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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Hansen&#8217;s trip report finds &#8216;sobering degree of self-deception&#8217; in Germany, U.K., Japan]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:28:47 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Quibble?</strong></p><p>It looks from the graphs like oil emissions are about equal to coal emissions,and that in the case of the US oil emissions are larger than coal emissions. &nbsp;So I really think that oil use has to be attacked at the same time as coal use.</p><p>
Maybe Hansen thinks it would be politically easier to go after coal, since people don't care where there electricity comes from, while replacing oil with electricity in the transportation sector might require more personal day-to-day changes.</p>
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				<p><strong>Quibble?</strong></p><p>It looks from the graphs like oil emissions are about equal to coal emissions,and that in the case of the US oil emissions are larger than coal emissions. &nbsp;So I really think that oil use has to be attacked at the same time as coal use.</p><p>
Maybe Hansen thinks it would be politically easier to go after coal, since people don't care where there electricity comes from, while replacing oil with electricity in the transportation sector might require more personal day-to-day changes.</p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Ken Johnson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:56:39 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Jon -</strong></p><p>I think what sets coal apart is the growth trend. The point would have been clearer if he had plotted coal on top.</p><p>
Re "oil use has to be attacked", it will be - by peak oil.</p>
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				<p><strong>Jon -</strong></p><p>I think what sets coal apart is the growth trend. The point would have been clearer if he had plotted coal on top.</p><p>
Re "oil use has to be attacked", it will be - by peak oil.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by greentiger</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:19:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Jon,</strong></p><p>I had the same thought exactly--Wow oil causes that many emissions! &nbsp;I guess Ken is right, these overlay graphs always trick me because the high growth rate seems to carry over to the graphs on top. &nbsp;Wish I had the actual data to play with. &nbsp;</p><p>
I'd be interested in seeing these as a function of mt-C per capita, as well corresponding graphs in BTUs--for instance the Russian graph is particularly interesting: the coal dropoff post-USSR has not recovered, but you'll notice their emissions are starting to rise, albeit slowly, probably as they've started to embrace their NG reserves.</p><p>
It's unfortunate that Germany doesn't have more emissions from NG, then their graph would like a mixed-up German flag.</p>
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				<p><strong>Jon,</strong></p><p>I had the same thought exactly--Wow oil causes that many emissions! &nbsp;I guess Ken is right, these overlay graphs always trick me because the high growth rate seems to carry over to the graphs on top. &nbsp;Wish I had the actual data to play with. &nbsp;</p><p>
I'd be interested in seeing these as a function of mt-C per capita, as well corresponding graphs in BTUs--for instance the Russian graph is particularly interesting: the coal dropoff post-USSR has not recovered, but you'll notice their emissions are starting to rise, albeit slowly, probably as they've started to embrace their NG reserves.</p><p>
It's unfortunate that Germany doesn't have more emissions from NG, then their graph would like a mixed-up German flag.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by vakibs</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:43:48 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>it is coal, not oil</strong></p><p><b> @Jon </b></p><p>
As a scientist, what concerns Dr Hansen are the concentrations of CO2 levels in the atmosphere. As these levels climb up, the effects on climate change will become worse and worse. </p><p>
Also as a scientist, Dr Hansen doesn't care about whether we increase these CO2 levels right now or 10 years into the future. It is all the same from a climate change perspective. </p><p>
Why is Dr Hansen not worried about oil ? </p><p>
Because we don't have too much oil anyways. It is all going to get burnt up. And even then, the CO2 levels in the atmosphere will not be beyond hope. What makes crucial difference is the amount of coal we leave unburnt. </p><p>
<b>Instead of thinking like an activist, try to think like a scientist.</b> Then you will get a longer perspective into the future. </p><p>
<b>Also, everyone please check the references to the book of Tom Blees "Prescriptions for the Planet" &nbsp;mentioned by Dr Hansen. </b> Tom is a first rate chap and he is with us on gristmill as President Lindsay. <br>
</br></p>
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				<p><strong>it is coal, not oil</strong></p><p><b> @Jon </b></p><p>
As a scientist, what concerns Dr Hansen are the concentrations of CO2 levels in the atmosphere. As these levels climb up, the effects on climate change will become worse and worse. </p><p>
Also as a scientist, Dr Hansen doesn't care about whether we increase these CO2 levels right now or 10 years into the future. It is all the same from a climate change perspective. </p><p>
Why is Dr Hansen not worried about oil ? </p><p>
Because we don't have too much oil anyways. It is all going to get burnt up. And even then, the CO2 levels in the atmosphere will not be beyond hope. What makes crucial difference is the amount of coal we leave unburnt. </p><p>
<b>Instead of thinking like an activist, try to think like a scientist.</b> Then you will get a longer perspective into the future. </p><p>
<b>Also, everyone please check the references to the book of Tom Blees "Prescriptions for the Planet" &nbsp;mentioned by Dr Hansen. </b> Tom is a first rate chap and he is with us on gristmill as President Lindsay. <br>
</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Jonas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 20:33:57 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>High coal prices offer opportunity<p>Skyrocketing demand for coal has tripled to quadrupled prices ($150 for thermal coal / $300 for coking coal). This presents an opportunity to push renewables. <p>
I see the most ready solution for India and China in fuel switching in existing coal plants and in the many coal-fired 'captive power plants' that are popping up there every day.<p>
They should start with co-firing torrefied biomass pellets, build that up, and gradually phase out the use of coal. Torrefied biomass pellets can replace all coal in conventional coal plants (in contrast with first-gen pellets, which can be co-fired at a max. rate of only 10 to 15%).<p>
The major revolution is that the torrefaction process yields energy dense pellets that can be used in existing infrastructures, so there's no need to build dedicated biomass power plants, grinders, storage space, new grids, etc... The entire infrastructure of the existing coal plant can be used.<p>
This makes it the cheapest coal beating option currently available. <p>
Torrefied pellets also allow for far more efficient logistics and longer transport chains (distances for first-gen pellets can be squared when the biomass is torrefied first, making long distance trade - over thousands of kilometers - highly feasible). <p>
The first big torrefaction plant is operational in the Netherlands, and that company is aggresively moving towards India and China (check: <a href="http://www.topell.nl/" rel="nofollow">Topell.com).<p>
India has a potential biomass waste reserve capable of supplying a total capacity of 30GW, China's is bigger. But many energy plantations can be established in the region, on degraded or eroded land, and the pellets transported via existing coal chains.<p>
The key factor in this entire debate is the competitiveness of the alternative to coal. And given very high coal prices, some renewables stand a chance of breaking through. Once they're put in place, they won't be taken off the market. </p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>High coal prices offer opportunity<p>Skyrocketing demand for coal has tripled to quadrupled prices ($150 for thermal coal / $300 for coking coal). This presents an opportunity to push renewables. <p>
I see the most ready solution for India and China in fuel switching in existing coal plants and in the many coal-fired 'captive power plants' that are popping up there every day.<p>
They should start with co-firing torrefied biomass pellets, build that up, and gradually phase out the use of coal. Torrefied biomass pellets can replace all coal in conventional coal plants (in contrast with first-gen pellets, which can be co-fired at a max. rate of only 10 to 15%).<p>
The major revolution is that the torrefaction process yields energy dense pellets that can be used in existing infrastructures, so there's no need to build dedicated biomass power plants, grinders, storage space, new grids, etc... The entire infrastructure of the existing coal plant can be used.<p>
This makes it the cheapest coal beating option currently available. <p>
Torrefied pellets also allow for far more efficient logistics and longer transport chains (distances for first-gen pellets can be squared when the biomass is torrefied first, making long distance trade - over thousands of kilometers - highly feasible). <p>
The first big torrefaction plant is operational in the Netherlands, and that company is aggresively moving towards India and China (check: <a href="http://www.topell.nl/" rel="nofollow">Topell.com).<p>
India has a potential biomass waste reserve capable of supplying a total capacity of 30GW, China's is bigger. But many energy plantations can be established in the region, on degraded or eroded land, and the pellets transported via existing coal chains.<p>
The key factor in this entire debate is the competitiveness of the alternative to coal. And given very high coal prices, some renewables stand a chance of breaking through. Once they're put in place, they won't be taken off the market. </p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by vakibs</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 21:01:31 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Did you see the black curve going up ??</strong></p><p><b> @Jonas </b></p><p>
If you look at the picture in the post above, you see how rapidly the black curve going up for China and India. With depleting oil and natural gas, it will be coal that will fill up the energy needs for China and India (both have copious amounts of coal). </p><p>
The energy consumption per capita (in kilograms of oil equivalent / year) : </p><p>
USA : 7794.8<br>
UK : 3918.1<br>
France : 4518.4</p><p>
China : 1138.3<br>
India : 512.4</p><p>
These numbers will rise up to both China and India to around 3000. Most of this demand will be filled up by coal, if alternatives are not quickly available. </p><p>
Biomass can be good but cannot replace even a fraction of this demand. <br>
</br></br></br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Did you see the black curve going up ??</strong></p><p><b> @Jonas </b></p><p>
If you look at the picture in the post above, you see how rapidly the black curve going up for China and India. With depleting oil and natural gas, it will be coal that will fill up the energy needs for China and India (both have copious amounts of coal). </p><p>
The energy consumption per capita (in kilograms of oil equivalent / year) : </p><p>
USA : 7794.8<br>
UK : 3918.1<br>
France : 4518.4</p><p>
China : 1138.3<br>
India : 512.4</p><p>
These numbers will rise up to both China and India to around 3000. Most of this demand will be filled up by coal, if alternatives are not quickly available. </p><p>
Biomass can be good but cannot replace even a fraction of this demand. <br>
</br></br></br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by xss500</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:44:55 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/7</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Thanks<p>I am thankful to you for allowing me posting.<br>
<a href="http://www.treatmentcenters.org/nevada" rel="nofollow">Nevada Treatment Centers</a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Thanks<p>I am thankful to you for allowing me posting.<br>
<a href="http://www.treatmentcenters.org/nevada" rel="nofollow">Nevada Treatment Centers</a></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 01:10:32 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>So with Hansen's math</strong></p><p>we could burn all of the oil and still wind up at 350ppm? </p><p>
There's a danger to what he's saying, because if we ignore the oil problem, and don't make alternatives a central plank of a mitigation platform, then his worst fears have a better chance of occuring, that is, in order to replace oil, tar sands/shale will be developed, or coal-to-liquid will make it much more difficult to stop the use of coal (and a much greater biofuel use would lead to disastrous deforestation). &nbsp;So I'm not just thinking like an activist here, the rumblings from expensive oil are scary enough to think that the oil problem must be tackled.</p><p>
I understand why he doesn't want to go there, because it's actually much more straightforward to replace coal at this point than to replace oil, because if people want big,heavy,fast,long-distance cars, and if they don't want to live in denser environments with more transit, there's no way out. &nbsp;So better to concentrate on the more straightforward replacement of coal with solar/wind/geothermal. &nbsp;But people should be aware of the potential problems going forward.</p>
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				<p><strong>So with Hansen's math</strong></p><p>we could burn all of the oil and still wind up at 350ppm? </p><p>
There's a danger to what he's saying, because if we ignore the oil problem, and don't make alternatives a central plank of a mitigation platform, then his worst fears have a better chance of occuring, that is, in order to replace oil, tar sands/shale will be developed, or coal-to-liquid will make it much more difficult to stop the use of coal (and a much greater biofuel use would lead to disastrous deforestation). &nbsp;So I'm not just thinking like an activist here, the rumblings from expensive oil are scary enough to think that the oil problem must be tackled.</p><p>
I understand why he doesn't want to go there, because it's actually much more straightforward to replace coal at this point than to replace oil, because if people want big,heavy,fast,long-distance cars, and if they don't want to live in denser environments with more transit, there's no way out. &nbsp;So better to concentrate on the more straightforward replacement of coal with solar/wind/geothermal. &nbsp;But people should be aware of the potential problems going forward.</p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by PurpleOzone</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 01:12:42 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Couple of Comments</strong></p><p>People don't talk much about oil as a material. It's too good for burning, vital for paint, plastics, medicines, dyes, components of many devices/small products -- light bulbs, hair combs, pens. Reach in any direction, you'll touch oil.</p><p>
India and China are said to be planning an additional 500 power plants.</p><p>
And, overlays often confuse me.</p>
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				<p><strong>Couple of Comments</strong></p><p>People don't talk much about oil as a material. It's too good for burning, vital for paint, plastics, medicines, dyes, components of many devices/small products -- light bulbs, hair combs, pens. Reach in any direction, you'll touch oil.</p><p>
India and China are said to be planning an additional 500 power plants.</p><p>
And, overlays often confuse me.</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 01:45:18 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>To answer the 350 ppm question</strong></p><p>from Hansen's report:if CO2 emissions from coal were phased out over the period 2010-2030, and if use of unconventional fossil fuels (tar shale, tar sands) remained negligible, atmospheric CO2 would peak at 400-425 ppm. In that case improved forestry and agricultural practices, especially reforestation, could get atmospheric CO2 back beneath 350 ppm within a century or less</p>
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				<p><strong>To answer the 350 ppm question</strong></p><p>from Hansen's report:if CO2 emissions from coal were phased out over the period 2010-2030, and if use of unconventional fossil fuels (tar shale, tar sands) remained negligible, atmospheric CO2 would peak at 400-425 ppm. In that case improved forestry and agricultural practices, especially reforestation, could get atmospheric CO2 back beneath 350 ppm within a century or less</p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Ted Nace</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 04:20:04 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>Details on Proposed New Coal Plants in Europe<p>For more details on the build-up of coal plants in Europe and elsewhere, check out this article on CoalSwarm and the linked articles on individual countries:<p>
<a href="http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Europe_and_coal" rel="nofollow">http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Europe_and_coa ...<p>
&nbsp;

<p>Help build <a href="http://coalswarm.org/" rel="nofollow">coalSwarm-- a shared informational resource on coal and alternatives to coal.</a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Details on Proposed New Coal Plants in Europe<p>For more details on the build-up of coal plants in Europe and elsewhere, check out this article on CoalSwarm and the linked articles on individual countries:<p>
<a href="http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Europe_and_coal" rel="nofollow">http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Europe_and_coa ...<p>
&nbsp;

<p>Help build <a href="http://coalswarm.org/" rel="nofollow">coalSwarm-- a shared informational resource on coal and alternatives to coal.</a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Island Press</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:06:17 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>Speaking of Dr. Hansen...<p>For any fan of his work (or detractor, or curious passerby), Island Press offers a FREE download of our 1988 title, "The Challenge of Global Warming," to commemorate the 20th anniversary of Dr. Hansen's Congressional testimony introducing the issue to the Senate Energy and National Resources Committee.<p>
You can find out more about this download, and links to related articles, at: <a href="http://www.islandpress.org/challengeofglobalwarming" rel="nofollow">http://www.islandpress.org/challengeofglobalwarming </a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Speaking of Dr. Hansen...<p>For any fan of his work (or detractor, or curious passerby), Island Press offers a FREE download of our 1988 title, "The Challenge of Global Warming," to commemorate the 20th anniversary of Dr. Hansen's Congressional testimony introducing the issue to the Senate Energy and National Resources Committee.<p>
You can find out more about this download, and links to related articles, at: <a href="http://www.islandpress.org/challengeofglobalwarming" rel="nofollow">http://www.islandpress.org/challengeofglobalwarming </a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by President Lindsay</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:03:24 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-what/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>Who needs oil?<p>People don't talk much about oil as a material. It's too good for burning, vital for paint, plastics, medicines, dyes, components of many devices/small products -- light bulbs, hair combs, pens. Reach in any direction, you'll touch oil.<p>
But we don't need it. We can derive synthesis gas from garbage, agricultural waste and industrial waste, and from that we can make all the same products. Even carbon neutral gasoline! Not only that, but we wouldn't even have to separate our garbage, just throw everything into the dumpster: poopy diapers, old drain oil, asbestos, dioxin, old car batteries, nerve gas, whatever. You can read about all this and the other technologies mentioned in Dr. Hansen's paper in <a href="http://www.prescriptionfortheplanet.com/" rel="nofollow">my book as soon as it's out, in late August.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Who needs oil?<p>People don't talk much about oil as a material. It's too good for burning, vital for paint, plastics, medicines, dyes, components of many devices/small products -- light bulbs, hair combs, pens. Reach in any direction, you'll touch oil.<p>
But we don't need it. We can derive synthesis gas from garbage, agricultural waste and industrial waste, and from that we can make all the same products. Even carbon neutral gasoline! Not only that, but we wouldn't even have to separate our garbage, just throw everything into the dumpster: poopy diapers, old drain oil, asbestos, dioxin, old car batteries, nerve gas, whatever. You can read about all this and the other technologies mentioned in Dr. Hansen's paper in <a href="http://www.prescriptionfortheplanet.com/" rel="nofollow">my book as soon as it's out, in late August.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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