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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for How does Edwards&#8217; union support mesh with his ambitious climate-change platform?]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by David Roberts</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:51:37 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hm ...</strong></p><p>I'm not sure I noticed this before, but it seems the Edwards people are making a point of saying the moratorium would block coal plants that aren't "compatible with" sequestration.</p><p>
Translation: IGCC plants, where the CO2 is separated and (theoretically) easier to capture.</p><p>
This is very, very different from a moratorium on coal plants without actual sequestration. It's going to be no help at all to the climate if we get a bunch of IGCC plants across the country and then have to wait 10-15 more years for scalable sequestration. 

<p>grist.org</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Hm ...</strong></p><p>I'm not sure I noticed this before, but it seems the Edwards people are making a point of saying the moratorium would block coal plants that aren't "compatible with" sequestration.</p><p>
Translation: IGCC plants, where the CO2 is separated and (theoretically) easier to capture.</p><p>
This is very, very different from a moratorium on coal plants without actual sequestration. It's going to be no help at all to the climate if we get a bunch of IGCC plants across the country and then have to wait 10-15 more years for scalable sequestration. 

<p>grist.org</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:36:36 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>IGCC</strong></p><p>It's going to be no help at all to the climate if we get a bunch of IGCC plants across the country and then have to wait 10-15 more years for scalable sequestration.</p><p>
I can see why you say that, but I disagree. Practically speaking, mandating only the construction of IGCC coal plants means that new coal will be MUCH more efficient, so fewer will need to be built, and much more expensive, and thus probably more costly than wind. &nbsp;It would mean an end to the old-style cheap-and-super-dirty plants, which is what has allowed coal to enjoy such an enormous capital cost advantage for so long.</p><p>
Is it everything we want? &nbsp;Of course not. &nbsp;Is enough? &nbsp;Probably not. &nbsp;But is it something? &nbsp;Oh, very much yes.</p>
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				<p><strong>IGCC</strong></p><p>It's going to be no help at all to the climate if we get a bunch of IGCC plants across the country and then have to wait 10-15 more years for scalable sequestration.</p><p>
I can see why you say that, but I disagree. Practically speaking, mandating only the construction of IGCC coal plants means that new coal will be MUCH more efficient, so fewer will need to be built, and much more expensive, and thus probably more costly than wind. &nbsp;It would mean an end to the old-style cheap-and-super-dirty plants, which is what has allowed coal to enjoy such an enormous capital cost advantage for so long.</p><p>
Is it everything we want? &nbsp;Of course not. &nbsp;Is enough? &nbsp;Probably not. &nbsp;But is it something? &nbsp;Oh, very much yes.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by David Roberts</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:40:37 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Fair enough</strong></p><p>Mainly I wanted to note that I think Edwards' campaign is being a little slippery -- they mean mandating IGCC but they leave the distinct impression that they're mandating IGCC + CCS.</p><p>
Or, translated to normal human being language, he's making it sound like he won't allow any more coal plants that cause global warming. But that's not what he's really saying at all.

<p>grist.org</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Fair enough</strong></p><p>Mainly I wanted to note that I think Edwards' campaign is being a little slippery -- they mean mandating IGCC but they leave the distinct impression that they're mandating IGCC + CCS.</p><p>
Or, translated to normal human being language, he's making it sound like he won't allow any more coal plants that cause global warming. But that's not what he's really saying at all.

<p>grist.org</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by okamichan13</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:42:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>His position on his website<p>makes it clear that he isn't just talking about IGCC but is talkiing seriously about CCS as well and would move forcefully in that direction.<p>
See the more detailed press release from a while back:<br>
<a href="http://www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20070326-cleaner-coal/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20070326-cleane ...</a></br></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>His position on his website<p>makes it clear that he isn't just talking about IGCC but is talkiing seriously about CCS as well and would move forcefully in that direction.<p>
See the more detailed press release from a while back:<br>
<a href="http://www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20070326-cleaner-coal/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20070326-cleane ...</a></br></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by David Roberts</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:42:38 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>But ...</strong></p><p>... now I'm suspicious. Look at this, from the press release: As president, Edwards will require that all new coal-fired plants be built with the required technology to capture their carbon dioxide emissions, so plants built today will be able to permanently and safely store their carbon emissions tomorrow.</p><p>
The "required technology to capture their CO2 emissions" so they can "store their carbon emissions tomorrow"?</p><p>
Still sounds like IGCC and a wish and a prayer for CCS to me.

<p>grist.org</p></p>
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				<p><strong>But ...</strong></p><p>... now I'm suspicious. Look at this, from the press release: As president, Edwards will require that all new coal-fired plants be built with the required technology to capture their carbon dioxide emissions, so plants built today will be able to permanently and safely store their carbon emissions tomorrow.</p><p>
The "required technology to capture their CO2 emissions" so they can "store their carbon emissions tomorrow"?</p><p>
Still sounds like IGCC and a wish and a prayer for CCS to me.

<p>grist.org</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by jeffgoodell</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 02:20:12 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>I'm with David</strong></p><p>There is a big difference -- a rhetorical Grand Canyon -- between supporting coal plants that are "compatible with" CCS and actually requiring them to do it. "Compatible with", from the industry POV, could mean anything -- hell, there are plenty of people in the industry who argue that conventional coal plants are "compatible with" CCS -- of course, it might take a few decades to figure out how to do it, but hey, what's the rush? &nbsp;I've been a fan of Edwards climate proposals, but I think somebody needs to press him hard for a clarification on this. &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>I'm with David</strong></p><p>There is a big difference -- a rhetorical Grand Canyon -- between supporting coal plants that are "compatible with" CCS and actually requiring them to do it. "Compatible with", from the industry POV, could mean anything -- hell, there are plenty of people in the industry who argue that conventional coal plants are "compatible with" CCS -- of course, it might take a few decades to figure out how to do it, but hey, what's the rush? &nbsp;I've been a fan of Edwards climate proposals, but I think somebody needs to press him hard for a clarification on this. &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:12:47 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Slippery politicians<p>Mainly I wanted to note that I think Edwards' campaign is being a little slippery -- they mean mandating IGCC but they leave the distinct impression that they're mandating IGCC + CCS.<p>
Yeah, well, being slippery is what he does. &nbsp;He's a politician, after all.<p>
OTOH, if you believe that his real position is to mandate IGCC, then you could turn this around: he's winning the support of the miner's union based on supporting the continued use of coal, but he's attaching a condition that would make it economically unattractive to do so, but that subtlety is probably lost on the average union worker.<p>
On the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripping_hand" rel="nofollow">gripping hand, Jeff Goodell is right: there are ways, at least in theory, to capture carbon from old-style plants. &nbsp;So it's important to clarify exactly what Edwards is talking about here. &nbsp;If he means IGCC + hypothetical future carbon capture, that's at least something. &nbsp;If he means purely theoretical future carbon capture from any old coal plant, then he's really saying nothing at all, and is just painting green over an old black heart.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Slippery politicians<p>Mainly I wanted to note that I think Edwards' campaign is being a little slippery -- they mean mandating IGCC but they leave the distinct impression that they're mandating IGCC + CCS.<p>
Yeah, well, being slippery is what he does. &nbsp;He's a politician, after all.<p>
OTOH, if you believe that his real position is to mandate IGCC, then you could turn this around: he's winning the support of the miner's union based on supporting the continued use of coal, but he's attaching a condition that would make it economically unattractive to do so, but that subtlety is probably lost on the average union worker.<p>
On the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripping_hand" rel="nofollow">gripping hand, Jeff Goodell is right: there are ways, at least in theory, to capture carbon from old-style plants. &nbsp;So it's important to clarify exactly what Edwards is talking about here. &nbsp;If he means IGCC + hypothetical future carbon capture, that's at least something. &nbsp;If he means purely theoretical future carbon capture from any old coal plant, then he's really saying nothing at all, and is just painting green over an old black heart.</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by okamichan13</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:05:48 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>The UMWA<p>has a press release up on this:<br>
<a href="http://www.umwa.org/pressreleases/sep07/090307.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.umwa.org/pressreleases/sep07/090307.shtml<p>
note the paragraph related to climate change<p>
seems to be the beginnings at least of a workable coalition here if its done right. And note that the press release is also focused on saftey and how the industry has been regulated. And Edwards yesterday released a plan on mine safety:<p>
<a href="http://www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20070905-mine-safety/" rel="nofollow">http://www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20070905-mine-s ...<p>
Its important to keep in mind that the coal industry isn't monolithic - unions and mining executives aren't going to be on the same side on a lot of these issues. And it seems very doubtful Edwards is going to get much support at all from the corporations themselves especially with his outright rejection of liquid coal subsidies. To me that's a good thing and indicitive of where Edwards is going with this. Seems like he's getting ready for a big fight if can win.<p>
So his language regarding CCS might be a bit slippery, but keep in mind he isn't saying things that most coal enthusiasts are going to be too thrilled with. In fact just the opposite on a broad range of issues.</p></p></a></p></p></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The UMWA<p>has a press release up on this:<br>
<a href="http://www.umwa.org/pressreleases/sep07/090307.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.umwa.org/pressreleases/sep07/090307.shtml<p>
note the paragraph related to climate change<p>
seems to be the beginnings at least of a workable coalition here if its done right. And note that the press release is also focused on saftey and how the industry has been regulated. And Edwards yesterday released a plan on mine safety:<p>
<a href="http://www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20070905-mine-safety/" rel="nofollow">http://www.johnedwards.com/news/headlines/20070905-mine-s ...<p>
Its important to keep in mind that the coal industry isn't monolithic - unions and mining executives aren't going to be on the same side on a lot of these issues. And it seems very doubtful Edwards is going to get much support at all from the corporations themselves especially with his outright rejection of liquid coal subsidies. To me that's a good thing and indicitive of where Edwards is going with this. Seems like he's getting ready for a big fight if can win.<p>
So his language regarding CCS might be a bit slippery, but keep in mind he isn't saying things that most coal enthusiasts are going to be too thrilled with. In fact just the opposite on a broad range of issues.</p></p></a></p></p></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by mihan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:38:53 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Correction</strong></p><p>I believe that, according to Grist, coal is the sole enemy of the human race, not merely one of several.</p>
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				<p><strong>Correction</strong></p><p>I believe that, according to Grist, coal is the sole enemy of the human race, not merely one of several.</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by ldasteelworker</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:01:35 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>The Disconnect...<p>What many are missing here is the vast disconnect between the many Local Unions and the enlightened leadership of the International Union. What the International Union says and does is often not what the many of the membership and/or Local Union leaders say and do, including whom they vote for...<p>
There is a lot of educating necessary on this and other environmental topics concerning both the public and labor. <p>
Which is why I continue to despise the perpetuation of the industry's Jobs vs. Environment myth in the media without any facts to support their claims/threats nor any countervailing evidence ever being presented to "balance" the stories...<p>
See Also: <p>
The Blue/Green Alliance <br>
( <a href="http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/2650.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/2650.php )<p>
What is the Blue/Green Alliance?<br>
( <a href="http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/3589.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/3589.php )<p>
The 11th Hour - documentary<br>
( <a href="http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/4151.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/4151.php )</a></br></p></a></br></p></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The Disconnect...<p>What many are missing here is the vast disconnect between the many Local Unions and the enlightened leadership of the International Union. What the International Union says and does is often not what the many of the membership and/or Local Union leaders say and do, including whom they vote for...<p>
There is a lot of educating necessary on this and other environmental topics concerning both the public and labor. <p>
Which is why I continue to despise the perpetuation of the industry's Jobs vs. Environment myth in the media without any facts to support their claims/threats nor any countervailing evidence ever being presented to "balance" the stories...<p>
See Also: <p>
The Blue/Green Alliance <br>
( <a href="http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/2650.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/2650.php )<p>
What is the Blue/Green Alliance?<br>
( <a href="http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/3589.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/3589.php )<p>
The 11th Hour - documentary<br>
( <a href="http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/4151.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.usw.org/usw/program/content/4151.php )</a></br></p></a></br></p></a></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by okamichan13</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 06:19:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>Thank you for the links</strong></p><p>The Blue-Green alliance is a good example of what I think Edwards has in mind and also how unions are looking at this issue as win/win.</p>
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				<p><strong>Thank you for the links</strong></p><p>The Blue-Green alliance is a good example of what I think Edwards has in mind and also how unions are looking at this issue as win/win.</p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by stopwar</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:57:22 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/edwards-the-mine-workers-union/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>Edwards and mineworkers</strong></p><p>I don't find the mineworkers' endorsement of Edwards in conflict with his position on coal. &nbsp;He is clearly the strongest candidate for organized labor and is getting lots of other union endorsements. </p><p>
I don't understand how IGCC works, or doesn't, or hasn't been proven to, but it seems that if coal (and the UMW)have a future it has to be through some new technology. &nbsp;So why not support the candidate who is most strongly calling for that, especially if that candidate is also strongly pro-labor? &nbsp;</p><p>
(From my perspective, I worry less about the candidates who are hoping that IGCC works, or at least works better, than I do about those who are willing to build new nuclear plants and hope "American ingenuity" comes up with a way to deal with the waste.) </p>
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				<p><strong>Edwards and mineworkers</strong></p><p>I don't find the mineworkers' endorsement of Edwards in conflict with his position on coal. &nbsp;He is clearly the strongest candidate for organized labor and is getting lots of other union endorsements. </p><p>
I don't understand how IGCC works, or doesn't, or hasn't been proven to, but it seems that if coal (and the UMW)have a future it has to be through some new technology. &nbsp;So why not support the candidate who is most strongly calling for that, especially if that candidate is also strongly pro-labor? &nbsp;</p><p>
(From my perspective, I worry less about the candidates who are hoping that IGCC works, or at least works better, than I do about those who are willing to build new nuclear plants and hope "American ingenuity" comes up with a way to deal with the waste.) </p>
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