<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Proposal to curb prices not likely to include ‘gas tax holiday’]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by bigTom http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/ Fri, 02 May 2008 14:45:58 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/1 Sounds like fairy dust.

  Since oil is growing more expensive due to supply demand, all of this is just an attempt to be seen to be doing something.

   That said, not filling the reserve during a time of high price might be a sensible move -at least if the oil price were to decrease in the future. If it keeps rising, which is a more likely outcome filling the SPR now, and selling the oil later might be a pretty good investment.

   As I am sure Gristmill readers know, the problem is not that oil products are expensive, the problem is that they have been outrageously cheap for decades, and we've acted like that was our god given birthright. But in an election year I don't think we will be hearing that.

]]> Sounds like fairy dust.

  Since oil is growing more expensive due to supply demand, all of this is just an attempt to be seen to be doing something.

   That said, not filling the reserve during a time of high price might be a sensible move -at least if the oil price were to decrease in the future. If it keeps rising, which is a more likely outcome filling the SPR now, and selling the oil later might be a pretty good investment.

   As I am sure Gristmill readers know, the problem is not that oil products are expensive, the problem is that they have been outrageously cheap for decades, and we've acted like that was our god given birthright. But in an election year I don't think we will be hearing that.

]]> Comment #2 by JChan111 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/ Fri, 02 May 2008 15:45:34 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/2 Oil Increases are Driven by Pure Speculation

Plain and simple. The root cause of the recent price spike in oil are because of speculation. (If you don't mind reading a long argument in favor of increased taxes read on ..)

Let's face it, how many of us have mutual funds that heavily invest in the energy sector?  Whether we realize it or not many Americans do. A good % of profits that oil companies are making is feeding the gains in these energy sector mutual funds in my opinion. Add to that the speculative 'greed' common during these types of run ups and we basically get what we're seeing today and then wonder what's going on. Of course worldwide demand is increasing. Of course course oil is getting harder and more expensive to find. These are also realities.

For a good perspective on this issue read this business week article: There is No Oil Shortage" by Ed Wallace.

The oil shortages today do remind me of the games of the past. Oil has once again been pegged to the 'need' to produce profit gains in my opinion. Just look at what happened today when Exxon didn't make their expected industry quarterly earnings. They still made many billions, but the market wanted even more and sold their stocks.  Why?  Probably to justify the increases already factored into the market by speculators (in my opinion).

It's very disheartening to see what we've become as a nation. Oil is making huge profits, yet not one oil company I've read about appears to be heavily investing in alternatives justified by the huge profits they are raking in. Why? For instance, during the internet boom, companies that needed new capabilities they didn't have in-house frequently bought other companies. Cisco is a good example of such a wise investor in outside technology.  Now ask yourself this. Have you even heard one peep out of an oil company doing essentially the same? Buying smaller newer and greener companies to change the energy industry and inject new ideas into the US economy?  Nope.  Why is that?  There is something fundamentally wrong when you see this sort of thing in my opinion.

My feelings are because they don't know how to invest in new R&D approaches outside of their expertise areas (oil, gas and even coal). Plain and simple. They are essentially fixated on oil supply and demand issues and stuck in operations mode most of the time.

Finding new oil wells, even drilling out at sea in deeper wells if they have to to meet the demand by consumers. Afterall, there's a refinery shortage and supply issue as reported in the news media. Correct?  Do we Americans seriously think they have the R&D 'know how' in-house to try new approaches like improved battery technology using nanotechnology or new materials science ideas from many good ideas and places across America? If they did, why aren't they doing it in a large and visible way? How many university R&D programs are being funded by wealthy oil companies? How does it stack up to profits?

We are also essentially asking oil companies and individuals who invest in oil to 'put themselves out of business' if they shift to alternative ideas.  Gee, I wonder how many would willingly sign up for that?  

This same type of oil run-up and shortage driving up prices (I'm beginning to now wonder what the last one was all about) happened in the late 1970's and early 1980's. We are essentially back to the same situation as then, yet has the oil industry made any significant progress in weaning us off of oil yet in 30 years? Even with the federal governments help and tax incentives it hasn't.

Adding a new tax thus sounds contrary to common sense but, we really need to add a small tax of a few cents per gallon equivalent to oil revenues, not remove the existing ones at the pump if we want to reduce demand.

Removing existing taxes would only put a small dent in the almost $2.00/gallon run-up in gas prices we've seen the last two years. Instead a small tax(or reduced oil tax incentive) would actually decrease consumption and help fund alternatives, but only if the funds raised go into investing wisely in a dedicated 'alternative energy fund' up on the hill towards alternatives.

The funds raised (like the road tax does currently) could then be used to 'incentivise' competition in new ways like small X-prize initiatives in automotives, and miniature power plant development.  It can be done. Taxes *can* be done in a smart ways.

Removing an existing road tax to give consumers a summer break is petty politics and would actually cost more in the longer run by upsetting this industry and end up hurting existing funding for road and bridge improvements across America. Not a good thing if infrastructure issues are also on your agenda as 'things that need improvement' across the USA. But getting elected?  Yah, I suppose some would enjoy buying some votes perhaps. To me that's what it would look like.

There's no way around it in my opinion. Either oil revenues need to be 'smartly invested' by oil companies (and privately wealthy individuals who benefit from property they own with oil and gas rights) as they rake in profits, or we red blooded US citizens need to wise up and learn from the mistakes we've been through - one too many times already. Our US soldiers are paying dearly for this boondoggle in oil revenue generation that benefit mainly the wealthy.

We should  honor the spirit of our soldier's hard works and deeds by adding a tax, contrary to what sounds politically correct or expedient, or we'll be stuck in this foreign oil dependency 'muck' for decades to come.

Looking around me day to day, I still see far too many large cars on the road. This to me means folks are still willing to pay for higher gas prices and many appear to be able to afford it.

OK, so let's improve our US incentives to the auto industry and consumers to build and buy smaller more fuel efficient cars and hybrids. Let's tax those who can afford larger vehicles for instance when they purchase these cars. This will change buying habits and the auto industry to be greener and help their current initiatives take further hold.

Letting the oil industry 'control' the future of our alternative energy R&D in the US seems to me to be the very epitome of stupidity and a very risky venture particularly with US soldiers lives at stake defending oil sources overseas with the 'hope' that they'll be able to play friendly some day with the local natives and recoup the investment (I won't hold my breath).  I like most Americans are growing tired of this oil driven foreign escapade in securing contracts for 'easy oil'. There are no easy roads out of oil dependence.

We need to invest in alternatives and tax oil if nanything to 'wake folks up' to the realities of the 21st century we all face. If it were solely up to me I'de even go further and heavily tax oil until the wealthy start complaining, but we do need a realistic tax that is affordable by everyone that helps change our US energy posture.

A small tax (or virtual tax based on reduced tax breaks) would help drop consumption, stop some of the speculation and finally fund alternative energy approaches after 30 years of waiting and making the same mistakes again and again. Are we Americans awake yet?

Enough of the oil stone age.  Let's move on..  

-JChan

]]> Oil Increases are Driven by Pure Speculation

Plain and simple. The root cause of the recent price spike in oil are because of speculation. (If you don't mind reading a long argument in favor of increased taxes read on ..)

Let's face it, how many of us have mutual funds that heavily invest in the energy sector?  Whether we realize it or not many Americans do. A good % of profits that oil companies are making is feeding the gains in these energy sector mutual funds in my opinion. Add to that the speculative 'greed' common during these types of run ups and we basically get what we're seeing today and then wonder what's going on. Of course worldwide demand is increasing. Of course course oil is getting harder and more expensive to find. These are also realities.

For a good perspective on this issue read this business week article: There is No Oil Shortage" by Ed Wallace.

The oil shortages today do remind me of the games of the past. Oil has once again been pegged to the 'need' to produce profit gains in my opinion. Just look at what happened today when Exxon didn't make their expected industry quarterly earnings. They still made many billions, but the market wanted even more and sold their stocks.  Why?  Probably to justify the increases already factored into the market by speculators (in my opinion).

It's very disheartening to see what we've become as a nation. Oil is making huge profits, yet not one oil company I've read about appears to be heavily investing in alternatives justified by the huge profits they are raking in. Why? For instance, during the internet boom, companies that needed new capabilities they didn't have in-house frequently bought other companies. Cisco is a good example of such a wise investor in outside technology.  Now ask yourself this. Have you even heard one peep out of an oil company doing essentially the same? Buying smaller newer and greener companies to change the energy industry and inject new ideas into the US economy?  Nope.  Why is that?  There is something fundamentally wrong when you see this sort of thing in my opinion.

My feelings are because they don't know how to invest in new R&D approaches outside of their expertise areas (oil, gas and even coal). Plain and simple. They are essentially fixated on oil supply and demand issues and stuck in operations mode most of the time.

Finding new oil wells, even drilling out at sea in deeper wells if they have to to meet the demand by consumers. Afterall, there's a refinery shortage and supply issue as reported in the news media. Correct?  Do we Americans seriously think they have the R&D 'know how' in-house to try new approaches like improved battery technology using nanotechnology or new materials science ideas from many good ideas and places across America? If they did, why aren't they doing it in a large and visible way? How many university R&D programs are being funded by wealthy oil companies? How does it stack up to profits?

We are also essentially asking oil companies and individuals who invest in oil to 'put themselves out of business' if they shift to alternative ideas.  Gee, I wonder how many would willingly sign up for that?  

This same type of oil run-up and shortage driving up prices (I'm beginning to now wonder what the last one was all about) happened in the late 1970's and early 1980's. We are essentially back to the same situation as then, yet has the oil industry made any significant progress in weaning us off of oil yet in 30 years? Even with the federal governments help and tax incentives it hasn't.

Adding a new tax thus sounds contrary to common sense but, we really need to add a small tax of a few cents per gallon equivalent to oil revenues, not remove the existing ones at the pump if we want to reduce demand.

Removing existing taxes would only put a small dent in the almost $2.00/gallon run-up in gas prices we've seen the last two years. Instead a small tax(or reduced oil tax incentive) would actually decrease consumption and help fund alternatives, but only if the funds raised go into investing wisely in a dedicated 'alternative energy fund' up on the hill towards alternatives.

The funds raised (like the road tax does currently) could then be used to 'incentivise' competition in new ways like small X-prize initiatives in automotives, and miniature power plant development.  It can be done. Taxes *can* be done in a smart ways.

Removing an existing road tax to give consumers a summer break is petty politics and would actually cost more in the longer run by upsetting this industry and end up hurting existing funding for road and bridge improvements across America. Not a good thing if infrastructure issues are also on your agenda as 'things that need improvement' across the USA. But getting elected?  Yah, I suppose some would enjoy buying some votes perhaps. To me that's what it would look like.

There's no way around it in my opinion. Either oil revenues need to be 'smartly invested' by oil companies (and privately wealthy individuals who benefit from property they own with oil and gas rights) as they rake in profits, or we red blooded US citizens need to wise up and learn from the mistakes we've been through - one too many times already. Our US soldiers are paying dearly for this boondoggle in oil revenue generation that benefit mainly the wealthy.

We should  honor the spirit of our soldier's hard works and deeds by adding a tax, contrary to what sounds politically correct or expedient, or we'll be stuck in this foreign oil dependency 'muck' for decades to come.

Looking around me day to day, I still see far too many large cars on the road. This to me means folks are still willing to pay for higher gas prices and many appear to be able to afford it.

OK, so let's improve our US incentives to the auto industry and consumers to build and buy smaller more fuel efficient cars and hybrids. Let's tax those who can afford larger vehicles for instance when they purchase these cars. This will change buying habits and the auto industry to be greener and help their current initiatives take further hold.

Letting the oil industry 'control' the future of our alternative energy R&D in the US seems to me to be the very epitome of stupidity and a very risky venture particularly with US soldiers lives at stake defending oil sources overseas with the 'hope' that they'll be able to play friendly some day with the local natives and recoup the investment (I won't hold my breath).  I like most Americans are growing tired of this oil driven foreign escapade in securing contracts for 'easy oil'. There are no easy roads out of oil dependence.

We need to invest in alternatives and tax oil if nanything to 'wake folks up' to the realities of the 21st century we all face. If it were solely up to me I'de even go further and heavily tax oil until the wealthy start complaining, but we do need a realistic tax that is affordable by everyone that helps change our US energy posture.

A small tax (or virtual tax based on reduced tax breaks) would help drop consumption, stop some of the speculation and finally fund alternative energy approaches after 30 years of waiting and making the same mistakes again and again. Are we Americans awake yet?

Enough of the oil stone age.  Let's move on..  

-JChan

]]> Comment #3 by human power http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/ Fri, 02 May 2008 16:48:39 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/3 It's easy to lower oil/gas prices

All we have to do is be as smart and determined as the WWII generation. A simple rationing of liquid fuel and grid power would drive down prices in a hurry as demand dropped to whatever level we set the quotas at. Of course, this means the rich would be in the same boat as the poor, so it can't possibly be done in the middle of our current class war.

]]> It's easy to lower oil/gas prices

All we have to do is be as smart and determined as the WWII generation. A simple rationing of liquid fuel and grid power would drive down prices in a hurry as demand dropped to whatever level we set the quotas at. Of course, this means the rich would be in the same boat as the poor, so it can't possibly be done in the middle of our current class war.

]]> Comment #4 by ce1907 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/ Fri, 02 May 2008 23:34:51 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/4 Big Tom is correct

cynical and half-arsed, as usual

last year's "cure" for high gas prices was ethanol

]]> Big Tom is correct

cynical and half-arsed, as usual

last year's "cure" for high gas prices was ethanol

]]> Comment #5 by JChan111 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/ Sat, 03 May 2008 02:30:38 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/5 ANWAR is a 7 Year Solution at Best

Opening up ANWAR to empty the beautiful wilderness of oil reserves will only buy us a 7 year short term solution. I would expect as much from politicians and frankly as a former New Mexican I'm ashamed of old Pete for doing this. He must be caving in in his old age nearing retirement and this is his parting legacy to be remembered by our next generation I suppose. Old 'easy oil' Pete is what I'll have to start calling him. I would have never thought I'de see the day.

Several good studies have already indicated that 7 years worth of US annual consumption is about all the 'easy oil' that's up there. Of course speculators will claim  "There's more up there ..you'll see ..let's roll the dice one more time".

Mind you oil companies over the last 30 years have non invasive means to do "geo studies" and explore areas up there and get a good estimate of what's probably there to tap.  

So essentially, we're now proposing taking from the 'easy oil' bank account we should be saving for the generations to come, sort like dipping into the only 'natural' strategic emergency petroleum reserve we still have left here in the 50 states.  It sure must be a national emergency to do this!  (I hate to see the situation in another ten years after this is all gone).

OK Pete ..let's raid the bank account for the kids to pay off today's absurd 'credit card-like' run-up in oil prices -about the equivalent mindset since $120/barrel oil still isn't enough apparently to get at that 'easy oil'.  When will it be enough??  $200, $300/barrel ? I suppose the sky is the limit because the more money the better when it comes to oil companies investing in smart alternatives right? Just where are their smart alternatives? and how much will it really take to get there then?

We're only delaying the inevitable problem, instead of facing it and dealing with it and investing NOW in alternative solutions with a small tax (contrary to what most might think) and using that revenue to fund small companies and initiatives that show new R&D solutions that the oil companies themselves would probably never dream of in 100 years of foreign oil escapades.

I agree with Bingaman on this one, and I normally vote republican !

-JChan


]]> ANWAR is a 7 Year Solution at Best

Opening up ANWAR to empty the beautiful wilderness of oil reserves will only buy us a 7 year short term solution. I would expect as much from politicians and frankly as a former New Mexican I'm ashamed of old Pete for doing this. He must be caving in in his old age nearing retirement and this is his parting legacy to be remembered by our next generation I suppose. Old 'easy oil' Pete is what I'll have to start calling him. I would have never thought I'de see the day.

Several good studies have already indicated that 7 years worth of US annual consumption is about all the 'easy oil' that's up there. Of course speculators will claim  "There's more up there ..you'll see ..let's roll the dice one more time".

Mind you oil companies over the last 30 years have non invasive means to do "geo studies" and explore areas up there and get a good estimate of what's probably there to tap.  

So essentially, we're now proposing taking from the 'easy oil' bank account we should be saving for the generations to come, sort like dipping into the only 'natural' strategic emergency petroleum reserve we still have left here in the 50 states.  It sure must be a national emergency to do this!  (I hate to see the situation in another ten years after this is all gone).

OK Pete ..let's raid the bank account for the kids to pay off today's absurd 'credit card-like' run-up in oil prices -about the equivalent mindset since $120/barrel oil still isn't enough apparently to get at that 'easy oil'.  When will it be enough??  $200, $300/barrel ? I suppose the sky is the limit because the more money the better when it comes to oil companies investing in smart alternatives right? Just where are their smart alternatives? and how much will it really take to get there then?

We're only delaying the inevitable problem, instead of facing it and dealing with it and investing NOW in alternative solutions with a small tax (contrary to what most might think) and using that revenue to fund small companies and initiatives that show new R&D solutions that the oil companies themselves would probably never dream of in 100 years of foreign oil escapades.

I agree with Bingaman on this one, and I normally vote republican !

-JChan


]]> Comment #6 by Colin Wright http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/ Sat, 03 May 2008 04:20:32 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/6 How would a rationing system work?

I'm with human power on this one. Rationing will be the only fair way to ensure that people can get to work (in the short term) and the economy does not collapse when gas prices double and double again. Indonesia just this week has started rationing gas with smart cards.

Of course, it will be a while before that is politically acceptable. But greens can help prepare the public by educating them on peak oil, and proposing peak oil mitigation strategies.

What would rationing do to global oil prices? Perhaps a decreased demand would lower the price of a barrel of oil. But really a world oil depletion protocol would have to be hammered out to get the speculative money out of oil.

I don't know how rising public anger will play out, as the politicians are unable to bring down global oil prices. Truckers have the power to bring the economy to a standstill (as they did in England several years ago). Maybe diesel rationing and subsidies will come first? Or maybe some honest and far-sighted leader will emerge who can guide us gracefully out of the Oil Age? I don't see that leadership in either the Democratic or Republican current plans.

]]> How would a rationing system work?

I'm with human power on this one. Rationing will be the only fair way to ensure that people can get to work (in the short term) and the economy does not collapse when gas prices double and double again. Indonesia just this week has started rationing gas with smart cards.

Of course, it will be a while before that is politically acceptable. But greens can help prepare the public by educating them on peak oil, and proposing peak oil mitigation strategies.

What would rationing do to global oil prices? Perhaps a decreased demand would lower the price of a barrel of oil. But really a world oil depletion protocol would have to be hammered out to get the speculative money out of oil.

I don't know how rising public anger will play out, as the politicians are unable to bring down global oil prices. Truckers have the power to bring the economy to a standstill (as they did in England several years ago). Maybe diesel rationing and subsidies will come first? Or maybe some honest and far-sighted leader will emerge who can guide us gracefully out of the Oil Age? I don't see that leadership in either the Democratic or Republican current plans.

]]> Comment #7 by Tasermons Partner http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/ Sat, 03 May 2008 06:23:42 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/dems-poised-to-unveil-their-gas-plan/7 Why do they bother...

...with a bill that'll stop the fill of strategic reserve and have a windfall profit tax?

Do they honestly believe that it won't get vetoed?  Or is just for show?

I doubt they have a 2/3 nedded to override the veto, so why?

]]> Why do they bother...

...with a bill that'll stop the fill of strategic reserve and have a windfall profit tax?

Do they honestly believe that it won't get vetoed?  Or is just for show?

I doubt they have a 2/3 nedded to override the veto, so why?

]]>