That's good to hear and I applaud the Dems, but the Green Party has been saying this all along; that we can have smart, sustainable growth by investing in things like renewable energy.

So what about the poor that want to do something then. I made less the 20k last year and live in an apartment. No second mortgage for me, no solar or geothermal either. Oh I know i could get a job in the green industry but darn they all require knowledge and training I don't have. Hrm I guess the ones that can already afford the training get the good jobs then oh well.

but aren't saving their pennies to install solar, or geothermal systems on their houses

But nobody should really be doing that.

Installing a geothermal heatpump system only works well before the house was even built.

I've heard a couple times from solar panel engineers that solar panels right now are more-so for the "good kharma" feeling, and not so much realistic economic payback.

Why does someone need to have a solar panel sitting on their roof in order to get solar electricity?  You don't need to buy a cow if you just want a gallon of milk.

_

The best thing the general public can do is to coordinate, and lobby their political representatives.

Since thats where they can influence change most.

Hey, all:

Gawd, such narrow-minded frank ignorance:

"But nobody should really be doing that.

   1. Installing a geothermal heatpump system only works well before the house was even built.

   2. I've heard a couple times from solar panel engineers that solar panels right now are more-so for the "good kharma" feeling, and not so much realistic economic payback.

   3. Why does someone need to have a solar panel sitting on their roof in order to get solar electricity?  You don't need to buy a cow if you just want a gallon of milk."

  Earth-coupled heat pumps work far better than conventional heat pumps or air conditioning, provided the system is sized properly, it is appropriate for the climate on site, and installation is done correctly.  They cost more initially but use much less electricity, last much longer, and are quiet.

 My PV panels paid for themselves in only a few years.  Your solar panel engineer associates are stupid.  If you believe in karma, fine, but I don't really know anyone in the PV field who deals in such things.  Pragmatism is far more appropriate.  Do they practice Feng Shui, also?  If so, they are missing the point on PV and solar orientation.

 PV panels are used because the sun provides free electricity.  Where the Hell does the cow and milk reference come from?  

Jobs in sustainable energy industries indeed provide a great deal of benefit.  Cities have been busy attracting PV and wind system manufacturers to their locations.  Batteries, charge controllers, inverters, and other equipment are also produced.  Solar domestic water heaters are assembled in similar facilities with similar benefits.  Many different kinds of jobs and the economic ripple effect all come from sustainability.  Transportation, sales, installation, and service all increase with the sustainability industry and a built infrastructure.    

As was said earlier, the Green Party has made this point for a long time.  Tom Friedman wrote about it in NYT before the 2004 elections.  I am glad the Dems have had the light turned on.  Sustainability is also far more egalitarian, and has the potential with tax rebates, subsidies, net-metering, and net-pay to improve economic conditions for lower income groups, providing a substantial improvement in disposable income and community health.  

I have said this before, though, until the corporate oligarchy has its kneecaps crushed, not much will change.  Don't look for much to happen until real reforms are achieved in campaign finance, lobbying, and election security.

David
Sustainability For Life

Messages done with sustainable energy, with Wind and Sun!

I am not against investment in sustainable energy, I think the government needs to make such investments despite the hardships it puts on taxpayers.  

What I am tired of hearing about is how the `green economy' creates jobs, it does not, it is an economic loser.   At this point I was going to explain all this, but it will take too much time and effort.  Instead let me recommend an explanation, from you local library pick up the book called "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt, read chapter 2, called "The broken Window".   This chapter explains very clearly why government spending on green jobs will slow the economy.  It should only take 30 minutes to read.  

If I can find something on-line that is as good I will post.

David,

Do you have a spread sheet showing the economic payback of the PV system you installed?

Hooray, indeed!  Loud applause for Van Jones, Jerome Ringo, Elsa Barboza, Bob Thelan, Ed Markey, Bernie Sanders, George Miller, Hilda Solis, Nancy Pelosi and everyone who is working to move this legislation forward.  It's fantastic and much needed.

Now is the perfect time for environmentalists, labor, social justice activists, community groups, business interests and government officials to work together towards its eventual passage and towards the follow up steps that lead to the fulfillment of the vision in Van's testimony.

I'm proud that Ed Markey and Bernie Sanders from right here in New England are taking a leadership role.  Green collar jobs are real, and they are now.  With leadership and solid programs, they can help lift thousands of people out of poverty and into stable careers with good wages.

Sign me up.

Kevin Doyle (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) //= 0; i=i-1){ if (l[i].substring(0, 1) == ' ') output += "&#"+unescape(l[i].substring(1))+";"; else output += unescape(l[i]); } document.getElementById('eeEncEmail_kv5itXQkOI').innerHTML = output; //]]>

Hey, all:

Hey, GtoeOne:

I missed your question about a spreadsheet for PV but the one you offered looks as good as any, and coincidentally comes from the same state as I live in, which is also one of the worst for supporting sustainability.  I would suggest one that adds possibility of wind in the mix.

Before anyone makes any PV or any other similar purchase, though, is that a home (or office/business) energy efficiency makeover should be done.   This will result in a smaller outlay for sustainability products.  The general rule is that each $1 spent on efficiency saves $5 in system cost.   Weatherizing, thermostats, light bulbs, appliances, even landscaping, etc., all drive sown system costs.  Search for "home energy budget" or similar terms to find things on the net.  You can plug all your numbers into either type of spreadsheet and learn a lot about the trade-offs, like the "$1 for $5" issue.  By the way, it looked like the defaults in the one you provided can be changed, either that or they certainly should be.

Maintenance specifically for batteries is actually very low.  Water level in lead/acid batteries should be checked monthly or so, and filled when needed.  Cost of distilled water is maximum ~$2/gallon, and you might spend $20/year on water.  Most other types of batteries have zero maintenance.

Replacement cost is significant but is not the biggest initial expense, nor does it make the investment unwise.  Lead/acid batteries will last 7-10 years depending on use and how you treat them.  Stable temperature in the mid 70s is best, and the less depth and the fewer times you discharge them the longer they will last.  Other battery types last longer but cost more.  I have $3,000-3,500 in batteries, and mine pay for themselves in 2-3 years, so I have 4-8 years cost-free.

Batteries are not necessary if you wish to only have the grid for backup.  If you have reliable Sun or Wind 24/7 you don't need them, but this is quite rare.  Less rare is the opportunity to use microhydro, a small turbine in your own fast-flowing perennial stream.    

I hope this helps, and adds to the green-collar jobs outlook.

David
Sustainability For Life

Messages done with sustainable energy, with Wind and Sun!