<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for A columnist thinks so]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by zacaroni http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/ Thu, 24 May 2007 08:22:09 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/1 YOW

So true.

]]> YOW

So true.

]]> Comment #2 by Bart Anderson http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/ Thu, 24 May 2007 08:58:29 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/2 Politics - not a morality play

Thanks for helping putting the environmental record of the Democrats under scrutiny, David.

The caving in of Clinton and Obama is really no surprise. They, like all practical politicians, respond to pressure.  The stronger the environmental movement, the greener the candidates will become.

To me, this argues for putting one's energy into environmental groups, rather than into the Democratic Party per se.  Then, if Democratic candidates want the support of environmentalists, we have something to bargain with.

One thing I see as a waste of time is the language of personal morality: "selling out", "integrity", "hypocrite," etc.  Talk like that gives us an emotional jolt - indignation or enthusiasm - but it has little to do with politics as it actually is practiced.

Bart
Energy Bulletin

]]> Politics - not a morality play

Thanks for helping putting the environmental record of the Democrats under scrutiny, David.

The caving in of Clinton and Obama is really no surprise. They, like all practical politicians, respond to pressure.  The stronger the environmental movement, the greener the candidates will become.

To me, this argues for putting one's energy into environmental groups, rather than into the Democratic Party per se.  Then, if Democratic candidates want the support of environmentalists, we have something to bargain with.

One thing I see as a waste of time is the language of personal morality: "selling out", "integrity", "hypocrite," etc.  Talk like that gives us an emotional jolt - indignation or enthusiasm - but it has little to do with politics as it actually is practiced.

Bart
Energy Bulletin

]]> Comment #3 by Akonitum http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/ Thu, 24 May 2007 12:41:34 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/3 Growth factor

Read the Hurowitz article.

Clinton signed off on a two week experimental tire burn (for energy and corporate business) that proved toxic in three days and was shut down.

Obama supports coal to liquids as an alternative to oil and natural gas. Global oil production seems to have peaked, and so too North American natural gas production has peaked. (Read The Oil Drum.)

Both examples are rooted in our widespred, bipartisan, insatiable demand for energy to support business-as-usual consumption patterns and unremitting exponential growth.

No presidential candidate, and few Democrats, let alone Republicans, do much (anything?) to question our indiscriminate growth assumptions.

--
Are Humans Smarter Than Yeast? (video clip: 8.5min)

]]> Growth factor

Read the Hurowitz article.

Clinton signed off on a two week experimental tire burn (for energy and corporate business) that proved toxic in three days and was shut down.

Obama supports coal to liquids as an alternative to oil and natural gas. Global oil production seems to have peaked, and so too North American natural gas production has peaked. (Read The Oil Drum.)

Both examples are rooted in our widespred, bipartisan, insatiable demand for energy to support business-as-usual consumption patterns and unremitting exponential growth.

No presidential candidate, and few Democrats, let alone Republicans, do much (anything?) to question our indiscriminate growth assumptions.

--
Are Humans Smarter Than Yeast? (video clip: 8.5min)

]]> Comment #4 by zacaroni http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/ Thu, 24 May 2007 23:39:54 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/4 To Bart:

Isn't the "if you help me, then I'll help you" sort of agreement what's fueling the corruption in American politics right now?  As I see it, if we incentivize environmental responsibility by offering our support in exchange for it, we weaken the idea that it is something of worth in the first place: we turn it into a commodity.  And then it's politics as usual.

Environmental responsibility should be expected, natural, assumed - not an incentive.

]]> To Bart:

Isn't the "if you help me, then I'll help you" sort of agreement what's fueling the corruption in American politics right now?  As I see it, if we incentivize environmental responsibility by offering our support in exchange for it, we weaken the idea that it is something of worth in the first place: we turn it into a commodity.  And then it's politics as usual.

Environmental responsibility should be expected, natural, assumed - not an incentive.

]]> Comment #5 by Bart Anderson http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/ Fri, 25 May 2007 09:54:00 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/clinton-and-obama-eco-sellouts/5 wise as serpents and innocent as doves

Isn't the "if you help me, then I'll help you" sort of agreement what's fueling the corruption in American politics right now? I think this is just the way politics is, all the way back to the Greek city-states. It is very helpful to know how the game is played!

In the long run I agree with you, that environmental awareness will be widespread, just as we all now agree on the evils as slavery.

But just as the anti-slavery struggle was long and hard, so it will be with environmental awareness.

In the meantime, the advice from Matthew may be apt: "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

Bart
Energy Bulletin

]]> wise as serpents and innocent as doves

Isn't the "if you help me, then I'll help you" sort of agreement what's fueling the corruption in American politics right now? I think this is just the way politics is, all the way back to the Greek city-states. It is very helpful to know how the game is played!

In the long run I agree with you, that environmental awareness will be widespread, just as we all now agree on the evils as slavery.

But just as the anti-slavery struggle was long and hard, so it will be with environmental awareness.

In the meantime, the advice from Matthew may be apt: "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

Bart
Energy Bulletin

]]>