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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Lieberman-Warner criticism, Part 1]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Miles Grant</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:03:41 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Confused<p>You say "the democratic process demands compromise," then like ten lines later say we can't compromise. <p>
I know you don't want to compromise from a scientific perspective, but at a time when our emissions <a href="http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hWQzGPVOi1jaokoAG24HLH2tU61w" rel="nofollow">continue rising out of control, wouldn't you rather make a political compromise to get us on the path of cutting emissions now?

<p>http://www.nwf.org</p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Confused<p>You say "the democratic process demands compromise," then like ten lines later say we can't compromise. <p>
I know you don't want to compromise from a scientific perspective, but at a time when our emissions <a href="http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hWQzGPVOi1jaokoAG24HLH2tU61w" rel="nofollow">continue rising out of control, wouldn't you rather make a political compromise to get us on the path of cutting emissions now?

<p>http://www.nwf.org</p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:22:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Miles</strong></p><p>I don't say we can't compromise - I simply say that the need for compromise isn't as strong as we think. &nbsp;L-W starts from the presumption that GHG mitigation will be expensive, and therefore will impose costs on society that we must allocate around. &nbsp;This presumption implies that we must start by figuring out how to dole out the pain, which is implicitly a process of compromise. &nbsp;</p><p>
My point is that the underlying presumption (that GHG mitigation is economically painful) is flawed. &nbsp;Massive GHG reductions are possible that will generate profits - even more if we get rid of existing rules that subsidize the dirtiest sources. &nbsp;Ergo, rather than figuring out how to spread economic pain, our conversation ought to start from the perspective of maximizing economic development opportunities.</p><p>
Is there still need for compromise in a democratic process? &nbsp;Of course. &nbsp;But it's not nearly as big as L-W presumes. &nbsp;And worse, L-W is set up in a way that preferentially directs resources towards the most economically painful GHG-mitigation approache, essentially creating a self-fulfilling prophecy if enacted as currently structured. &nbsp;I'll be providing more detail on this in subsequent posts.</p>
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				<p><strong>Miles</strong></p><p>I don't say we can't compromise - I simply say that the need for compromise isn't as strong as we think. &nbsp;L-W starts from the presumption that GHG mitigation will be expensive, and therefore will impose costs on society that we must allocate around. &nbsp;This presumption implies that we must start by figuring out how to dole out the pain, which is implicitly a process of compromise. &nbsp;</p><p>
My point is that the underlying presumption (that GHG mitigation is economically painful) is flawed. &nbsp;Massive GHG reductions are possible that will generate profits - even more if we get rid of existing rules that subsidize the dirtiest sources. &nbsp;Ergo, rather than figuring out how to spread economic pain, our conversation ought to start from the perspective of maximizing economic development opportunities.</p><p>
Is there still need for compromise in a democratic process? &nbsp;Of course. &nbsp;But it's not nearly as big as L-W presumes. &nbsp;And worse, L-W is set up in a way that preferentially directs resources towards the most economically painful GHG-mitigation approache, essentially creating a self-fulfilling prophecy if enacted as currently structured. &nbsp;I'll be providing more detail on this in subsequent posts.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by ce1907</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:20:13 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>no time</strong></p><p>boil down your five most important points</p><p>
suggest legislative language for the fixes</p><p>
contact NRDC or other big enviro group, ask them to pitch it</p><p>
you have about a week to get done</p>
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				<p><strong>no time</strong></p><p>boil down your five most important points</p><p>
suggest legislative language for the fixes</p><p>
contact NRDC or other big enviro group, ask them to pitch it</p><p>
you have about a week to get done</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by hapa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:10:54 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>how scared am i?</strong></p><p>lessee</p><p>
hansen says 350's the target and we can solidly expect to capture 50 with plants, making 400 the safe peak</p><p>
wall street's itching for a new bubble to save itself from jumping out the window and L-W provides a frictionless market for hucksterism</p><p>
and you display a tin ear for whole policy, questioning the necessity of ensuring school access as part of guaranteeing education</p><p>
i can feel my chances of survival slipping away.</p>
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				<p><strong>how scared am i?</strong></p><p>lessee</p><p>
hansen says 350's the target and we can solidly expect to capture 50 with plants, making 400 the safe peak</p><p>
wall street's itching for a new bubble to save itself from jumping out the window and L-W provides a frictionless market for hucksterism</p><p>
and you display a tin ear for whole policy, questioning the necessity of ensuring school access as part of guaranteeing education</p><p>
i can feel my chances of survival slipping away.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by ce1907</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:31:08 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>you misunderstand</strong></p><p>I am not saying be quiet</p><p>
I am saying join the process</p><p>
talk when it will help most to the people writing an amended bill</p>
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				<p><strong>you misunderstand</strong></p><p>I am not saying be quiet</p><p>
I am saying join the process</p><p>
talk when it will help most to the people writing an amended bill</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by hapa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:32:41 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>*i*</strong></p><p>was talking to the post-writer person, tho.</p>
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				<p><strong>*i*</strong></p><p>was talking to the post-writer person, tho.</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:38:33 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>ce1907 &amp; hapa<p>Trust me, <a href="http://www.recycled-energy.com" rel="nofollow">we are working as hard as we can beyond this blog in DC to get this bill fixed. &nbsp;<p>
Per my post though, I don't see this as having only a week to get changes done. &nbsp;Even if this passes the Senate, it's highly unlikely to get through the House and dodge a Presidential veto this year. &nbsp;The reason for this series of posts is to outline what is good and bad about L-W so that - once we get into a political environment that is more conducive to passage of GHG legislation through both houses - we've got the details right. &nbsp;As currently formulated, the L-W details are pretty crummy. &nbsp;<p>
Hapa: to be clear, the problem with L-W is not that it seeks to lower GHG emissions. &nbsp;It is that it seeks to do so through a really complicated piece of legislation that is ultimately deeply flawed, from both an environmental and economic perspective. &nbsp;(e.g., with simplification, the bill could not only lower GHG emissions faster, but at lower net societal cost.)</p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>ce1907 &amp; hapa<p>Trust me, <a href="http://www.recycled-energy.com" rel="nofollow">we are working as hard as we can beyond this blog in DC to get this bill fixed. &nbsp;<p>
Per my post though, I don't see this as having only a week to get changes done. &nbsp;Even if this passes the Senate, it's highly unlikely to get through the House and dodge a Presidential veto this year. &nbsp;The reason for this series of posts is to outline what is good and bad about L-W so that - once we get into a political environment that is more conducive to passage of GHG legislation through both houses - we've got the details right. &nbsp;As currently formulated, the L-W details are pretty crummy. &nbsp;<p>
Hapa: to be clear, the problem with L-W is not that it seeks to lower GHG emissions. &nbsp;It is that it seeks to do so through a really complicated piece of legislation that is ultimately deeply flawed, from both an environmental and economic perspective. &nbsp;(e.g., with simplification, the bill could not only lower GHG emissions faster, but at lower net societal cost.)</p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by hapa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:41:05 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>it's interesting that you're posting here.</strong></p><p>20 years from now -- 2028 -- if i'm reading your site right, you would own generating capacity that operated with 33-50% the fossil fuel.</p><p>
did you notice that 33 and 50, they aren't zero? we're talking old plants... not compatible with CCS, right? but while there's a carbon market your facilities would be pretty profitable, right?</p><p>
i like heat capture and the short term improvement is awesome.</p><p>
but do you have a financial interest in not having the stabilization target be below current? we'd still have to phase out your plants, unless you intend to fight for continuing pollution.</p><p>
if that's true, why are you writing here?</p>
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				<p><strong>it's interesting that you're posting here.</strong></p><p>20 years from now -- 2028 -- if i'm reading your site right, you would own generating capacity that operated with 33-50% the fossil fuel.</p><p>
did you notice that 33 and 50, they aren't zero? we're talking old plants... not compatible with CCS, right? but while there's a carbon market your facilities would be pretty profitable, right?</p><p>
i like heat capture and the short term improvement is awesome.</p><p>
but do you have a financial interest in not having the stabilization target be below current? we'd still have to phase out your plants, unless you intend to fight for continuing pollution.</p><p>
if that's true, why are you writing here?</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by greenfire8</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 06:26:50 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/details-matter/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>expediency<p>Sean,<br>
We could apply your political hypothesis to Kyoto. Why havent we been a part of replacing/rearranging those cars? Actually, we have. Despite the fact we pulled out of the treaty, we do still affect its language. We have derailed talks numerous times and pushed for more "flexible" mechanisms like CDM that the financial intermediaries have been drooling over....an enormous loophole for additionality, prospecting, and ultimately, creating counterfeit reduction certificates.<p>
I'm going w/ Miles and ce1907. For the sake of political expediency and reductions today as opposed to years from now, I like Audubon, Center for International Law, Clean Water Action, Defenders of Wildlife, Earthjustice, Environment America, Environmental Defense, League of Conservation Voters, National Wildlife Federation, Natural Resources Defense Council, Ocean Conservancy, Pew Environment Group, Physicians for Social Responsibility, Sierra Club, Union of Concerned Scientists, The Wilderness Society, and World Wildlife Fund's stance.<p>
<a href="http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080312.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080312.asp<br>
</br></a></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>expediency<p>Sean,<br>
We could apply your political hypothesis to Kyoto. Why havent we been a part of replacing/rearranging those cars? Actually, we have. Despite the fact we pulled out of the treaty, we do still affect its language. We have derailed talks numerous times and pushed for more "flexible" mechanisms like CDM that the financial intermediaries have been drooling over....an enormous loophole for additionality, prospecting, and ultimately, creating counterfeit reduction certificates.<p>
I'm going w/ Miles and ce1907. For the sake of political expediency and reductions today as opposed to years from now, I like Audubon, Center for International Law, Clean Water Action, Defenders of Wildlife, Earthjustice, Environment America, Environmental Defense, League of Conservation Voters, National Wildlife Federation, Natural Resources Defense Council, Ocean Conservancy, Pew Environment Group, Physicians for Social Responsibility, Sierra Club, Union of Concerned Scientists, The Wilderness Society, and World Wildlife Fund's stance.<p>
<a href="http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080312.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.nrdc.org/media/2008/080312.asp<br>
</br></a></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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