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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Game over? Hardly.]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by pielke</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 03:39:16 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>check this<p>Charles-<p>
You should check the accuracy of this statement, it is scientifically incorrect, or at least incomplete:<p>
"Every percentage drop in emissions will translate into some mitigation in sea level rises, violent storms, and other harms from global warming."<p>
A reduction in the rate of emissions will only buy time, it will not have a proportional impact on those impacts, "harm reduction" as you say. &nbsp;<p>
I discuss this here:<p>
<a href="http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-2475-2006.12.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files ...<p>
Further details here:<p>
<a href="http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000923the_dismal_prospects.html" rel="nofollow">http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/cli ...</a></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>check this<p>Charles-<p>
You should check the accuracy of this statement, it is scientifically incorrect, or at least incomplete:<p>
"Every percentage drop in emissions will translate into some mitigation in sea level rises, violent storms, and other harms from global warming."<p>
A reduction in the rate of emissions will only buy time, it will not have a proportional impact on those impacts, "harm reduction" as you say. &nbsp;<p>
I discuss this here:<p>
<a href="http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files/resource-2475-2006.12.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/admin/publication_files ...<p>
Further details here:<p>
<a href="http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/climate_change/000923the_dismal_prospects.html" rel="nofollow">http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/prometheus/archives/cli ...</a></p></p></a></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by GRLCowan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 04:10:19 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Carbon tax is harmful<p>It is helpful to consider gasoline tax, heating oil tax, retailed natural gas tax, coal-mining states' coal taxes, and perhaps some I've forgotten as guaranteed profits that some of us get when the fossil fuel industry is having a good year, and also when it is having a bad one.<p>
Those of us with this pleasant connection are more influential than those without; thus, more carbon tax revenue will make us more adamant in opposing fossil fuel conservation and substitution, although typically we do not acknowledge this intention.<p>
(It is, however, virtually an acknowledgement to say that the fossil fuel industry is subsidized by government, by implication <strong>net subsidized, a lie too blatant to be believed by anyone who has seen highway speed limit enforcement. Or to recommend that gas tax revenue be used to fund conservation and alternative energy, as if, had that revenue been left to Exxon-Mobil to collect and keep, they might do the same.)<p>
--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen fan<br>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html" rel="nofollow">Oxygen expands around B fire, car goes</a></br></p></strong></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Carbon tax is harmful<p>It is helpful to consider gasoline tax, heating oil tax, retailed natural gas tax, coal-mining states' coal taxes, and perhaps some I've forgotten as guaranteed profits that some of us get when the fossil fuel industry is having a good year, and also when it is having a bad one.<p>
Those of us with this pleasant connection are more influential than those without; thus, more carbon tax revenue will make us more adamant in opposing fossil fuel conservation and substitution, although typically we do not acknowledge this intention.<p>
(It is, however, virtually an acknowledgement to say that the fossil fuel industry is subsidized by government, by implication <strong>net subsidized, a lie too blatant to be believed by anyone who has seen highway speed limit enforcement. Or to recommend that gas tax revenue be used to fund conservation and alternative energy, as if, had that revenue been left to Exxon-Mobil to collect and keep, they might do the same.)<p>
--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen fan<br>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html" rel="nofollow">Oxygen expands around B fire, car goes</a></br></p></strong></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Zarkov</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 05:40:24 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Futile RANT</strong></p><p>This world has gone completely nuts... do I care?</p><p>
DANGER do not remove the so called greenhouse gases.</p><p>
To unravel the problem of Global Climate Change will require considerable thought. The problem is not greenhouse gas but a HOT ocean and the oil membrane.</p><p>
To rapidly remove the oil membrane (as if we can) will bring on a disaster, read massive Ice Age, as never seen before.</p><p>
To remove the green house gases will lead to a precipitous cooling....</p><p>
To leave the climatic situation as it is will only make the final consequences much more bleak.</p><p>
We must play one climatic change cause against the other and slowly bring the health of the atmospheric climate and the sea, back to a natural state and in equilibrium.</p><p>
The science projected by the world's leaders is dismal and dangerous.<br>
But Mental/Metal poisoning is rife and I am sure no one will listen to sanity.</p><p>
Too bad, this Earth was a nice place to live. </br></p>
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				<p><strong>Futile RANT</strong></p><p>This world has gone completely nuts... do I care?</p><p>
DANGER do not remove the so called greenhouse gases.</p><p>
To unravel the problem of Global Climate Change will require considerable thought. The problem is not greenhouse gas but a HOT ocean and the oil membrane.</p><p>
To rapidly remove the oil membrane (as if we can) will bring on a disaster, read massive Ice Age, as never seen before.</p><p>
To remove the green house gases will lead to a precipitous cooling....</p><p>
To leave the climatic situation as it is will only make the final consequences much more bleak.</p><p>
We must play one climatic change cause against the other and slowly bring the health of the atmospheric climate and the sea, back to a natural state and in equilibrium.</p><p>
The science projected by the world's leaders is dismal and dangerous.<br>
But Mental/Metal poisoning is rife and I am sure no one will listen to sanity.</p><p>
Too bad, this Earth was a nice place to live. </br></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Geoffrey Johnson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 06:14:47 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>&quot;only buy time&quot;</strong></p><p>Mr. Pielke,</p><p>
The consequences of global warming described in the IPCC and Stern reports show that time is at a soaring premium. So what's wrong with a mitigation strategy that will "only buy time"? Time is the vehicle of innovation and adaptation. Under the guise of scientific formalism, your clarification supports the trend of political fatalism criticized above. Let's not hide the value which lies between the present moment and the (threatened) arrival of climate tipping points. In the interim, technology will advance and new generations will be born. That's our return on a reasonable carbon tax.</p><p>
GJ</p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;only buy time&quot;</strong></p><p>Mr. Pielke,</p><p>
The consequences of global warming described in the IPCC and Stern reports show that time is at a soaring premium. So what's wrong with a mitigation strategy that will "only buy time"? Time is the vehicle of innovation and adaptation. Under the guise of scientific formalism, your clarification supports the trend of political fatalism criticized above. Let's not hide the value which lies between the present moment and the (threatened) arrival of climate tipping points. In the interim, technology will advance and new generations will be born. That's our return on a reasonable carbon tax.</p><p>
GJ</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by pielke</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 06:33:54 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>GJ</strong></p><p>Thanks, I don't disagree. &nbsp;But we won't be well served by mischaracterizing the challenge. &nbsp;There is no partial solution to decarbonization -- it has to reach a level of net zero emissions at some point. &nbsp;Pointing out the reality of the challenge is not political fatalism, it is, well, reality. &nbsp;Thanks ...</p>
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				<p><strong>GJ</strong></p><p>Thanks, I don't disagree. &nbsp;But we won't be well served by mischaracterizing the challenge. &nbsp;There is no partial solution to decarbonization -- it has to reach a level of net zero emissions at some point. &nbsp;Pointing out the reality of the challenge is not political fatalism, it is, well, reality. &nbsp;Thanks ...</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by sunflower</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 06:36:49 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>The opposite of time is death</strong></p><p>Please, please, please tax carbon. &nbsp;Buy me some time. &nbsp;I can deploy solar cheaper than coal. &nbsp;I need time.</p>
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				<p><strong>The opposite of time is death</strong></p><p>Please, please, please tax carbon. &nbsp;Buy me some time. &nbsp;I can deploy solar cheaper than coal. &nbsp;I need time.</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Gar Lipow</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 06:44:56 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Tax Carbon</strong></p><p>Yes, I agree. We need to tax carbon; and to speed up the effects we need to supplement it with rule based regulation, along with public works spending for things like trains that won't happen based on individual decisions.</p>
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				<p><strong>Tax Carbon</strong></p><p>Yes, I agree. We need to tax carbon; and to speed up the effects we need to supplement it with rule based regulation, along with public works spending for things like trains that won't happen based on individual decisions.</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by GRLCowan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 09:42:47 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>It seems possible to me ...<p>that my message, that more money to the fossil fuel interests will not make them all that much more eager to support or allow CO2 emissions reduction, is not going as unheard as the various other responses in this thread would suggest.<p>
Also not going unnoticed is their very economical way of saying "tax carbon" when a more precise and accurate turn of phrase would be, "tax carbon <strong>more.<p>
--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen-energy fan<br>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html" rel="nofollow">how motoring gains nuclear cachet</a></br></p></strong></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>It seems possible to me ...<p>that my message, that more money to the fossil fuel interests will not make them all that much more eager to support or allow CO2 emissions reduction, is not going as unheard as the various other responses in this thread would suggest.<p>
Also not going unnoticed is their very economical way of saying "tax carbon" when a more precise and accurate turn of phrase would be, "tax carbon <strong>more.<p>
--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen-energy fan<br>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html" rel="nofollow">how motoring gains nuclear cachet</a></br></p></strong></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Mike Sander</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:26:40 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>But, what if...</strong></p><p>Mr. Cowan, what if a commitment is made to channel carbon-tax revenue into sequestration efforts (terra preta, geologic, whatever) and additional clean generation?</p><p>
I'm also not sure I follow you exactly on how the benefits of taxing carbon would have us support it. I certainly support cigarette taxes, but this does not make me want to smoke. Could you please explain it more precisely? Thanks!</p>
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				<p><strong>But, what if...</strong></p><p>Mr. Cowan, what if a commitment is made to channel carbon-tax revenue into sequestration efforts (terra preta, geologic, whatever) and additional clean generation?</p><p>
I'm also not sure I follow you exactly on how the benefits of taxing carbon would have us support it. I certainly support cigarette taxes, but this does not make me want to smoke. Could you please explain it more precisely? Thanks!</p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by GRLCowan</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:44:38 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-realism-demands-carbon-tax/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Taxes affect the behaviour of those who spend them<p>not just those who pay them. If your support of cigarette taxes is not disinterested because you get a government cheque, you have an incentive to want others to smoke.<p>
Does it perplex you that speed limits are not very strongly enforced? It seems to me they once were strongly enforced, but that this changed sometime in the early or mid-70s. Does anyone remember a different time for this to happen, or that it didn't happen?<p>
--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen-energy fan<br>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html" rel="nofollow">Oxygen expands around B fire, car goes</a></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Taxes affect the behaviour of those who spend them<p>not just those who pay them. If your support of cigarette taxes is not disinterested because you get a government cheque, you have an incentive to want others to smoke.<p>
Does it perplex you that speed limits are not very strongly enforced? It seems to me they once were strongly enforced, but that this changed sometime in the early or mid-70s. Does anyone remember a different time for this to happen, or that it didn't happen?<p>
--- G. R. L. Cowan, former hydrogen-energy fan<br>
<a href="http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html" rel="nofollow">Oxygen expands around B fire, car goes</a></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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