<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Déjà nuke]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by GRLCowan http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:29:21 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/1 Be the change you wish to see in the world

Not being antinuclear, one could start saying things like, loan guarantees aren't subsidies; decades of harmlessness are not evidence of danger; a silver bullet can be identified by the flinching of vampires when they see it. Or something like that.

Let the baby light matches in the fuel storage room!

]]> Be the change you wish to see in the world

Not being antinuclear, one could start saying things like, loan guarantees aren't subsidies; decades of harmlessness are not evidence of danger; a silver bullet can be identified by the flinching of vampires when they see it. Or something like that.

Let the baby light matches in the fuel storage room!

]]> Comment #2 by Solarspike http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:30:40 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/2 Nuke revival

I was thrown out of a pro nuke panel discussion at the University of Colorado last month for offering the moral arguments against nuclear power.

If you want to know how much "progress" is being made in the nuclear power revival just check out the headlines http://www.energy-daily.com/Civil_Nuclear_Energy.html

I count thirty countries with plans for developing new nuclear power plants. Last month when Bush was in Turkey he said the proliferation issues had be solved.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0328/p07s03-woam.html

FARC acquired uranium, says Colombia
Sixty six pounds of uranium was for a 'dirty bomb,'

I guess maybe his statement was a little premature.

"No degree of prosperity could justify the accumulation of large
amounts of highly toxic substances which nobody knows how to make safe
and which remain an incalculable danger to the whole of creation for
historical or even geological ages. To do such a thing is a
transgression against life itself, a transgression infinitely more
serious than any crime ever perpetrated by man. The idea that a
civilization could sustain itself on the basis of such a transgression
is an ethical, spiritual and metaphysical monstrosity. It means
conducting the economic affairs of man as if people really did not
matter at all."
E. F. Schumacher Small is Beautiful 1973

It is a sad and unfortunate thing that we as a society are even having
this discussion. Nuclear power, along with its even more evil
joined-at-the-hip twin, nuclear weapons, are exhibit #1 in the reasons
why our species doesn't even deserve to exist on this planet (and may
not for much longer if we don't wake up).
 There is a failure of responsibility not just for the morally
challenged nuclear advocates (this is giving them the benefit of the
doubt that they are not actually intent on the evil that is the likely
result of their work) who are still proposing this insanity but for
the institutes of higher education who do not provide scientists with
any education in values, morals and ethics. By simply turning these
highly educated people loose on the world to create without conscience
is unacceptable and dangerous in the extreme. A society lives by it's
values and the educational institutions are failing society. When will
this change?
 It seems that scientists often fall into thinking that if an idea
does not violate the laws of physics, and that we can do the
engineering to create it, and we have government tax money (so even
the economics don't have to work), that such an idea should be
pursued. They seem incapable of questioning assumptions much less of
understanding the ethics and morality of their work. Simply because
they have learned some tricks of physics they never seem to wonder if
these concepts might violate the laws of nature or the laws of any
higher metaphysical reality.
 Many very well educated people are apparently not smart enough to
act in their own best interests. Advocates of any nonrenewable
environmentally destructive thermal power plant technology, either
coal or nuclear, have failed to question the basic assumptions of our
energy hungry society. Does it make any sense to go on up the ever
increasing energy use curve at any cost?  The answer for those who
cannot tell the difference between right and wrong is "Of course it
does not."
 Nuclear advocates such as Patrick Moore seem to flaunt their
inability to understand ethics by readily providing disinformation,
illogical arguments and outright lies in support of their cause. In
Mr. Moore's well known article Going Nuclear: A Green Makes the Case
he states that only  56 people died from the Chernobyl melt down. He
fails to mention the 50,000 children who are dying of thyroid cancer
from the radiation released by that nuclear disaster.
 We need not pursue dangerous and destructive technologies to meet
our energy needs. There is 15,000 times more renewable energy resource
available than the amount of energy we presently use every day.
Renewable energy technology is available to harvest this clean energy
and safely meet all our needs and at less cost.





















































]]> Nuke revival

I was thrown out of a pro nuke panel discussion at the University of Colorado last month for offering the moral arguments against nuclear power.

If you want to know how much "progress" is being made in the nuclear power revival just check out the headlines http://www.energy-daily.com/Civil_Nuclear_Energy.html

I count thirty countries with plans for developing new nuclear power plants. Last month when Bush was in Turkey he said the proliferation issues had be solved.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0328/p07s03-woam.html

FARC acquired uranium, says Colombia
Sixty six pounds of uranium was for a 'dirty bomb,'

I guess maybe his statement was a little premature.

"No degree of prosperity could justify the accumulation of large
amounts of highly toxic substances which nobody knows how to make safe
and which remain an incalculable danger to the whole of creation for
historical or even geological ages. To do such a thing is a
transgression against life itself, a transgression infinitely more
serious than any crime ever perpetrated by man. The idea that a
civilization could sustain itself on the basis of such a transgression
is an ethical, spiritual and metaphysical monstrosity. It means
conducting the economic affairs of man as if people really did not
matter at all."
E. F. Schumacher Small is Beautiful 1973

It is a sad and unfortunate thing that we as a society are even having
this discussion. Nuclear power, along with its even more evil
joined-at-the-hip twin, nuclear weapons, are exhibit #1 in the reasons
why our species doesn't even deserve to exist on this planet (and may
not for much longer if we don't wake up).
 There is a failure of responsibility not just for the morally
challenged nuclear advocates (this is giving them the benefit of the
doubt that they are not actually intent on the evil that is the likely
result of their work) who are still proposing this insanity but for
the institutes of higher education who do not provide scientists with
any education in values, morals and ethics. By simply turning these
highly educated people loose on the world to create without conscience
is unacceptable and dangerous in the extreme. A society lives by it's
values and the educational institutions are failing society. When will
this change?
 It seems that scientists often fall into thinking that if an idea
does not violate the laws of physics, and that we can do the
engineering to create it, and we have government tax money (so even
the economics don't have to work), that such an idea should be
pursued. They seem incapable of questioning assumptions much less of
understanding the ethics and morality of their work. Simply because
they have learned some tricks of physics they never seem to wonder if
these concepts might violate the laws of nature or the laws of any
higher metaphysical reality.
 Many very well educated people are apparently not smart enough to
act in their own best interests. Advocates of any nonrenewable
environmentally destructive thermal power plant technology, either
coal or nuclear, have failed to question the basic assumptions of our
energy hungry society. Does it make any sense to go on up the ever
increasing energy use curve at any cost?  The answer for those who
cannot tell the difference between right and wrong is "Of course it
does not."
 Nuclear advocates such as Patrick Moore seem to flaunt their
inability to understand ethics by readily providing disinformation,
illogical arguments and outright lies in support of their cause. In
Mr. Moore's well known article Going Nuclear: A Green Makes the Case
he states that only  56 people died from the Chernobyl melt down. He
fails to mention the 50,000 children who are dying of thyroid cancer
from the radiation released by that nuclear disaster.
 We need not pursue dangerous and destructive technologies to meet
our energy needs. There is 15,000 times more renewable energy resource
available than the amount of energy we presently use every day.
Renewable energy technology is available to harvest this clean energy
and safely meet all our needs and at less cost.





















































]]> Comment #3 by Pangolin http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:55:00 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/3 Don't Panic

The reported support for nuclear power in California consists entirely of the governator and one whacko republican state legislator in Fresno. Just the one mind you.

Meanwhile we're putting solar panels on outhouses and bus-stops out here. Even the republicans are quietly outfitting thier country manses with solar power and geo-exchange HVAC because the power grid has been just a tad more unreliable lately.

They've lost and they know it.

Put the Carbon Back

]]> Don't Panic

The reported support for nuclear power in California consists entirely of the governator and one whacko republican state legislator in Fresno. Just the one mind you.

Meanwhile we're putting solar panels on outhouses and bus-stops out here. Even the republicans are quietly outfitting thier country manses with solar power and geo-exchange HVAC because the power grid has been just a tad more unreliable lately.

They've lost and they know it.

Put the Carbon Back

]]> Comment #4 by Tasermons Partner http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:35:39 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/4 Hmm...

because carbon dioxide is now the most dangerous pollution and it is endangering the natural environment,"

I would personally say that's not quite true, I'd say GHGs as a whole are the most dangerous (on a world-wide, long-term, scale) pollution.  Not just CO2 in particular.

]]> Hmm...

because carbon dioxide is now the most dangerous pollution and it is endangering the natural environment,"

I would personally say that's not quite true, I'd say GHGs as a whole are the most dangerous (on a world-wide, long-term, scale) pollution.  Not just CO2 in particular.

]]> Comment #5 by KenG http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:36:00 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/5 Disinformation?

Solarspike, maybe you should fact check yourself.

The FARC Uranium was depleted Uranium. You can't make a dirty bomb from something that has no significant radioactivity. What were they doing with it? Who knows? Boat anchors maybe?

50,000 children dying of thyroid cancer? Over 20 years after the event, 9 of the 56 deaths were children with thyroid cancer. The conservative estimate is that another 4000 cases of thyroid cancer could occur but, since it is very curable, the number of deaths would be expected to result. Still a grim result but exaggerating by a 1000 times or more is not credible.

]]> Disinformation?

Solarspike, maybe you should fact check yourself.

The FARC Uranium was depleted Uranium. You can't make a dirty bomb from something that has no significant radioactivity. What were they doing with it? Who knows? Boat anchors maybe?

50,000 children dying of thyroid cancer? Over 20 years after the event, 9 of the 56 deaths were children with thyroid cancer. The conservative estimate is that another 4000 cases of thyroid cancer could occur but, since it is very curable, the number of deaths would be expected to result. Still a grim result but exaggerating by a 1000 times or more is not credible.

]]> Comment #6 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:56:29 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/6 Nuclear zombies

The cure for this contagion is economic.

Even if it can be redesigned, tested, and proven safe, taking at least 10 years, it would still be many times more expensive than renewables and conservation and smart grid technology.

But let them try a few test reactors, in a remote, already contaminated area they already wrecked with radiation.  There are many.

Give them a chance to put up or shut up.  but no new permits for old, proven unsafe technology.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Nuclear zombies

The cure for this contagion is economic.

Even if it can be redesigned, tested, and proven safe, taking at least 10 years, it would still be many times more expensive than renewables and conservation and smart grid technology.

But let them try a few test reactors, in a remote, already contaminated area they already wrecked with radiation.  There are many.

Give them a chance to put up or shut up.  but no new permits for old, proven unsafe technology.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #7 by pmoore2222 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:17:56 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/7 At least one environmental activist.

You could actually use any one of the 9000+ members of Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy, founded by Bruno Comby, PhD of Paris France. No member of the public has ever been injured by an accident in 50 years at any nuclear plant in the West, including Three Mile Island. 1.2 million people die in car accidents EVERY YEAR. The anti-nuclear movement is politically opportunistic and is based on manufactured fear. Get a life.

Grow More Trees, Use More Wood

]]> At least one environmental activist.

You could actually use any one of the 9000+ members of Environmentalists for Nuclear Energy, founded by Bruno Comby, PhD of Paris France. No member of the public has ever been injured by an accident in 50 years at any nuclear plant in the West, including Three Mile Island. 1.2 million people die in car accidents EVERY YEAR. The anti-nuclear movement is politically opportunistic and is based on manufactured fear. Get a life.

Grow More Trees, Use More Wood

]]> Comment #8 by GRLCowan http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:06:14 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/8 More wood than that at which a stick can be shaken

No member of the public has ever been injured by an accident in 50 years at any nuclear plant in the West, including Three Mile Island. 1.2 million people die in car accidents EVERY YEAR.

Not really alternatives, or not yet, anyway. When we have nuclear motor fuel plants, and cars that are thus indirectly nuclear-powered, there's a chance the fuel will (1) be safer, as I propose in my sig line, and (2) not be sin-taxed, so governments won't be so hellbent on getting people to drive fast, far, and with frequent hard stops. That will be another safety gain.

The anti-nuclear movement is politically opportunistic and is based on manufactured fear. Get a life.

But why do the dark forces manufacture dissent? Because they tax fossil fuel. They tax it at a rate equivalent to thousands of dollars per pound U3O8. Do you know a low-level civil servant who is strongly pro-nuclear? Chances are he'll soon be looking for a private-sector gig. How will he get a life then? He'll have lost the one he had.

Let the baby light matches in the fuel storage room!

]]> More wood than that at which a stick can be shaken

No member of the public has ever been injured by an accident in 50 years at any nuclear plant in the West, including Three Mile Island. 1.2 million people die in car accidents EVERY YEAR.

Not really alternatives, or not yet, anyway. When we have nuclear motor fuel plants, and cars that are thus indirectly nuclear-powered, there's a chance the fuel will (1) be safer, as I propose in my sig line, and (2) not be sin-taxed, so governments won't be so hellbent on getting people to drive fast, far, and with frequent hard stops. That will be another safety gain.

The anti-nuclear movement is politically opportunistic and is based on manufactured fear. Get a life.

But why do the dark forces manufacture dissent? Because they tax fossil fuel. They tax it at a rate equivalent to thousands of dollars per pound U3O8. Do you know a low-level civil servant who is strongly pro-nuclear? Chances are he'll soon be looking for a private-sector gig. How will he get a life then? He'll have lost the one he had.

Let the baby light matches in the fuel storage room!

]]> Comment #9 by Tasermons Partner http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:23:23 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/9 Same ol'...

No member of the public has ever been injured by an accident in 50 years at any nuclear plant in the West,

To my knowledge (which is limited, mind ya), no member of the public has ever been injured in an accident at any solar, geothermal, or wind-power facility in the West.

And I'm willin' to bet that accidents amongst workers are less at those renewables than at nuclear, even when size and scale differences are taken into account.

]]> Same ol'...

No member of the public has ever been injured by an accident in 50 years at any nuclear plant in the West,

To my knowledge (which is limited, mind ya), no member of the public has ever been injured in an accident at any solar, geothermal, or wind-power facility in the West.

And I'm willin' to bet that accidents amongst workers are less at those renewables than at nuclear, even when size and scale differences are taken into account.

]]> Comment #10 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:29:18 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/10 Admit it or...

Admit nuclear power is unsafe and impractical in it's present form, then maybe you get another chance to try and make it work.

But if you won't admit the problems, you can't fix them.  So no more chances.  Take it or leave it.

That's the kind of negotiating position the next democratic president ought to take.  And no more subsidies or liability and tax breaks.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Admit it or...

Admit nuclear power is unsafe and impractical in it's present form, then maybe you get another chance to try and make it work.

But if you won't admit the problems, you can't fix them.  So no more chances.  Take it or leave it.

That's the kind of negotiating position the next democratic president ought to take.  And no more subsidies or liability and tax breaks.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #11 by KenG http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/ Sun, 30 Mar 2008 23:16:20 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dj-nuke/11 Wind Safety

I never know how much to rely on Wikipedia, but this entry indicates several public fatality events associated with wind generators - parachute and plane crashes.

Industrial accidents (to workers) is an order of magnitude higher in solar and wind facilities than in nuclear facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power#Safety

]]> Wind Safety

I never know how much to rely on Wikipedia, but this entry indicates several public fatality events associated with wind generators - parachute and plane crashes.

Industrial accidents (to workers) is an order of magnitude higher in solar and wind facilities than in nuclear facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power#Safety

]]>