Tell me how one technology is easier for CO2 squestration than another, please.  The gas comes out the stack after being combusted ... hey am I missing something here?  Both gasification and liquification require big amounts of energy and one might "better" than another in terms of prepping the fuel but I don't get it.  

Man, the truth is that when you heat coal for coal gas is creates gas and liquids. The Fischer-Tropsch method takes it one step further by using cataysts to convert CO and H to gasoline and diesel mixtures.  

Hey, wasn't that how Hitler made diesel for his tanks when they invaded Africa?

Anyway, weither is synthetic and both outcomes are plain old organic compounds with the same ole greenhouse gas problem.  

To retrun to my point, though, what would anybody gain by these technologies, when a powerplant can run just fine on powerderized coal?  Wouldn't you waste any benefits by making coal gas or fake diesel, and net-out about even?  

Don't both coking processes make huge amounts of solid wate that is toxic?  I mean at least coal ash can be encapsulated in concrete - for use in construction - not so with the other technologies.  

I do detect some politics at work here, since anything to do with coal really sucks.  /sammie

Onward through the fog

CO2 sequestration is stupid.

However I do think coal could play some role.

"Air Blown" IGCC plants look pretty nice at 55% effeciency.  Since it doesn't need purified oxygen to run.  And cuts water usage by 70%.

The real catch being, you don't need to use coal. You could use algae BioMass instead.

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But what REALLY gets interesting is Direct Carbon Fuel Cells.  

It operated at 70-80% effeciency.  And uses no water.

Or it could be operated at 33% effeciency generating liquid diesel fuels, and 31% effeciency generating electricity.

But once again, the real interesting part is if this is all done using Algae biomass instead of using Coal.

Could have some reliable renewable power that fills the gaps between solar and wind.  

And it wouldn't just be baseload like IGCC, it'd also be useful for peaker power like natural gas.

If they are really hell bent on Fischer Trophe to make liquid fuels.

Then use Biomass-to-Liquid.

Win-win

Refine the coal with wind electricity.  

No cO2 produced in the refining.  If the diesel is used in a plugin serial hybrid with over 200mpg, the total emissions are cut from very high mileage and wind electric power charging the plugin cars and renewable powered no CO2 refining.  

Oil refining could be done with wind electric power too.  When demand from utility customers drops, wind could be used to refine extra fuel products.  Renewable power stored in liquid fuel.

Wind would be great for tar sands too.   Both coal and tar sands to liquid could be done with electric plasma drills.  They can be sent down into the deposit and the liquids come up the drill pipe for refining.

The only other really clean coal would be methane from coal deposits injected with bacteria that make coal into biogas.  This would work with tar sands and oil as well.  A lot of oil is sour or unretrievable.  

This source of natural gas would last 100+ years.  Enough time to solve our energy problems.  
 

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I'm no fan of coal, but as has been pointed out, it's currently about half our electricity base, so it's not going away soon.

I would submit that taking a hard-line "kill coal" stance is likely to do more harm than good: it gives your opponents an excuse to marginalize you, and it plays into their tactics of lumping all coal technologies together under a single banner.  A more nuanced approach (distinguishing IGCC from CTL from fluidized bed technology, etc) is both more realistic, and may help separate the really bad ideas from the merely bad.

Also, consider this: An IGCC plant (or better, a direct carbon fuel cell) with waste heat capture to a district heating system (cogeneration) can achieve a total efficiency upwards of 80%.  Burning coal with an 80% efficiency produces less carbon than burning natural gas with 35% efficiency (in a conventional plant) and then supplying heat with yet more gas.  The mining impacts are a problem, to be sure.  But even without sequestration, coal can be an effective, relatively low-carbon energy source, if used properly.  (Yes, you can apply these same techniques to natural gas plants, and do even better.  But coal's what we have, and what we're going to have in the future.  We'd better figure out how to use it properly, or it will simply be used improperly.)

I was rather shocked the first time I heard this

But apparently those yard clippings that cities take in the yard waste recycling bin.

Those actually don't get used for agriculture.

Most the time, it's just used as an "alternative daily cover" dirt layer ontop of landfills.

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Best part about using Biomass instead of coal
You wouldn't have to worry about all the nasty sulfur or mercury present in Coal.

Or also, instead of Coal.  Use Charcoal.
Which is essentially just biomass thats been burned at very low oxygen content.

Either way, scrapping the need for emmisions reduction technology would go a long way to making Biomass cost competative with Coal.

Either way, scrapping the need for emmisions reduction technology would go a long way to making Biomass cost competative with Coal.

I assume you're refering to carbon sequestration specifically.  Air quality is still an issue with either technology, though in both cases, gasification is a big improvement over direct combustion.  But, yes, coal + CO2 sequestration is probably on par with, or more expensive than, biomass gasification.

We need a clear carbon policy so damn bad...

Gristers need a Chemistry Class...it doesn't have to be Orgo -- it's not like you guys are pre-med here.  But remember all these fuels are basically the same.

Coal.      Carbon.  Hydrogen.
Oil.       Carbon.  Hydrogen.
Gasoline   Carbon.  Hydrogen.
Hydrogen    Water   Hydrogen.

So, it's not what the fuel is, but how we process it.  Ultimately there could be a solid fuel "cell" that could strip out the hydrogen and convert it to electricity.

Anything is possible...so don't close off options.  Coal could be the cleanest of the clean.

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Nope, I'm not refering to sequestration
Infact I think carbon sequestration is bunk.

What I'm refering to is that by exclusively using biomass inside a Direct Carbon Fuel Cell.
You would forgo the need for virtually any sort of Air Toxics Removal.
And from what I'm aware, the Air Toxics Removal is a very expensive part of making a coal fired power plant.

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So by using the difference in cost of not having any Air Toxics Removal

You could then apply that to the increased cost of Biomass.

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The other advantage, without any form of air toxics removal, it'd be impossible to use Coal in this system.
Since you'd need to remove Sulfur and Mercury.

So that tends to force the fuel choice.

Scorse has examined the problem in depth--or a single piece of stenography from CERA that wound up in the NYT anyway -- and assures us that the concern about peak oil is simply silly gloom and doom types.

Bountiful supplies of oil thus assured, there's obviously no reason to fear anyone will do something both exotic and stupid like trying to make liquid fuels from coal.

(It does make one wonder why, when there's no peak in sight, those silly oil companies are investing so much in canadian tar sands and in extreme deep water drilling.  Apparently they haven't consulted enough economists to know that there's no end to the increased volume of oil that we can expect for--well, forever, apparently, since anyone who denies that oil will peak is arguing that we will never reach a peak in oil production.)

Meanwhile, let's just go back to pretending that peak oil and global warming are seperate problems.  It'll be like doing coupled differential equations: MUCH easier when you just assume the boundary values that you need to make the problems tractable.  And if any little snots ask why there's such a push to turn high-carbon sources into oil replacements, we'll just refer them to Scorse, who can assure them that there's nothing to worry about and that concern about peak oil is just so last year ....

Coal.      Carbon.  Hydrogen.
Oil.       Carbon.  Hydrogen.
Gasoline   Carbon.  Hydrogen.
Hydrogen    Water   Hydrogen.

Correct to:

Coal - Carbon. Almost no hydrogen (minumum of 50% carbon by weigh, very low ratio of hydrogen atoms to carbon atoms (varies depending on other hydrocarbons in coal).
Oil    Carbon. Very little hydrogen (mostly various forms of CnH2)
Gas    Carbon. Significant amount of hydrogen (CH4)

Natural gas (methane) has higher ratios of hydrogen to carbon atoms than other fossil fuels, and thus produces fewer carbon emissions per BTU.

Incidentally the comparison of the most efficient coal to the least efficent gas is absurd. The most  efficient large scale combined cycle turbines, mature technology, commerically available turnkey have a theoretical efficiency of 60% and get around 55% efficiency in practice. Because they reach full economy of scale in sizes as small as 3 MW, you can use them in commercial buildings and factories for combined heat and power, which means that in practice you could burn the cleaner, less carbon intensive fuel as or more efficiently than coal.

Scorse has examined the problem in depth--or a single piece of stenography from CERA that wound up in the NYT anyway -- and assures us that the concern about peak oil is simply silly gloom and doom types.
Bountiful supplies of oil thus assured, there's obviously no reason to fear anyone will do something both exotic and stupid like trying to make liquid fuels from coal.

I think you misunderstand what Peak Oil is.

It's not saying that we're running dry on oil.
It says the next half of the oil will be progressively more expensive.

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Furthermore, what with the slogan of "Energy Independance from Foriegn Nations"

Chances are they will still proceed doing exactly what they've been doing.

Have any of you been to a coal mine in the 21st century.  SMCRA and other state by state mining laws require post mining land use that leaves the land even better than before mining took place.  The stereo-typical "raping the earth no longer applies to the dozen or so mines that I have had the pleasure of visiting.  And no, I don't work for a mining company.