<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Pretty much what you’d expect]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Mon, 06 Mar 2006 22:44:23 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/1 hype

I won't bore you all here, but there are a couple interesting contradictions in their Prius data:

They call the Prius a "small car" on page 19 and compare it with a Corolla.  The EPA calls the Prius a midsize.  Ooops, on page 23 of their magazine consumer reports again calls the Prius a midsize (and the corolla a small car).

The comparison of a larger Prius against a smaller Corolla makes the hybrid price premium look larger than it is.

Another reader (M1EK) notes that in the "hybrid hype" section they say the Prius has worse depreciation than the Corolla, but later in the magazine rate the Prius as "much better than average", but the Corolla, merely "average".

Fudging the depreciation data of course also makes the hybrid price premium look larger than it is.

... a little more here

I try to be fair, but it really seems that with those two "adjustments" the "hype" guys are working a little hard to get the answer they want.

]]> hype

I won't bore you all here, but there are a couple interesting contradictions in their Prius data:

They call the Prius a "small car" on page 19 and compare it with a Corolla.  The EPA calls the Prius a midsize.  Ooops, on page 23 of their magazine consumer reports again calls the Prius a midsize (and the corolla a small car).

The comparison of a larger Prius against a smaller Corolla makes the hybrid price premium look larger than it is.

Another reader (M1EK) notes that in the "hybrid hype" section they say the Prius has worse depreciation than the Corolla, but later in the magazine rate the Prius as "much better than average", but the Corolla, merely "average".

Fudging the depreciation data of course also makes the hybrid price premium look larger than it is.

... a little more here

I try to be fair, but it really seems that with those two "adjustments" the "hype" guys are working a little hard to get the answer they want.

]]> Comment #2 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 02:17:11 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/2 Huh dave?

"...there's no arguing with their facts"

Hehey, nice job disproving that statement odo!

Great blog too!!

Add plugin (at a reasonable price, say 4k with a 2k government tax break) to these hybrids and all the objections on fuel savings not paying for the extra cost of hybrids flys right out the window.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Huh dave?

"...there's no arguing with their facts"

Hehey, nice job disproving that statement odo!

Great blog too!!

Add plugin (at a reasonable price, say 4k with a 2k government tax break) to these hybrids and all the objections on fuel savings not paying for the extra cost of hybrids flys right out the window.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

]]> Comment #3 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 02:33:12 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/3 Status is status

however you manage to obtain it. People pay for performance in a car. A tiny two-seat sports car can cost 40k. In return you get performance, typically handling and acceleration, quality, and status. The performance you get with a Prius is fuel efficiency. You also get quality, and status. But, only the Prius insinuates that a thinking, caring person is inside. I think that paying more for a car to ease the strain on the environment trumps buying Terra passes or paying higher electric bills to buy green energy sources.

The hype comes into play only with the term hybrid. A Prius is a Prius, the fact that it obtains its performance via hybrid technology is irrelevant.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Status is status

however you manage to obtain it. People pay for performance in a car. A tiny two-seat sports car can cost 40k. In return you get performance, typically handling and acceleration, quality, and status. The performance you get with a Prius is fuel efficiency. You also get quality, and status. But, only the Prius insinuates that a thinking, caring person is inside. I think that paying more for a car to ease the strain on the environment trumps buying Terra passes or paying higher electric bills to buy green energy sources.

The hype comes into play only with the term hybrid. A Prius is a Prius, the fact that it obtains its performance via hybrid technology is irrelevant.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com

]]> Comment #4 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 03:29:16 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/4 status and/or labeling

It's amusing to see which cars in southern California have "Surfrider Foundation" license plate frames.  There are some "eco" cars, but at least as many 4x4s.

I sometimes wonder if that is because Surfrider attracts people focused on ocean (and not land/air) health or ... it is simply people joining to label themselves and their 4x4s as surfers ;-)

(thanks Doctor X)

]]> status and/or labeling

It's amusing to see which cars in southern California have "Surfrider Foundation" license plate frames.  There are some "eco" cars, but at least as many 4x4s.

I sometimes wonder if that is because Surfrider attracts people focused on ocean (and not land/air) health or ... it is simply people joining to label themselves and their 4x4s as surfers ;-)

(thanks Doctor X)

]]> Comment #5 by David Roberts http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 03:50:47 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/5 Yeah,

so much for that can't-question-their-facts thing. Thanks for the sharp eyes, Odograph. I didn't look very closely, since at this point I've seen so many of these stories I'm numb. I was just going on CR's good reputation. I think you should write them a letter.

Anyway, BioD's point is good: It would benefit the cultural conversation if we could all talk less about hybrids per se and more about fuel efficiency, which can be achieved in a number of ways.

www.grist.org

]]> Yeah,

so much for that can't-question-their-facts thing. Thanks for the sharp eyes, Odograph. I didn't look very closely, since at this point I've seen so many of these stories I'm numb. I was just going on CR's good reputation. I think you should write them a letter.

Anyway, BioD's point is good: It would benefit the cultural conversation if we could all talk less about hybrids per se and more about fuel efficiency, which can be achieved in a number of ways.

www.grist.org

]]> Comment #6 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 04:12:09 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/6 sure

Throw a link to real world mileage and let the chips fall where they may.

... we're on the same page with respect to efficiencies.

]]> sure

Throw a link to real world mileage and let the chips fall where they may.

... we're on the same page with respect to efficiencies.

]]> Comment #7 by sphinxie http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 05:00:09 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/7 at what price

One question I've wondered is, at what price of gas would hybrids become more economical choices?

]]> at what price

One question I've wondered is, at what price of gas would hybrids become more economical choices?

]]> Comment #8 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 05:45:31 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/8 equivalence

If you really are considering two cars, X and Y, you can run the five year cost of ownership for both:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/CTOintroController

The thing is, that uses the EPA sticker values for yearly fuel prices.  I think those are still stuck at some old, low, values.  Subtract that out of their fuel costs, and add in your fuel costs for your driving distance.

If you want to make it more accurate, get your likely insurance rates from your insurance agent.

I don't really think you can do one calculation for everybody, because you fall into that trap of deciding what are "equivalent" X and Ys.  I needed a hatchback.  The Prius is, none of the equivalents normally offered are at all.

]]> equivalence

If you really are considering two cars, X and Y, you can run the five year cost of ownership for both:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/CTOintroController

The thing is, that uses the EPA sticker values for yearly fuel prices.  I think those are still stuck at some old, low, values.  Subtract that out of their fuel costs, and add in your fuel costs for your driving distance.

If you want to make it more accurate, get your likely insurance rates from your insurance agent.

I don't really think you can do one calculation for everybody, because you fall into that trap of deciding what are "equivalent" X and Ys.  I needed a hatchback.  The Prius is, none of the equivalents normally offered are at all.

]]> Comment #9 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 06:09:39 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/9 shocking

I was going to play with gas prices and the above link a bit, and I started by running the Edmunds progams with defaults for the 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid versus the 2006 Honda Civic EX Sedan:

2006 Honda Civic Hybrid: $36,281
2006 Honda Civic EX Sedan: $37,341

That's a price difference of $1060, but Consumer Reports comes up with a diff of $3,700!

What's the deal?  Maybe they are using their 'loop' mpg data.  If I subtract out the gas cost for the two, and put back in the 12,000 mile per year cost for $2.50 (my current local price), I get:

2006 Honda Civic Hybrid: $36,423
2006 Honda Civic EX Sedan: $36,592

Hey, identical?

That's with 47 mpg for the hybrid and 31.5 for the regular, from the EPA's "real world" site, for automatics.  Feel free to check my math (please).

]]> shocking

I was going to play with gas prices and the above link a bit, and I started by running the Edmunds progams with defaults for the 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid versus the 2006 Honda Civic EX Sedan:

2006 Honda Civic Hybrid: $36,281
2006 Honda Civic EX Sedan: $37,341

That's a price difference of $1060, but Consumer Reports comes up with a diff of $3,700!

What's the deal?  Maybe they are using their 'loop' mpg data.  If I subtract out the gas cost for the two, and put back in the 12,000 mile per year cost for $2.50 (my current local price), I get:

2006 Honda Civic Hybrid: $36,423
2006 Honda Civic EX Sedan: $36,592

Hey, identical?

That's with 47 mpg for the hybrid and 31.5 for the regular, from the EPA's "real world" site, for automatics.  Feel free to check my math (please).

]]> Comment #10 by Kit Stolz http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 06:22:44 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/10 Civic mileage

I hope you're right about the comparison odograph, but I suspect CU was using their own real-world estimate of 37 mpg.

]]> Civic mileage

I hope you're right about the comparison odograph, but I suspect CU was using their own real-world estimate of 37 mpg.

]]> Comment #11 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 06:27:06 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/11 ah

Using the Consumer Reports MPGs (37 and 28), and everything else from Edmunds, I get:

2006 Honda Civic Hybrid: $37,286
2006 Honda Civic EX Sedan: $37,188

I'm probably doing something wrong ... but if I'm not, jeez.

]]> ah

Using the Consumer Reports MPGs (37 and 28), and everything else from Edmunds, I get:

2006 Honda Civic Hybrid: $37,286
2006 Honda Civic EX Sedan: $37,188

I'm probably doing something wrong ... but if I'm not, jeez.

]]> Comment #12 by odograph http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 06:55:51 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/12 open book

My numbers are presented here and come out about the same as above.  I'll be happy to fix any (more) errors that are found.

I should try to slow down.

]]> open book

My numbers are presented here and come out about the same as above.  I'll be happy to fix any (more) errors that are found.

I should try to slow down.

]]> Comment #13 by Captain America http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/ Tue, 07 Mar 2006 12:12:23 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/consumer-reports-on-hybrids-and-hummers/13 Hummers


Hummers:

A vehicle for the arrogant rich.

Hummers are a in-your-face statement to the "average" man, from the rich man.  That is the single biggest reason for purchasing one.

Hummers are all about Man's lust for power, status and the ego.

..

America First The World Second


]]> Hummers


Hummers:

A vehicle for the arrogant rich.

Hummers are a in-your-face statement to the "average" man, from the rich man.  That is the single biggest reason for purchasing one.

Hummers are all about Man's lust for power, status and the ego.

..

America First The World Second


]]>