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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for James Lovelock&#8217;s terror masks the same old industrial-era thinking]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by charlesjustice</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:21:10 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>hope vs doom</strong></p><p>I agree with your cogent analysis. &nbsp;It is counterproductive in the extreme to go around prophesizing doom. &nbsp;Lovelock's predictions may be right or they might not be. &nbsp;The important thing is for people to get involved in solutions as soon as possible. &nbsp;Things need to be done on a grassroots level as well as on a societal level and by governments. &nbsp;Above all we cannot give up hope. </p><p>
Charles Justice &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>hope vs doom</strong></p><p>I agree with your cogent analysis. &nbsp;It is counterproductive in the extreme to go around prophesizing doom. &nbsp;Lovelock's predictions may be right or they might not be. &nbsp;The important thing is for people to get involved in solutions as soon as possible. &nbsp;Things need to be done on a grassroots level as well as on a societal level and by governments. &nbsp;Above all we cannot give up hope. </p><p>
Charles Justice &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:40:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Same as religion</strong></p><p>Not to offend anyone's beliefs, but that old duality of gloom versus doom has been around for thousands of years, often having climate change themes as well (e.g., Noah's ark). &nbsp;Many folks miss the point that large parts of the Middle East were covered in huge cypress trees - the fabled hanging gardens of Babylon might not be all that far off base. &nbsp;</p><p>
But immanent gloom versus everlasting hope, neither one really works. &nbsp;And face it, with all the wars, crappy economy, scandals, and bad stuff going on, it's not very easy to be hopeful these days, is it?</p><p>
I have repeatedly warned people against using climate change as a religion and David, sorry man, you really blew chunks on that one! &nbsp;It does not help the cause...

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Same as religion</strong></p><p>Not to offend anyone's beliefs, but that old duality of gloom versus doom has been around for thousands of years, often having climate change themes as well (e.g., Noah's ark). &nbsp;Many folks miss the point that large parts of the Middle East were covered in huge cypress trees - the fabled hanging gardens of Babylon might not be all that far off base. &nbsp;</p><p>
But immanent gloom versus everlasting hope, neither one really works. &nbsp;And face it, with all the wars, crappy economy, scandals, and bad stuff going on, it's not very easy to be hopeful these days, is it?</p><p>
I have repeatedly warned people against using climate change as a religion and David, sorry man, you really blew chunks on that one! &nbsp;It does not help the cause...

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by apsmith</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:00:41 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Learning from nature?</strong></p><p>Nature also suggests we make changes slowly - evolutionary time-scales are hundreds of thousands of years. I'm sure in that time-frame we really will have figured things out (or become extinct). In the mean-time...</p><p>
David, when you say large-scale solutions are</p><p>
"... a species of violence. One can perfectly easily envision governments embracing these solutions, diverting huge amounts of taxpayer money to enormous, politically connected industries, engaging in fraud-ridden boondoggles..."</p><p>
you seem to be rejecting out of hand organized, thoughtful, cooperative efforts at solving our problems. Is government always bad in your view?</p><p>
I realize the comments here are directed at solutions based on panic - and I agree, panic is not a good start to solving things. But that doesn't mean the solutions can be found through independent individual action without coordination. Real solutions <strong>will</strong> require state action, "a species of violence" in right-wing terms, that will involve using taxpayer money for things that not everybody agrees on. Regulations, carbon taxes, subsidies for alternatives, developing and deploying new technologies on a large scale will be essential. I seem to recall you've spoken in favor of such things before. Why descend into the rhetorical "return to nature" talk here?</p>
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				<p><strong>Learning from nature?</strong></p><p>Nature also suggests we make changes slowly - evolutionary time-scales are hundreds of thousands of years. I'm sure in that time-frame we really will have figured things out (or become extinct). In the mean-time...</p><p>
David, when you say large-scale solutions are</p><p>
"... a species of violence. One can perfectly easily envision governments embracing these solutions, diverting huge amounts of taxpayer money to enormous, politically connected industries, engaging in fraud-ridden boondoggles..."</p><p>
you seem to be rejecting out of hand organized, thoughtful, cooperative efforts at solving our problems. Is government always bad in your view?</p><p>
I realize the comments here are directed at solutions based on panic - and I agree, panic is not a good start to solving things. But that doesn't mean the solutions can be found through independent individual action without coordination. Real solutions <strong>will</strong> require state action, "a species of violence" in right-wing terms, that will involve using taxpayer money for things that not everybody agrees on. Regulations, carbon taxes, subsidies for alternatives, developing and deploying new technologies on a large scale will be essential. I seem to recall you've spoken in favor of such things before. Why descend into the rhetorical "return to nature" talk here?</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:48:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Better said than I</strong></p><p>Well I hope if there's an Inquisition or War it is of the Monty Python kind.

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Better said than I</strong></p><p>Well I hope if there's an Inquisition or War it is of the Monty Python kind.

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Matt G</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:16:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Biomimicry</strong></p><p>Is a great idea. &nbsp;Well, for science fiction at least. &nbsp;I love to imagine genetically engineered vehicles absorbing sunlight from their soft self-cleaning green skin. &nbsp;But what solutions do the biomimicry group have within the timescale of coal use and global warming impact? &nbsp;</p><p>
(oh, and nature does use metals - your blood depends on the stuff)</p><p>
That being said, I was struck by a great solution back in ~1994 in Science Magazine (I think). &nbsp;The author suggested we start building automated solar-powered self-constructing factories in the deserts that would produce solar panels. &nbsp;The author predicted we'd be able to power all of the US after a few factory generations, and then we could shift the focus of the factory to desalinization or a dozen other world-changing tasks. &nbsp;The project would be a massive undertaking, but could have been on its way to running by now if we'd jumped on it.</p>
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				<p><strong>Biomimicry</strong></p><p>Is a great idea. &nbsp;Well, for science fiction at least. &nbsp;I love to imagine genetically engineered vehicles absorbing sunlight from their soft self-cleaning green skin. &nbsp;But what solutions do the biomimicry group have within the timescale of coal use and global warming impact? &nbsp;</p><p>
(oh, and nature does use metals - your blood depends on the stuff)</p><p>
That being said, I was struck by a great solution back in ~1994 in Science Magazine (I think). &nbsp;The author suggested we start building automated solar-powered self-constructing factories in the deserts that would produce solar panels. &nbsp;The author predicted we'd be able to power all of the US after a few factory generations, and then we could shift the focus of the factory to desalinization or a dozen other world-changing tasks. &nbsp;The project would be a massive undertaking, but could have been on its way to running by now if we'd jumped on it.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by wiscidea</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:55:51 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>GMOs are another natural approach...</strong></p><p>...to solving the problem.</p><p>
Accelerate the appearance of natural variation, horizontal gene transfer, adaptation, evolution, and biodiversity.

<p>Another victim of Jean-Paul Marat's ghost and his virtual guillotine?</p></p>
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				<p><strong>GMOs are another natural approach...</strong></p><p>...to solving the problem.</p><p>
Accelerate the appearance of natural variation, horizontal gene transfer, adaptation, evolution, and biodiversity.

<p>Another victim of Jean-Paul Marat's ghost and his virtual guillotine?</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by trock</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:59:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>think of the advantages</strong></p><p>Now that the southeastern parts of the United States are going to look like the southwestern parts of the United States, those Concentrated Solar Power Plants will work in more areas. </p><p>
Gravel for grass isn't that bad, I hear it doesn't take that long to get used to it.</p>
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				<p><strong>think of the advantages</strong></p><p>Now that the southeastern parts of the United States are going to look like the southwestern parts of the United States, those Concentrated Solar Power Plants will work in more areas. </p><p>
Gravel for grass isn't that bad, I hear it doesn't take that long to get used to it.</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Sam Wells</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:02:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hah!</strong></p><p>So much for the kudzu taking over Atlanta, I was looking forward to that!

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Hah!</strong></p><p>So much for the kudzu taking over Atlanta, I was looking forward to that!

<p>Onward through the fog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by RaySmith55</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:40:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Is panic justified?</strong></p><p>I agree that Mr. Roberts' suggestions are a lot more palatable than Lovelock's. I very much want us to have more organic solutions, such as the ones Roberts suggests, to environmental problems. But is that reason to deny Lovelock's doomsaying and extreme proposals? I'm having a hard time seeing how Roberts' argument is something other than that because Lovelock's solutions are so awful and technological, his doomsaying must be wrong. This of course is not a good way to argue - I'd much rather see direct evidence that his gloom-saying is unjustified. </p>
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				<p><strong>Is panic justified?</strong></p><p>I agree that Mr. Roberts' suggestions are a lot more palatable than Lovelock's. I very much want us to have more organic solutions, such as the ones Roberts suggests, to environmental problems. But is that reason to deny Lovelock's doomsaying and extreme proposals? I'm having a hard time seeing how Roberts' argument is something other than that because Lovelock's solutions are so awful and technological, his doomsaying must be wrong. This of course is not a good way to argue - I'd much rather see direct evidence that his gloom-saying is unjustified. </p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Pathos</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:39:18 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Panic is never justified.  Strategy always is.</strong></p><p>The big problem is, we don't actually know how bad things are. &nbsp;Reports and predictions vary from "things are getting inconvenient" to, as one analyst whose name I'm forgetting put it, "<strong>OMFG we're all totally f*cked!!1!</strong>" &nbsp;And even the most widely accepted predictions have often been shown to be wrong.</p><p>
Yesterday, it was in the news that net CO2 emissions have increased 35% more than they were expected to in 2000. &nbsp;(That's 35% more increase, not an actual increase of 35%. &nbsp;That <strong>would</strong> be a cause for panic.) &nbsp;Why? &nbsp;Fuel efficiency hasn't improved like it was supposed to, and the oceans have stopped absorbing CO2 as fast as they were supposed to. &nbsp;Does that mean we're f*cked? &nbsp;Or, does it just mean we need to work a little harder?</p><p>
It seems to me that the answer is to work for the best, but prepare for the worst. &nbsp;Right now, the bulk of our effort needs to be in safe, feasible, sustainable changes we can make. &nbsp;Shift from coal to solar and wind. &nbsp;Build more fuel-efficient cars. &nbsp;Stop cutting down the g*dd*mned rainforest. &nbsp;All that stuff we all know about, and are all constantly harrassing our Congresspeople to make happen. &nbsp;(We are all harrassing our Congresspeople, or the appropriate elected representatives... &nbsp;Right?)</p><p>
But while we're doing all that, we need to prepare for the worst case scenario. &nbsp;We need to analyze every geoengineering option, every option for emergency screw-the-economy-and-our-nerves energy conservation, and every other harebrained scheme anyone comes up with. &nbsp;We need to figure out what's likely to work, what isn't likely to work, and what will be necessary to safely and effectively implement whatever option seems the most viable.</p><p>
Hopefully, none of it will be necessary. &nbsp;Hopefully, we'll move to a sustainable culture in time to stave off the worst effects, and life will be good. &nbsp;(I keep trying to start debate on things like geoengineering, but I'm really not trying to fill our atmosphere with sulfur in a blind panic, I promise. &nbsp;I love this planet, too.) &nbsp;But if it starts looking like Lovelock is right and seemingly cooler heads are wrong, won't it be useful to have a strategy other than "<strong>OMFG we're all totally f*cked!!1!</strong>"?</p>
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				<p><strong>Panic is never justified.  Strategy always is.</strong></p><p>The big problem is, we don't actually know how bad things are. &nbsp;Reports and predictions vary from "things are getting inconvenient" to, as one analyst whose name I'm forgetting put it, "<strong>OMFG we're all totally f*cked!!1!</strong>" &nbsp;And even the most widely accepted predictions have often been shown to be wrong.</p><p>
Yesterday, it was in the news that net CO2 emissions have increased 35% more than they were expected to in 2000. &nbsp;(That's 35% more increase, not an actual increase of 35%. &nbsp;That <strong>would</strong> be a cause for panic.) &nbsp;Why? &nbsp;Fuel efficiency hasn't improved like it was supposed to, and the oceans have stopped absorbing CO2 as fast as they were supposed to. &nbsp;Does that mean we're f*cked? &nbsp;Or, does it just mean we need to work a little harder?</p><p>
It seems to me that the answer is to work for the best, but prepare for the worst. &nbsp;Right now, the bulk of our effort needs to be in safe, feasible, sustainable changes we can make. &nbsp;Shift from coal to solar and wind. &nbsp;Build more fuel-efficient cars. &nbsp;Stop cutting down the g*dd*mned rainforest. &nbsp;All that stuff we all know about, and are all constantly harrassing our Congresspeople to make happen. &nbsp;(We are all harrassing our Congresspeople, or the appropriate elected representatives... &nbsp;Right?)</p><p>
But while we're doing all that, we need to prepare for the worst case scenario. &nbsp;We need to analyze every geoengineering option, every option for emergency screw-the-economy-and-our-nerves energy conservation, and every other harebrained scheme anyone comes up with. &nbsp;We need to figure out what's likely to work, what isn't likely to work, and what will be necessary to safely and effectively implement whatever option seems the most viable.</p><p>
Hopefully, none of it will be necessary. &nbsp;Hopefully, we'll move to a sustainable culture in time to stave off the worst effects, and life will be good. &nbsp;(I keep trying to start debate on things like geoengineering, but I'm really not trying to fill our atmosphere with sulfur in a blind panic, I promise. &nbsp;I love this planet, too.) &nbsp;But if it starts looking like Lovelock is right and seemingly cooler heads are wrong, won't it be useful to have a strategy other than "<strong>OMFG we're all totally f*cked!!1!</strong>"?</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Charfair</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 00:59:02 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>Kudzu kwestions<p>If there are 180,000 sites for recipes on Google, why do the homeless, poor, and in debt not KNOW about eating it? If kudzu makes ozone, nitrogen and oxygen, why are our county governments poisoning it, and then not putting signs up that it is poisoned? If cogon grass is more invasive than kudzu, why even spend time worrying about kudzu when it has more uses during drought and famine than grasses do and is more nutritious than corn and much easier to grow? We have people planning to make ethanol (moonshine) out of kudzu as well as corn. Cogon grass for ethanol? Doesn't it make sense to go after cogon grass with back hoes so that we get rid of something taking away our biodiversity rather than something more nutritious than many foods (like kudzu which is very nutritious) and then use the cogon grass as a fuel source?

<p>Charlotte Fairchild
<a href="http://kduzus.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://kduzus.blogspot.com
<a href="http://fprayers.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://fprayers.blogspot.com 
<a href="http://icaco.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://icaco.blogspot.com</a></a></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Kudzu kwestions<p>If there are 180,000 sites for recipes on Google, why do the homeless, poor, and in debt not KNOW about eating it? If kudzu makes ozone, nitrogen and oxygen, why are our county governments poisoning it, and then not putting signs up that it is poisoned? If cogon grass is more invasive than kudzu, why even spend time worrying about kudzu when it has more uses during drought and famine than grasses do and is more nutritious than corn and much easier to grow? We have people planning to make ethanol (moonshine) out of kudzu as well as corn. Cogon grass for ethanol? Doesn't it make sense to go after cogon grass with back hoes so that we get rid of something taking away our biodiversity rather than something more nutritious than many foods (like kudzu which is very nutritious) and then use the cogon grass as a fuel source?

<p>Charlotte Fairchild
<a href="http://kduzus.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://kduzus.blogspot.com
<a href="http://fprayers.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://fprayers.blogspot.com 
<a href="http://icaco.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://icaco.blogspot.com</a></a></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by wiscidea</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 05:37:14 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>ozone and nitrogen<p>"If kudzu makes ozone, nitrogen and oxygen, why are our county governments poisoning it...?"<p>
Ozone:<p>
We want ozone in the upper atmosphere to protect the biosphere from ultraviolet radiation, We do not want it at ground level, where is is a severe health hazard. But does kudzu produce more ozone than other plants?<p>
Nitrogen:<p>
Excess fixed nitrogen in the soil somehow contributes to global warming. I can find out more about this for you. Maybe someone else can help. I read abiout it a while ago and not have the article with me.<p>
Also, adding fixed nitrogen to ecosystems not adapted to it can dramatically alter the microbial and plant communities and, therefore, dramatically effect biodiversity. For example, when an aggressive Eurasian plant that fixes nitrogen is added to a North American prairie, it "improves" conditions for other Eurasian plants which displaces native plants -- and all the insects and other animals dependent on them -- adapted to soil low in nitrogen.<p>
See...<p>
<a href="http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/1996/A/199600591.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/1996/A/1996005 ...<p>
... for a little info about this.<p>
By the way, the county should label the sprayed areas. Must be trying to save money.

<p>Another victim of Jean-Paul Marat's ghost and his virtual guillotine?</p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>ozone and nitrogen<p>"If kudzu makes ozone, nitrogen and oxygen, why are our county governments poisoning it...?"<p>
Ozone:<p>
We want ozone in the upper atmosphere to protect the biosphere from ultraviolet radiation, We do not want it at ground level, where is is a severe health hazard. But does kudzu produce more ozone than other plants?<p>
Nitrogen:<p>
Excess fixed nitrogen in the soil somehow contributes to global warming. I can find out more about this for you. Maybe someone else can help. I read abiout it a while ago and not have the article with me.<p>
Also, adding fixed nitrogen to ecosystems not adapted to it can dramatically alter the microbial and plant communities and, therefore, dramatically effect biodiversity. For example, when an aggressive Eurasian plant that fixes nitrogen is added to a North American prairie, it "improves" conditions for other Eurasian plants which displaces native plants -- and all the insects and other animals dependent on them -- adapted to soil low in nitrogen.<p>
See...<p>
<a href="http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/1996/A/199600591.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/1996/A/1996005 ...<p>
... for a little info about this.<p>
By the way, the county should label the sprayed areas. Must be trying to save money.

<p>Another victim of Jean-Paul Marat's ghost and his virtual guillotine?</p></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by wiscidea</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 05:43:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/dont-panic/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>nitrogen<p>Here's a blurb about why excess nitrogen is a problem...<p>
<a href="http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/nitrogenthebadguyofglobalwarming1160583306/" rel="nofollow">http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/n ...<p>
So, not only is the carbon cycle being thrown out of kilter by human activity. The nitrogen cycle is being thrown out of kilter by our tendency to manufacture fertilizer and/or plant vast fields of legumes. If high levels of CO2 in the atmosphere stimulate the growth of wild plants that fix nitrogen, we can look forward to even more global warming.... yahoo...

<p>Another victim of Jean-Paul Marat's ghost and his virtual guillotine?</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>nitrogen<p>Here's a blurb about why excess nitrogen is a problem...<p>
<a href="http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/nitrogenthebadguyofglobalwarming1160583306/" rel="nofollow">http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/articles/article/n ...<p>
So, not only is the carbon cycle being thrown out of kilter by human activity. The nitrogen cycle is being thrown out of kilter by our tendency to manufacture fertilizer and/or plant vast fields of legumes. If high levels of CO2 in the atmosphere stimulate the growth of wild plants that fix nitrogen, we can look forward to even more global warming.... yahoo...

<p>Another victim of Jean-Paul Marat's ghost and his virtual guillotine?</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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