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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Breaking the technology breakthrough myth]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by mkayser</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 02:46:54 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Good contribution</strong></p><p>This is a good contribution to the debate, but I'm not sure it's decisive. You are essentially saying that technology breakthroughs have not driven recent trends in energy use. But isn't the obvious counterpoint that this is precisely because we haven't been sufficiently funding breakthrough research?</p><p>
You also seem to lean heavily on the "breakthroughs won't happen" argument, without addressing their argument that "if it doesn't happen we're screwed." </p><p>
What if you're both right? Then we're screwed?</p><p>
The reason that part of their argument is so relevant is because humans are capable of much more when our backs are against the wall. If the choice is really as stark as "breakthrough technology or mass death/famine," we will work our butts off to find a way. But if regulation can achieve the needed reductions there is much less reason to try that route.</p><p>
So your argument is a good contribution but I think there are some missing parts.</p>
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				<p><strong>Good contribution</strong></p><p>This is a good contribution to the debate, but I'm not sure it's decisive. You are essentially saying that technology breakthroughs have not driven recent trends in energy use. But isn't the obvious counterpoint that this is precisely because we haven't been sufficiently funding breakthrough research?</p><p>
You also seem to lean heavily on the "breakthroughs won't happen" argument, without addressing their argument that "if it doesn't happen we're screwed." </p><p>
What if you're both right? Then we're screwed?</p><p>
The reason that part of their argument is so relevant is because humans are capable of much more when our backs are against the wall. If the choice is really as stark as "breakthrough technology or mass death/famine," we will work our butts off to find a way. But if regulation can achieve the needed reductions there is much less reason to try that route.</p><p>
So your argument is a good contribution but I think there are some missing parts.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 02:50:50 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Eat My Vapor<p><br>
You guys are behind. &nbsp;Toyota just announced a fuel cell car that can go 800 miles on a single tank!<p>
Check this out...the H Highway is here in LA:<p>
<a href="http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html<p>
Look at all those stations.<p>
We'll be driving CO2 free cars in 3 years.

<p>John Bailo<br>
<a href="http://sutext.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">Sutext:</a></br></p></p></p></a></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Eat My Vapor<p><br>
You guys are behind. &nbsp;Toyota just announced a fuel cell car that can go 800 miles on a single tank!<p>
Check this out...the H Highway is here in LA:<p>
<a href="http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cafcp.org/fuel-vehl_map.html<p>
Look at all those stations.<p>
We'll be driving CO2 free cars in 3 years.

<p>John Bailo<br>
<a href="http://sutext.texeme.com" rel="nofollow">Sutext:</a></br></p></p></p></a></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 03:41:46 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Speaking of straw men...</strong></p><p>...the central argument of N&amp;S, from my point of view, is the need for public investment. &nbsp;Romm is concentrating on the breakthrough technology research part. &nbsp;But that's only one part of many possible ways to do public investment. &nbsp;Public transit? retrofitting? solar installations in all government buildings? &nbsp;Does Romm or any other regulation policy expert ever deal with these issues? &nbsp;I wish N&amp;S had not let everyone off the hook by providing such a relatively easy target of breakthrough technology</p>
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				<p><strong>Speaking of straw men...</strong></p><p>...the central argument of N&amp;S, from my point of view, is the need for public investment. &nbsp;Romm is concentrating on the breakthrough technology research part. &nbsp;But that's only one part of many possible ways to do public investment. &nbsp;Public transit? retrofitting? solar installations in all government buildings? &nbsp;Does Romm or any other regulation policy expert ever deal with these issues? &nbsp;I wish N&amp;S had not let everyone off the hook by providing such a relatively easy target of breakthrough technology</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 03:46:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Well put<p>Thank you for articulating they key reasons why technology alone is not enough: we have to use the technology (widely) before it will do us any good.<p>
On the topic of the need for new technologies, also see <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/10/3/102831/613#comment13" rel="nofollow">my comments in another thread. &nbsp;Short version: We can have a good standard of living, sustainably, with the technologies we have. &nbsp;We CANNOT live exactly the same life style to which we have become accustomed with the technologies we have. &nbsp;And that is a big part of the disconnect, at least with the Bush crowd. &nbsp;(I will give N&amp;S the benefit of the doubt in assuming that the non-negotiable American lifestyle is not part of their requirement.)<p>
(I also assert that we can't develop technologies that would permit us to do so sustainably, for fundamental reasons of the density of available energy. Certainly we cannot do so quickly. &nbsp;But that's a different discussion.)<br>
</br></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Well put<p>Thank you for articulating they key reasons why technology alone is not enough: we have to use the technology (widely) before it will do us any good.<p>
On the topic of the need for new technologies, also see <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/10/3/102831/613#comment13" rel="nofollow">my comments in another thread. &nbsp;Short version: We can have a good standard of living, sustainably, with the technologies we have. &nbsp;We CANNOT live exactly the same life style to which we have become accustomed with the technologies we have. &nbsp;And that is a big part of the disconnect, at least with the Bush crowd. &nbsp;(I will give N&amp;S the benefit of the doubt in assuming that the non-negotiable American lifestyle is not part of their requirement.)<p>
(I also assert that we can't develop technologies that would permit us to do so sustainably, for fundamental reasons of the density of available energy. Certainly we cannot do so quickly. &nbsp;But that's a different discussion.)<br>
</br></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by GreenEngineer</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 03:52:56 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>regulation<p>I want to point out that while it is true that<br>
Such infrastructure changes historically have required government action, because the infrastructure barriers to entry in those two sectors are so enormous that new technology (and even smart old technology, like combined heat and power) can't compete effectively.<br>
many of these barriers have been created precisely by the government itself. &nbsp;I'm sure that Sean Casten can say a thing or two about the details of that.<p>
The libertarian solution -- eliminating these government created barriers -- won't work because the system we have was built around these regulatory structures. &nbsp;Total deregulation would either allow the existing vested interests to capture total control, based on their pre-existing advantage, or would cause the system to fall apart entirely. &nbsp;And the energy infrastructure has to keep functioning or civilization will, quite literally, collapse. &nbsp;The challenge is akin to <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=M3hge6Bx-4w" rel="nofollow">building an airplane in mid-air.<p>
So we can't do it without government intervention and regulation, but we also must remain mindful of the fact that that intervention is the source of a &nbsp;big part of the problem in the first place.</p></a></p></br></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>regulation<p>I want to point out that while it is true that<br>
Such infrastructure changes historically have required government action, because the infrastructure barriers to entry in those two sectors are so enormous that new technology (and even smart old technology, like combined heat and power) can't compete effectively.<br>
many of these barriers have been created precisely by the government itself. &nbsp;I'm sure that Sean Casten can say a thing or two about the details of that.<p>
The libertarian solution -- eliminating these government created barriers -- won't work because the system we have was built around these regulatory structures. &nbsp;Total deregulation would either allow the existing vested interests to capture total control, based on their pre-existing advantage, or would cause the system to fall apart entirely. &nbsp;And the energy infrastructure has to keep functioning or civilization will, quite literally, collapse. &nbsp;The challenge is akin to <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=M3hge6Bx-4w" rel="nofollow">building an airplane in mid-air.<p>
So we can't do it without government intervention and regulation, but we also must remain mindful of the fact that that intervention is the source of a &nbsp;big part of the problem in the first place.</p></a></p></br></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by justlou</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 03:54:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Transforming the Infrastructure</strong></p><p>This seems to be a key component of an integrated approach. &nbsp;Plugging in add on sources of power into the current structure probably won't suffice and will probably just postpone the reckoning. &nbsp;The current structure based on concentrated, centralized and dense sources of energy will restrict the application of more decentralized, distributed and less dense energy sources. &nbsp;But some kind of transitional network would be essential. &nbsp;Making the transformation will will most certainly involve quite closely coordinated public and private efforts. &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>Transforming the Infrastructure</strong></p><p>This seems to be a key component of an integrated approach. &nbsp;Plugging in add on sources of power into the current structure probably won't suffice and will probably just postpone the reckoning. &nbsp;The current structure based on concentrated, centralized and dense sources of energy will restrict the application of more decentralized, distributed and less dense energy sources. &nbsp;But some kind of transitional network would be essential. &nbsp;Making the transformation will will most certainly involve quite closely coordinated public and private efforts. &nbsp;</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by NonprofitWatch</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 04:05:46 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/debunking-shellenberger-nordhaus-part-ii/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Unfortunately . . .<p>. . . at moment I don't have time to look closely at your post and ponder the matters at hand but in general I have appreciated much of your commentary that I've seen on Grist.<p>
However, I think your use of the word "debunking" is amusing for someone affiliated and I would presume paid by a group that has done ads in favor of ethanol; those ads seemed to have been heavily excoriated here on Grist.<br>
<a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/7/30/173511/136" rel="nofollow">http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/7/30/173511/136<p>
Did you ever comment on the issue?<p>
Moreover, your group is pretty politically connected, and I will look forward with interest to see the policies it supports and where it decides to take a stand on matters under discussion.<p>
But of course I should mention that I think myself somewhat biased in regards S&amp;N on account of a comment I think I saw from them long ago along the lines that shutting down NRDC might be good. ( But I could be wrong in this; if someone's aware of the reference, please let me know.)

<p>bernardo issel - <a href="http://www.NonprofitWatch.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.NonprofitWatch.org -
bernardo (at) NonprofitWatch.org
</a></p></p></p></p></a></br></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Unfortunately . . .<p>. . . at moment I don't have time to look closely at your post and ponder the matters at hand but in general I have appreciated much of your commentary that I've seen on Grist.<p>
However, I think your use of the word "debunking" is amusing for someone affiliated and I would presume paid by a group that has done ads in favor of ethanol; those ads seemed to have been heavily excoriated here on Grist.<br>
<a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/7/30/173511/136" rel="nofollow">http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/7/30/173511/136<p>
Did you ever comment on the issue?<p>
Moreover, your group is pretty politically connected, and I will look forward with interest to see the policies it supports and where it decides to take a stand on matters under discussion.<p>
But of course I should mention that I think myself somewhat biased in regards S&amp;N on account of a comment I think I saw from them long ago along the lines that shutting down NRDC might be good. ( But I could be wrong in this; if someone's aware of the reference, please let me know.)

<p>bernardo issel - <a href="http://www.NonprofitWatch.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.NonprofitWatch.org -
bernardo (at) NonprofitWatch.org
</a></p></p></p></p></a></br></p></p></strong></p>
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