<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Day four of the UN Dispatch-Grist collaboration]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by sindark http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 05:51:22 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/1 Expectations

While it may be tactically appropriate to highlight how energy efficiency is a gain, rather than a loss, it further conditions people to feel entitled to their present lifestyles. In many cases, such lifestyles will need to be rendered economically impossible, if we are actually to curb emissions as rapidly and thoroughly as is required.

Now may not be the time to reveal the full character of what needs to be done, but the risk must be borne in mind that people who make token sacrifices will see themselves as having done their share.

a sibilant intake of breath

]]> Expectations

While it may be tactically appropriate to highlight how energy efficiency is a gain, rather than a loss, it further conditions people to feel entitled to their present lifestyles. In many cases, such lifestyles will need to be rendered economically impossible, if we are actually to curb emissions as rapidly and thoroughly as is required.

Now may not be the time to reveal the full character of what needs to be done, but the risk must be borne in mind that people who make token sacrifices will see themselves as having done their share.

a sibilant intake of breath

]]> Comment #2 by Earl Killian http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:51:00 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/2 Expectations

sindark said, "In many cases, such lifestyles will need to be rendered economically impossible."

Perhaps it would be better if such lifestyles were changed, but you have a lot of work to do to convince anyone they are economically impossible.  Saying it doesn't make it so.

I currently fuel my cars with sunshine.  It heats my house too.  What is uneconomic about this?  In fact, once the rest of the nation switches to electricity to fuel passenger travel, it will actually be saving a lot of money.  The 2002  Toyota RAV4-EV costs 2.4 cents a mile to drive using 8 cents a kWh.  Compare that to the 2002 Toyota RAV4 at 17.7 cents a mile, or the 2008 Toyota Prius at 8.9 cents a mile.  It only takes 13,631 mi2 of wind farms to power U.S. 2050 vehicle miles if they are electric, and only 682 mi2 is not dual use (e.g. you can farm or graze the same land).

]]> Expectations

sindark said, "In many cases, such lifestyles will need to be rendered economically impossible."

Perhaps it would be better if such lifestyles were changed, but you have a lot of work to do to convince anyone they are economically impossible.  Saying it doesn't make it so.

I currently fuel my cars with sunshine.  It heats my house too.  What is uneconomic about this?  In fact, once the rest of the nation switches to electricity to fuel passenger travel, it will actually be saving a lot of money.  The 2002  Toyota RAV4-EV costs 2.4 cents a mile to drive using 8 cents a kWh.  Compare that to the 2002 Toyota RAV4 at 17.7 cents a mile, or the 2008 Toyota Prius at 8.9 cents a mile.  It only takes 13,631 mi2 of wind farms to power U.S. 2050 vehicle miles if they are electric, and only 682 mi2 is not dual use (e.g. you can farm or graze the same land).

]]> Comment #3 by hapa http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:56:05 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/3 ladies and gents, step up, step up,

and watch as the a-MAZ-ing tony kreindler transforms david roberts's (well-founded) call to keep quality of life steady with less energy per capita into -- hey presto -- using the same amount of energy to GET MORE STUFF!

this is why his organization supports caps and reduction curves that would destroy us all. they practice magic.

meanwhile the heavier rising costs killing the "bottom" 80% -- medical, housing, taxes, child care, education -- go unaddressed. those prices are ok; all we need to do is grow faster, without paying people more, and every home's accounts will go back to black.

gas prices are a straw on a camel that's carrying a piano. energy productivity doesn't help with the piano.

]]> ladies and gents, step up, step up,

and watch as the a-MAZ-ing tony kreindler transforms david roberts's (well-founded) call to keep quality of life steady with less energy per capita into -- hey presto -- using the same amount of energy to GET MORE STUFF!

this is why his organization supports caps and reduction curves that would destroy us all. they practice magic.

meanwhile the heavier rising costs killing the "bottom" 80% -- medical, housing, taxes, child care, education -- go unaddressed. those prices are ok; all we need to do is grow faster, without paying people more, and every home's accounts will go back to black.

gas prices are a straw on a camel that's carrying a piano. energy productivity doesn't help with the piano.

]]> Comment #4 by birdboy http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:21:53 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/4 Americans Dream Big

To most Americans, what you've called 'efficiency' is equivalent to sacrifice. Asking them to give up their big powerful, roomy cars, trucks, and ATVs, to ride public transportation, live in small, cramped apartments, eat less meat and more local foods, and not buy every shiney new gadget that flashes on their giant T.V. screens would be like asking them to move to communist Russia. Quality of life is a perception, and to most of US, 'perfectly comfortable' means consuming large quantities. Until this changes, we will never gain the full potential of efficiency in this country.

That said, I agree that asking them to change for the environment is a waste of breath. It's going to take high prices and a depressed economy- comin' right up!

a liberal in redsville

]]> Americans Dream Big

To most Americans, what you've called 'efficiency' is equivalent to sacrifice. Asking them to give up their big powerful, roomy cars, trucks, and ATVs, to ride public transportation, live in small, cramped apartments, eat less meat and more local foods, and not buy every shiney new gadget that flashes on their giant T.V. screens would be like asking them to move to communist Russia. Quality of life is a perception, and to most of US, 'perfectly comfortable' means consuming large quantities. Until this changes, we will never gain the full potential of efficiency in this country.

That said, I agree that asking them to change for the environment is a waste of breath. It's going to take high prices and a depressed economy- comin' right up!

a liberal in redsville

]]> Comment #5 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:38:44 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/5 Quality of life is relative

Well put, David, with some caveats.

I'll pass on the gardening and I also would not want to live in most densely populated cities. I'm happy not taking vacations that fly me to the other side of the planet, to keep my thermostat at 70, and live in a small house.

The Europeans and Japanese live in homes that make ours look like castles.  

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Quality of life is relative

Well put, David, with some caveats.

I'll pass on the gardening and I also would not want to live in most densely populated cities. I'm happy not taking vacations that fly me to the other side of the planet, to keep my thermostat at 70, and live in a small house.

The Europeans and Japanese live in homes that make ours look like castles.  

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Comment #6 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:40:50 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/6 Also

much of what we consider quality of life issues, SUVs, McMansions, green lawns, are actually status symbols, which are also relative.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Also

much of what we consider quality of life issues, SUVs, McMansions, green lawns, are actually status symbols, which are also relative.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Comment #7 by hapa http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 11:44:26 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/7 ordinary people

may drive SUVs but the mcmansions are high income.

]]> ordinary people

may drive SUVs but the mcmansions are high income.

]]> Comment #8 by vincentcarragher http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:52:36 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/8 climate change ideas

Hi there;

I am from Ireland and do not really mind what you call it: greed over-consumption, 'super size me' bla, bla, bla.

I do mind other terminology. you discuss avenues into the american psyche - how the footprint of the average american might be reduced with behavioural remedies etc. You continually use the word energy efficiency - this conventionally refers to technology and guess what we are back to consumption again buying technology.

The word and the emphasis real debate shoud use is energy conservation. conservation can be met through energy efficency remedies or renewable energy technology remedies both purchase related behaviour.

we need to work however on an argument that is touched on very little by government for obvious reasons and that is sufficiency and habit type beahviour also contributing to energy conservation. Vested interests, egos and leading by example might all be reasons why we rarely see this argument.

please call it what is is energy conservation because energy efficiency in our use of that term normally refers to technology remedies. we need to talk deeper than this, we do not have to reinvent language because the words are there - energy conservation.

We do however have to reinvent - ideas, thought, beliefs, values, attitudes and maybe finally behaviour. American ans Canada are stop number one on this trip!

Nobody expects a meaningful debate to ensue where terminology is used so loosely.

Energy conservation and sufficiency are words you need in these debates.

a website detailing research where the community uses meaningful discourse/debate can be found at http://www.ul.ie/lowcarbonfutures

regards to you all

vincent carragher

]]> climate change ideas

Hi there;

I am from Ireland and do not really mind what you call it: greed over-consumption, 'super size me' bla, bla, bla.

I do mind other terminology. you discuss avenues into the american psyche - how the footprint of the average american might be reduced with behavioural remedies etc. You continually use the word energy efficiency - this conventionally refers to technology and guess what we are back to consumption again buying technology.

The word and the emphasis real debate shoud use is energy conservation. conservation can be met through energy efficency remedies or renewable energy technology remedies both purchase related behaviour.

we need to work however on an argument that is touched on very little by government for obvious reasons and that is sufficiency and habit type beahviour also contributing to energy conservation. Vested interests, egos and leading by example might all be reasons why we rarely see this argument.

please call it what is is energy conservation because energy efficiency in our use of that term normally refers to technology remedies. we need to talk deeper than this, we do not have to reinvent language because the words are there - energy conservation.

We do however have to reinvent - ideas, thought, beliefs, values, attitudes and maybe finally behaviour. American ans Canada are stop number one on this trip!

Nobody expects a meaningful debate to ensue where terminology is used so loosely.

Energy conservation and sufficiency are words you need in these debates.

a website detailing research where the community uses meaningful discourse/debate can be found at http://www.ul.ie/lowcarbonfutures

regards to you all

vincent carragher

]]> Comment #9 by archigeek http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:02:34 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/9 The fact of the matter is...

...it's not that people NEED things, it's that they WANT things. And THAT is the problem. We as Americans tend to use the words "need" and "want" interchangeably, without realising the differences between the two. Do we all need shelter over our heads? Yes. Do we need to get to work, whether it's transit or personal vehicle? Yes. Do we need a new plasma TV? No. Do we need a 5500lb vehicle to transport one person to and from work? No. Do we need clothing for ourselves and our families? Yes. Do we need to ship wool from New Zealand to China to make a scarf, and then ship that scarf to the US or Europe? No. We certainly don't need to to live in anything larger than 2500 sq ft. No one has 5-6 kids anymore, so why the desire for such large living spaces? Marketing. That desire and others are CREATED by marketing firms whose sole purpose, and that of their clients, the corporate supra-national, is to seperate you and your money. They are apparently doing a great job, by the way. This is why I have little hope for the future of the human race: corporate propaganda(marketing and advertising) has convinced us not only that we need frivolous items, but that it is our right to have them.  Try deprogramming millions upon millions of people who have been marketed to in this manner for the last 80 years and see what I'm talking about.

The mellotron is your friend.

]]> The fact of the matter is...

...it's not that people NEED things, it's that they WANT things. And THAT is the problem. We as Americans tend to use the words "need" and "want" interchangeably, without realising the differences between the two. Do we all need shelter over our heads? Yes. Do we need to get to work, whether it's transit or personal vehicle? Yes. Do we need a new plasma TV? No. Do we need a 5500lb vehicle to transport one person to and from work? No. Do we need clothing for ourselves and our families? Yes. Do we need to ship wool from New Zealand to China to make a scarf, and then ship that scarf to the US or Europe? No. We certainly don't need to to live in anything larger than 2500 sq ft. No one has 5-6 kids anymore, so why the desire for such large living spaces? Marketing. That desire and others are CREATED by marketing firms whose sole purpose, and that of their clients, the corporate supra-national, is to seperate you and your money. They are apparently doing a great job, by the way. This is why I have little hope for the future of the human race: corporate propaganda(marketing and advertising) has convinced us not only that we need frivolous items, but that it is our right to have them.  Try deprogramming millions upon millions of people who have been marketed to in this manner for the last 80 years and see what I'm talking about.

The mellotron is your friend.

]]> Comment #10 by vincentcarragher http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/ Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:13:21 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-ideas-for-on-day-one3/10 rampant consumption

Hi archigeek;

agree to the bulk of what you said - but you have to have faith.

a community in ireland has reduced its emmissions by 15% through behavioural change. some of that has been less consumption like reduction in car miles, reduction in energy use in the home etc.

it is possible but like the study i quoted intimates we must start over agin and educate the values and beliefs of the youngest generations - ASAP.

you will find that study at  www.ul.ie/lowcarbonfutures

there are many projects in europe now showing impressive and willfull and painless change in consumption behaviour.

regards

vincent

]]> rampant consumption

Hi archigeek;

agree to the bulk of what you said - but you have to have faith.

a community in ireland has reduced its emmissions by 15% through behavioural change. some of that has been less consumption like reduction in car miles, reduction in energy use in the home etc.

it is possible but like the study i quoted intimates we must start over agin and educate the values and beliefs of the youngest generations - ASAP.

you will find that study at  www.ul.ie/lowcarbonfutures

there are many projects in europe now showing impressive and willfull and painless change in consumption behaviour.

regards

vincent

]]>