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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Can locavores embrace a truly place-based agriculture?]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:23:37 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Moving In The Right Direction</strong></p><p>While I have long been an advocate of humans returning to hunting/gathering and abandoning agriculture as ecologically destructive and promoting gross overpopulation, the ideas expressed in this post are excellent. &nbsp;Finally, a farmer who goes way beyond organic and recognizes the immense ecological harms that manipulation of the Earth causes!</p><p>
And Stephanie is correct, the farmers can't do it alone. &nbsp;People need to change their expectations and diets to accommodate the ecosystems in which they live. &nbsp;As I said a short while ago in another thread, if you want to eat bananas, go live in South America. &nbsp;We should all be willing to live off what grows in our own ecosystems without totally destroying them by growing things that require massive amounts of irrigation or severe changes of the land.</p>
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				<p><strong>Moving In The Right Direction</strong></p><p>While I have long been an advocate of humans returning to hunting/gathering and abandoning agriculture as ecologically destructive and promoting gross overpopulation, the ideas expressed in this post are excellent. &nbsp;Finally, a farmer who goes way beyond organic and recognizes the immense ecological harms that manipulation of the Earth causes!</p><p>
And Stephanie is correct, the farmers can't do it alone. &nbsp;People need to change their expectations and diets to accommodate the ecosystems in which they live. &nbsp;As I said a short while ago in another thread, if you want to eat bananas, go live in South America. &nbsp;We should all be willing to live off what grows in our own ecosystems without totally destroying them by growing things that require massive amounts of irrigation or severe changes of the land.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:09:05 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Where The Buffalo Roam</strong></p><p><br>
If this was really the "native" landscape, wouldn't it be filled with buffalo that the locals would be gorging on daily?</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Where The Buffalo Roam</strong></p><p><br>
If this was really the "native" landscape, wouldn't it be filled with buffalo that the locals would be gorging on daily?</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:57:08 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>The Anasazi  civilization experienced famine<p>It is likely that their population had grown too large to be fed once drier conditions returned. Cannibalism was briefly practiced as their civilization collapsed.<p>
<a href="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_11_158/ai_65860845" rel="nofollow">http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_11_158/ai_ ...

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The Anasazi  civilization experienced famine<p>It is likely that their population had grown too large to be fed once drier conditions returned. Cannibalism was briefly practiced as their civilization collapsed.<p>
<a href="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_11_158/ai_65860845" rel="nofollow">http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_11_158/ai_ ...

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Stonehead</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 19:45:29 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>You can lead a horse to water, but...</strong></p><p>We work a croft in Scotland on a site that's had human occupation for at least 2,000 years. Our buildings have been here for 200 years, the local kirk has a headstone dating to the early 1100s, and the stone circle across the road from our croft dates to the Neolithic.</p><p>
We're largely unmechanised--I've just spent a couple of days mowing with a scythe--but produce sufficient meat (pork, lamb and chicken), vegetables, soft fruit and tree fruit to be reasonably self-sufficient. We also shoot, trap and forage from the wild larder.</p><p>
In fact, we do so well that we often have seasonal surpluses that we had thought we could swap, barter or sell within our local community. But we've found that most people hereabouts don't want local produce--they prefer the "clean", "hygienic", uniform and packaged produce from supermarkets.</p><p>
We sell eggs and vegetables to people who live in the city an hour's drive away, but almost none to the people in our village. We sell pork and chicken to people who live three hours away, but only two people in the village will buy it. We can trade jams, pickles, chutneys, preserves, saved seeds and the like with people all around the country, but not to locals.</p><p>
What makes it even more peculiar is that the locals readily concede we're not doing anything remotely "hippyish"--we're simply doing what they or their parents did until 20-30 years ago.</p><p>
Farms hereabouts used to be mixed family concerns, with cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, barley, oats, potatoes, vegetables and fruit. The fields were worked in rotation, with few synthetic chemical inputs, using seeds of plants that grew well in our conditions.</p><p>
Now, the pig sties are empty, the field housing is rotting in a corner, the vegetables are long gone and the fruit trees grubbed out. Now, sheep and cattle are intensively produced for the supermarkets, heavily fertilised and sprayed barley is grown for the brewers, and even more intensively sprayed oil seed rape is grown for vegetable oil/biodiesel. The farming families eat processed burgers and ready meals, while they lament how little they get for what they produce.</p><p>
It's a funny old world.</p>
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				<p><strong>You can lead a horse to water, but...</strong></p><p>We work a croft in Scotland on a site that's had human occupation for at least 2,000 years. Our buildings have been here for 200 years, the local kirk has a headstone dating to the early 1100s, and the stone circle across the road from our croft dates to the Neolithic.</p><p>
We're largely unmechanised--I've just spent a couple of days mowing with a scythe--but produce sufficient meat (pork, lamb and chicken), vegetables, soft fruit and tree fruit to be reasonably self-sufficient. We also shoot, trap and forage from the wild larder.</p><p>
In fact, we do so well that we often have seasonal surpluses that we had thought we could swap, barter or sell within our local community. But we've found that most people hereabouts don't want local produce--they prefer the "clean", "hygienic", uniform and packaged produce from supermarkets.</p><p>
We sell eggs and vegetables to people who live in the city an hour's drive away, but almost none to the people in our village. We sell pork and chicken to people who live three hours away, but only two people in the village will buy it. We can trade jams, pickles, chutneys, preserves, saved seeds and the like with people all around the country, but not to locals.</p><p>
What makes it even more peculiar is that the locals readily concede we're not doing anything remotely "hippyish"--we're simply doing what they or their parents did until 20-30 years ago.</p><p>
Farms hereabouts used to be mixed family concerns, with cattle, sheep, pigs, chickens, barley, oats, potatoes, vegetables and fruit. The fields were worked in rotation, with few synthetic chemical inputs, using seeds of plants that grew well in our conditions.</p><p>
Now, the pig sties are empty, the field housing is rotting in a corner, the vegetables are long gone and the fruit trees grubbed out. Now, sheep and cattle are intensively produced for the supermarkets, heavily fertilised and sprayed barley is grown for the brewers, and even more intensively sprayed oil seed rape is grown for vegetable oil/biodiesel. The farming families eat processed burgers and ready meals, while they lament how little they get for what they produce.</p><p>
It's a funny old world.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Tom Philpott</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:54:06 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>BioD,<p>Point taken. But only the silliest "locavores" (if any) dream of eating 100 percent locally. In Stephanie's vision of place-based agriculture,each region would produce the low-input crops suited to its microclimates; if a major crop failed in any given place, food from other places could flow in. It's actually a very robust model -- much more than our current one, with its "salad bowl" (ie, 2-3 counties in California), its grain belt, its hog concentrations (a few counties in Iowa and NC), etc, etc.

<p><a href="http://www.grist.org/topic/Victual_Reality" rel="nofollow">Victual Reality</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>BioD,<p>Point taken. But only the silliest "locavores" (if any) dream of eating 100 percent locally. In Stephanie's vision of place-based agriculture,each region would produce the low-input crops suited to its microclimates; if a major crop failed in any given place, food from other places could flow in. It's actually a very robust model -- much more than our current one, with its "salad bowl" (ie, 2-3 counties in California), its grain belt, its hog concentrations (a few counties in Iowa and NC), etc, etc.

<p><a href="http://www.grist.org/topic/Victual_Reality" rel="nofollow">Victual Reality</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:57:03 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>True that, Tom<p>Interestingly enough, because the Anasazi did not have the wheel or domesticated work animals, significant trade with distant partners was not in their solution set.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>True that, Tom<p>Interestingly enough, because the Anasazi did not have the wheel or domesticated work animals, significant trade with distant partners was not in their solution set.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Stephanie Ogburn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:15:07 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Ancestral Puebloan trade</strong></p><p>I don't claim to be even close to an archaeologist, but according to what I've learned since living in archaeology central (aka the Southwest), Ancestral Puebloans did have trade with far off cultures -- items such as parrot feathers from southern Mexico and seashells from the Pacific Coast have been found in the remnants of their dwellings.</p><p>
Tom encapsulated my point quite well with his comment. That is, I feel that regional production built on the ecological strengths of the area, coupled with vibrant (and fair, hopefully) trade, makes a lot of sense. A little hunting/gathering is a nice accompaniment to this, and I won't dispute the point that hunting/gathering cultures are probably more efficient per unit of effort for food gathered, but I think I'm sort of wedded to a primarily agrarian society -- it's produced a lot of things I'm rather attached to, despite its shortcomings.

<p>Stephanie</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Ancestral Puebloan trade</strong></p><p>I don't claim to be even close to an archaeologist, but according to what I've learned since living in archaeology central (aka the Southwest), Ancestral Puebloans did have trade with far off cultures -- items such as parrot feathers from southern Mexico and seashells from the Pacific Coast have been found in the remnants of their dwellings.</p><p>
Tom encapsulated my point quite well with his comment. That is, I feel that regional production built on the ecological strengths of the area, coupled with vibrant (and fair, hopefully) trade, makes a lot of sense. A little hunting/gathering is a nice accompaniment to this, and I won't dispute the point that hunting/gathering cultures are probably more efficient per unit of effort for food gathered, but I think I'm sort of wedded to a primarily agrarian society -- it's produced a lot of things I'm rather attached to, despite its shortcomings.

<p>Stephanie</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by odograph</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:11:23 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>locovores<p>I haven't been following Gristmill too closely (the banking thing has been too much of a fascination), but this seems related:<p>
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-07-28-farmers-transportation_N.htm" rel="nofollow">Fuel prices squeeze farmers at local produce markets<p>
Do you all remember the conversations we had about 100, 200 mile diets, and the efficiency of pickups (farmers) and SUVs (shoppers) converging on farmer's markets?<p>
I hate to say I told you so, but if high gas prices hit farmer's markets that is a bit of a confirmation that they are burning some gas:<p>
Franca Tantillo puts rising fuel prices in the same category as the springtime hail storm that wiped out part of her strawberry crop. Both cut into the profit she can make at the farmers markets she sells at in New York City, about 135 miles south of her farm.<p>
and <p>
"I'm a small grower," she said recently, as she stood at her table laden with $4 quarts of strawberries and other produce from her "Berried Treasures" farm in Cooks Falls, N.Y. "And I'm trying not to raise prices."<p>
... the most efficient veggies are the ones raised on kitchen scraps in the back yard (don't truck in that manure!)</p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>locovores<p>I haven't been following Gristmill too closely (the banking thing has been too much of a fascination), but this seems related:<p>
<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-07-28-farmers-transportation_N.htm" rel="nofollow">Fuel prices squeeze farmers at local produce markets<p>
Do you all remember the conversations we had about 100, 200 mile diets, and the efficiency of pickups (farmers) and SUVs (shoppers) converging on farmer's markets?<p>
I hate to say I told you so, but if high gas prices hit farmer's markets that is a bit of a confirmation that they are burning some gas:<p>
Franca Tantillo puts rising fuel prices in the same category as the springtime hail storm that wiped out part of her strawberry crop. Both cut into the profit she can make at the farmers markets she sells at in New York City, about 135 miles south of her farm.<p>
and <p>
"I'm a small grower," she said recently, as she stood at her table laden with $4 quarts of strawberries and other produce from her "Berried Treasures" farm in Cooks Falls, N.Y. "And I'm trying not to raise prices."<p>
... the most efficient veggies are the ones raised on kitchen scraps in the back yard (don't truck in that manure!)</p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by odograph</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:15:26 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>BTW</strong></p><p>This could also could be an endorsement of "just enough suburbia" ... enough for an intensive garden.</p>
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				<p><strong>BTW</strong></p><p>This could also could be an endorsement of "just enough suburbia" ... enough for an intensive garden.</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by justlou</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 03:44:29 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Bioregionalism</strong></p><p>I had not thought much about this lately, but this post refreshed the idea. &nbsp;</p><p>
Google "bioregionalism" and you will find a wealth of good references on the subject. &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>Bioregionalism</strong></p><p>I had not thought much about this lately, but this post refreshed the idea. &nbsp;</p><p>
Google "bioregionalism" and you will find a wealth of good references on the subject. &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:13:18 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Anticipating that comment, Stephanie, I used<p>the adjective "significant" when I talked about trade. All human cultures trade. Physical(as well as cultural and technical) barriers to trade make all the difference and explain in part the difficulty in ending poverty in the south where countries are landlocked and without adequate roads or major rivers to move goods.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Anticipating that comment, Stephanie, I used<p>the adjective "significant" when I talked about trade. All human cultures trade. Physical(as well as cultural and technical) barriers to trade make all the difference and explain in part the difficulty in ending poverty in the south where countries are landlocked and without adequate roads or major rivers to move goods.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:40:55 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Hunting and gathering should not be encouraged<p>in my humble opinion. It wouldn't take a whole lot of locavores collecting prickly pear and the like to wreak environmental havoc.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Hunting and gathering should not be encouraged<p>in my humble opinion. It wouldn't take a whole lot of locavores collecting prickly pear and the like to wreak environmental havoc.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:28:01 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Hunting/Gathering</strong></p><p>Just to make this clear, I do not advocate that all of the currently grossly overpopulated humans immediately abandon agriculture and switch to being hunter/gatherers. &nbsp;Doing that would probably be more immediately destructive than the current agricultural system, which is saying quite a bit.</p><p>
However, no one can seriously claim that with a human population that is low enough to be ecologically harmonious, agriculture is exponentially more harmful than hunting and gathering. &nbsp;Returning to the hunter/gatherer lifestyle should therefore be our ultimate goal, but just as humans created this mess when they began agriculture 10-12,000 years ago, it will take a very long time to be able to get back to it.</p>
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				<p><strong>Hunting/Gathering</strong></p><p>Just to make this clear, I do not advocate that all of the currently grossly overpopulated humans immediately abandon agriculture and switch to being hunter/gatherers. &nbsp;Doing that would probably be more immediately destructive than the current agricultural system, which is saying quite a bit.</p><p>
However, no one can seriously claim that with a human population that is low enough to be ecologically harmonious, agriculture is exponentially more harmful than hunting and gathering. &nbsp;Returning to the hunter/gatherer lifestyle should therefore be our ultimate goal, but just as humans created this mess when they began agriculture 10-12,000 years ago, it will take a very long time to be able to get back to it.</p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by Bart Anderson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/dispatches-from-the-fields-from-tepary-beans-to-arugula-and-back/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 03 Aug 2008 06:54:27 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Local is hot<p><b>Stephanie:  I'm not by any means advocating a return to the lifestyle of those who lived and thrived here 1,000 years ago. Why not? Sounds like a premium source of ideas and inspiration. <p>
<b>Stephanie: The big question, though, is whether the nascent locavore culture is willing to accept a local food system that grows more tiny tomatoes than beefsteaks, more melons than mesclun mix. That sort of growing would make our food system much more sustainable, but it would require a significant cultural adjustment in terms of taste. Marketing is key. A few years ago I took my wife to an upscale restaurant where we paid more than $70/plate for local cuisine. With a little imagination, the restauranteers had made something magical out of the local dishes we had taken for granted.<p>
Another example. Stinging nettles which grow as weeds in our area, are now a gourmet item.<p>
Granted, these examples are from the rich, sophisticated SF Bay Area, but the potential is there for many other areas.<p>
Another approach might be to market the local fare as being the badge of being a real native. &nbsp;<p>
It wasn't too long ago that people ate good local food. It took billions of dollars of advertising to convince people to eat processed and junk foods.

<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></b></p></b></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Local is hot<p><b>Stephanie:  I'm not by any means advocating a return to the lifestyle of those who lived and thrived here 1,000 years ago. Why not? Sounds like a premium source of ideas and inspiration. <p>
<b>Stephanie: The big question, though, is whether the nascent locavore culture is willing to accept a local food system that grows more tiny tomatoes than beefsteaks, more melons than mesclun mix. That sort of growing would make our food system much more sustainable, but it would require a significant cultural adjustment in terms of taste. Marketing is key. A few years ago I took my wife to an upscale restaurant where we paid more than $70/plate for local cuisine. With a little imagination, the restauranteers had made something magical out of the local dishes we had taken for granted.<p>
Another example. Stinging nettles which grow as weeds in our area, are now a gourmet item.<p>
Granted, these examples are from the rich, sophisticated SF Bay Area, but the potential is there for many other areas.<p>
Another approach might be to market the local fare as being the badge of being a real native. &nbsp;<p>
It wasn't too long ago that people ate good local food. It took billions of dollars of advertising to convince people to eat processed and junk foods.

<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></b></p></b></p></strong></p>
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