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            <title>Comment #1 by cfigallo</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:28:42 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>That's a stretch...</strong></p><p>It's difficult enough getting our climate forecasting accurate enough to justify definitive action. Forecasting mass human reaction to looming scarcities? There's plenty of scarcities out there now. How many are igniting conflict?

<p>Cliff Figallo
Climate Frog
climatefrog.blogspot.com</p></p>
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				<p><strong>That's a stretch...</strong></p><p>It's difficult enough getting our climate forecasting accurate enough to justify definitive action. Forecasting mass human reaction to looming scarcities? There's plenty of scarcities out there now. How many are igniting conflict?

<p>Cliff Figallo
Climate Frog
climatefrog.blogspot.com</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Mark Leon Goldberg</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:36:46 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>conflict and climate change<p>Amen, David. I also <a href="http://www.undispatch.com/archives/2007/08/climate_and_con.php" rel="nofollow">had problems with that article, which I posted on <a href="http://www.undispatch.com" rel="nofollow">UN Dispatch, the UN affairs blog. <p>
Simply stating that climate change is a contributory factor in conflicts like Darfur is not making an excuse for the people and governments that exploit a competition for resources to their ruthless ends. <p>
The author clarly tries to hard to be what I like to call, counter-counter intuitive. &nbsp; &nbsp;</p></p></a></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>conflict and climate change<p>Amen, David. I also <a href="http://www.undispatch.com/archives/2007/08/climate_and_con.php" rel="nofollow">had problems with that article, which I posted on <a href="http://www.undispatch.com" rel="nofollow">UN Dispatch, the UN affairs blog. <p>
Simply stating that climate change is a contributory factor in conflicts like Darfur is not making an excuse for the people and governments that exploit a competition for resources to their ruthless ends. <p>
The author clarly tries to hard to be what I like to call, counter-counter intuitive. &nbsp; &nbsp;</p></p></a></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Bart Anderson</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:56:12 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Resource wars - a growth industry<p>cfigallo : There's plenty of scarcities out there now. How many are igniting conflict?<br>
There are plenty of examples of conflict over resources - especially oil. I don't think the effects of global warming are as apparent yet, but if the record of oil is any indication, we have many unpleasant surprises in store for us. This is why some military thinkers are speaking out about global warming, identifying it as a threat to national security.<p>
The prime example of resource wars is oil and World War II. Japan's entry into the war was precipitated by the U.S. cutting off its supply of oil. Much of Germany's strategy was designed to gain control of oil fields in the Soviet Union.<p>
Nowadays, we have:   Iraq war. Possible attack on Iran.<br>
US bases throughout the Mid-east and Central Asia. Some in the military and intelligence communities are not at all happy over the prospect of ongoing wars for oil.<br>
US-Venezuela tension.<br>
Tension between Russia and Europe over energy supplies.<br>
Water rights seems to be an issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.<br>
Civil wars and strife in countries with energy resources but weak governments (e.g. Nigeria and other African countries). <br>
Long history of intervention by industrialized countries into the affairs of countries with resources (e.g. US-UK toppling of Iranian government in the 1950s).

<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Resource wars - a growth industry<p>cfigallo : There's plenty of scarcities out there now. How many are igniting conflict?<br>
There are plenty of examples of conflict over resources - especially oil. I don't think the effects of global warming are as apparent yet, but if the record of oil is any indication, we have many unpleasant surprises in store for us. This is why some military thinkers are speaking out about global warming, identifying it as a threat to national security.<p>
The prime example of resource wars is oil and World War II. Japan's entry into the war was precipitated by the U.S. cutting off its supply of oil. Much of Germany's strategy was designed to gain control of oil fields in the Soviet Union.<p>
Nowadays, we have:   Iraq war. Possible attack on Iran.<br>
US bases throughout the Mid-east and Central Asia. Some in the military and intelligence communities are not at all happy over the prospect of ongoing wars for oil.<br>
US-Venezuela tension.<br>
Tension between Russia and Europe over energy supplies.<br>
Water rights seems to be an issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.<br>
Civil wars and strife in countries with energy resources but weak governments (e.g. Nigeria and other African countries). <br>
Long history of intervention by industrialized countries into the affairs of countries with resources (e.g. US-UK toppling of Iranian government in the 1950s).

<p>Bart<br>
<a href="http://energybulletin.net" rel="nofollow">Energy Bulletin</a></br></p></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by CrosbyMacDonald</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:13:23 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>No question resources are central to conflict..</strong></p><p>whether or not climate change will exacerbate conflict through increased resource scarcity can't be predicted with certainty, but it seems likely. &nbsp;</p><p>
At the least, depletion of fresh water supplies in particular and degradation of forests and other natural resources will force people to adapt and cope with less. &nbsp;Thomas Homer-Dixon has written extensively on this and puts forth some pretty interesting analysis to show a strong link between environment and conflict. </p><p>
The most solid point in the article comes at the end, and lends some credibility to earlier assertions: "How governments respond to the challenge is at least as important as climate change itself, if not more so." &nbsp;Jared Diamond's Collapse supports this assertion generally. &nbsp;It IS important what we do, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the climate factor and try to mitigate it.</p><p>
Still, you're right to point out that linking climate change to increasing conflicts lets corrupt regimes "off the hook" is a bit ridiculous - no one pushing the climate-conflict link is saying that. &nbsp;Citing a decrease in number of conflicts along with warming is also fairly misleading; we haven't seen very many severe warming impacts yet, and a multitude of other forces are also at work, as was noted above.</p><p>
Whether or not drought was a root cause of Darfur's conflict, no doubt it has exacerbated the situation by making agriculture inviable. &nbsp;</p><p>
Climate change will only worsen what is already a trend - ongoing depletion of natural resources by humanity. &nbsp;Dealing with this challenge in general will be the defining struggle of this century, I believe, and climate change will make it more difficult.</p>
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				<p><strong>No question resources are central to conflict..</strong></p><p>whether or not climate change will exacerbate conflict through increased resource scarcity can't be predicted with certainty, but it seems likely. &nbsp;</p><p>
At the least, depletion of fresh water supplies in particular and degradation of forests and other natural resources will force people to adapt and cope with less. &nbsp;Thomas Homer-Dixon has written extensively on this and puts forth some pretty interesting analysis to show a strong link between environment and conflict. </p><p>
The most solid point in the article comes at the end, and lends some credibility to earlier assertions: "How governments respond to the challenge is at least as important as climate change itself, if not more so." &nbsp;Jared Diamond's Collapse supports this assertion generally. &nbsp;It IS important what we do, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the climate factor and try to mitigate it.</p><p>
Still, you're right to point out that linking climate change to increasing conflicts lets corrupt regimes "off the hook" is a bit ridiculous - no one pushing the climate-conflict link is saying that. &nbsp;Citing a decrease in number of conflicts along with warming is also fairly misleading; we haven't seen very many severe warming impacts yet, and a multitude of other forces are also at work, as was noted above.</p><p>
Whether or not drought was a root cause of Darfur's conflict, no doubt it has exacerbated the situation by making agriculture inviable. &nbsp;</p><p>
Climate change will only worsen what is already a trend - ongoing depletion of natural resources by humanity. &nbsp;Dealing with this challenge in general will be the defining struggle of this century, I believe, and climate change will make it more difficult.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Sean Casten</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 08:51:28 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Book recommendation</strong></p><p>While no expert on the subject, I'd recommend to all interested a book called "The Little Ice Age", which documents how the abnormally cold climates in the renaissance era up until the mid 1800s directly impacted major geopolitical trends, from the Napoloenic wars (driven by expansionist urges from Frances inability to feed itself - remember "let them eat cake") to new world explorations by folks sick of scrapping for resources in the Old World.</p><p>
Even if one accepts that there are a multiplicity of causes, it doesn't seem a stretch to concede that environmental shifts create population pressures, and even if these are localized, that will impact politics. &nbsp;</p><p>
And if nothing else, it's just an interesting book.</p>
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				<p><strong>Book recommendation</strong></p><p>While no expert on the subject, I'd recommend to all interested a book called "The Little Ice Age", which documents how the abnormally cold climates in the renaissance era up until the mid 1800s directly impacted major geopolitical trends, from the Napoloenic wars (driven by expansionist urges from Frances inability to feed itself - remember "let them eat cake") to new world explorations by folks sick of scrapping for resources in the Old World.</p><p>
Even if one accepts that there are a multiplicity of causes, it doesn't seem a stretch to concede that environmental shifts create population pressures, and even if these are localized, that will impact politics. &nbsp;</p><p>
And if nothing else, it's just an interesting book.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by sort of like an AUK</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 02:56:37 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>What the (retired) brass has to say<p>And then there is the group of retired 3 and 4 star generals and admirals who think <a href="http://securityandclimate.cna.org/" rel="nofollow">global warming will be a "threat multiplier." I think they might know a thing or two about conflicts and what causes them...</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>What the (retired) brass has to say<p>And then there is the group of retired 3 and 4 star generals and admirals who think <a href="http://securityandclimate.cna.org/" rel="nofollow">global warming will be a "threat multiplier." I think they might know a thing or two about conflicts and what causes them...</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by sindark</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 04:14:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-change-and-conflict-a-myth/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Another relevant bit of writing</strong></p><p>David Deudney's chapter on "Security" in Andrew Dobson's "Political Theory and the Ecological Challenge" includes some interesting ideas about possible links between environmental degradation and wars.</p><p>
He concludes by saying:</p><p>
"Environmental degradation is not a threat to national security. Rather, environmentalism is a threat to the conceptual hegemony of state-centred national security discourses and institutions. For environmentalists to dress their programs in the blood-soaked garments of the war system betrays their core values and creates confusion about the real tasks at hand."</p>
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				<p><strong>Another relevant bit of writing</strong></p><p>David Deudney's chapter on "Security" in Andrew Dobson's "Political Theory and the Ecological Challenge" includes some interesting ideas about possible links between environmental degradation and wars.</p><p>
He concludes by saying:</p><p>
"Environmental degradation is not a threat to national security. Rather, environmentalism is a threat to the conceptual hegemony of state-centred national security discourses and institutions. For environmentalists to dress their programs in the blood-soaked garments of the war system betrays their core values and creates confusion about the real tasks at hand."</p>
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