali practically single-handed even AFTER China was making weak squeaky sounds of possible cooperation maybe..... we should be ashamed of ourselves. pot calling the kettle black - doesn't work. in the long run, the public isn't THAT stupid.

i'm disgusted

]]> thanks

amen and hallelujah. thanks sernya - let's not tippytoe around anymore!

but nothing, NOTHING absolves the USA of OUR responsibilities in this matter. we suck, we sabotaged the climate meetings in Bali practically single-handed even AFTER China was making weak squeaky sounds of possible cooperation maybe..... we should be ashamed of ourselves. pot calling the kettle black - doesn't work. in the long run, the public isn't THAT stupid.

i'm disgusted

]]> Comment #11 by bookerly http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:57:12 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/11 Yet


   Mat, you say you should be ashamed of yourself, but still can't resist China bashing.  Where is that coming from?  I definitely get the idea that you don't like China.  But you don't offer a clear explanation of why China as opposed to say, India, or Brazil, or Venezuela.

   You should go and read your own link.  While you see it as all negative, my reading is that a lot of people, inside and outside of China are working to try to solve some very difficult problems.  How does that make the Chinese bad guys?  

   You might read Eric De Place's comments on why Al Gore's speech is wrong, and you might also explain why per capita CO2 production is less relevant than national totals.

   Finally, you say that nothing absolves the US, yet you posted in another thread that you were in support of the US refusal to sign on any Global Warming actions UNLESS China and India agreed to suffer more.  So, how is that different from George Bush's tactics at stalling, and denying?

   All I really get from you is that you don't like China.  Fair.  Don't visit!! (smile).  

   But China in this debate is not just China, it is the symbol for the attitude of the developed (read rich) nations towards the developing (read poor) to say nothing of the undeveloped (read poorest).

   Bashing China doesn't change it's dilemma.  How to raise it's people out of poverty in a sustainable manner.  It is trying and struggling, but so far the US is more interested in China as a scapegoat for it's own unwillingness to even try.  

patrick in Beijing

   

]]> Yet


   Mat, you say you should be ashamed of yourself, but still can't resist China bashing.  Where is that coming from?  I definitely get the idea that you don't like China.  But you don't offer a clear explanation of why China as opposed to say, India, or Brazil, or Venezuela.

   You should go and read your own link.  While you see it as all negative, my reading is that a lot of people, inside and outside of China are working to try to solve some very difficult problems.  How does that make the Chinese bad guys?  

   You might read Eric De Place's comments on why Al Gore's speech is wrong, and you might also explain why per capita CO2 production is less relevant than national totals.

   Finally, you say that nothing absolves the US, yet you posted in another thread that you were in support of the US refusal to sign on any Global Warming actions UNLESS China and India agreed to suffer more.  So, how is that different from George Bush's tactics at stalling, and denying?

   All I really get from you is that you don't like China.  Fair.  Don't visit!! (smile).  

   But China in this debate is not just China, it is the symbol for the attitude of the developed (read rich) nations towards the developing (read poor) to say nothing of the undeveloped (read poorest).

   Bashing China doesn't change it's dilemma.  How to raise it's people out of poverty in a sustainable manner.  It is trying and struggling, but so far the US is more interested in China as a scapegoat for it's own unwillingness to even try.  

patrick in Beijing

   

]]> Comment #12 by bookerly http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:00:20 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/12 Tibet


   Tibet is part of China.  You can argue the history all you want, but it is part of China.  That is not going to change.

   If you start from that understanding, you will get further in discussing what is going on.  China certainly plans to spend money to help Tibet develop.  The fantasy of westerners about a perfect Tibet pre-1950 ignores the extreme poverty the people lived in then.  And offers no solutions to poverty now.  How do you alleviate poverty without development?  

   patrick in Beijing

]]> Tibet


   Tibet is part of China.  You can argue the history all you want, but it is part of China.  That is not going to change.

   If you start from that understanding, you will get further in discussing what is going on.  China certainly plans to spend money to help Tibet develop.  The fantasy of westerners about a perfect Tibet pre-1950 ignores the extreme poverty the people lived in then.  And offers no solutions to poverty now.  How do you alleviate poverty without development?  

   patrick in Beijing

]]> Comment #13 by hank http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:20:44 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/13 a musical accompaniment

Gordon Lightfoot:

"I'm gonna buy me a poor man's trouble
Yes Lord to help me home
I'm gonna buy me a poor man's trouble
Yes Lord to help me home
And when I get my trouble and woe
Then homeward I will go
I'm gonna get a little trouble and woe to get me home ...."

> it turns out that there are plenty of people
> within India who have emissions above, and
> sometimes far above, the sustainable global
> average.
> ...emissions classes here in the U.S. as well.

Yep.  Good pointer, big elephants.









]]> a musical accompaniment

Gordon Lightfoot:

"I'm gonna buy me a poor man's trouble
Yes Lord to help me home
I'm gonna buy me a poor man's trouble
Yes Lord to help me home
And when I get my trouble and woe
Then homeward I will go
I'm gonna get a little trouble and woe to get me home ...."

> it turns out that there are plenty of people
> within India who have emissions above, and
> sometimes far above, the sustainable global
> average.
> ...emissions classes here in the U.S. as well.

Yep.  Good pointer, big elephants.









]]> Comment #14 by hank http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/ Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:41:38 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/elephants-in-the-room/14 factor this into your calculations:

"... Key among the secular trends in China is the massive urbanization movement that has been promoted by the government and influences economic policy. As Table 1 below shows, developed countries tend to run  urbanization rates of between 65 percent and 90 percent, with Japan at the low end of this  range and Korea, the U.S. and the U.K. each above 80 percent. ..."

http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Featured+Market+Commentary/E ...

]]> factor this into your calculations:

"... Key among the secular trends in China is the massive urbanization movement that has been promoted by the government and influences economic policy. As Table 1 below shows, developed countries tend to run  urbanization rates of between 65 percent and 90 percent, with Japan at the low end of this  range and Korea, the U.S. and the U.K. each above 80 percent. ..."

http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Featured+Market+Commentary/E ...

]]>