<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
<channel>
	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for A guest essay from Jan Lundberg]]></title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.grist.org/rss/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<description>Grist Comment Feed</description>
	<language>en</language>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #1 by kman</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:04:19 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/1</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>I need help</strong></p><p>I'm trying to understand something so that i can explain it to others. Let's say that things change, but we only manage to make it to the low end of the UN projections by 2100. </p><p>
What are the effects of the 0.74 C warming we've seen over the last century, i.e. how bad is it?</p><p>
Also, how bad would a 2 C warming by 2100 be, i.e. what would be effects of it?</p><p>
Some resources would be very helpful. Thanks!</p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>I need help</strong></p><p>I'm trying to understand something so that i can explain it to others. Let's say that things change, but we only manage to make it to the low end of the UN projections by 2100. </p><p>
What are the effects of the 0.74 C warming we've seen over the last century, i.e. how bad is it?</p><p>
Also, how bad would a 2 C warming by 2100 be, i.e. what would be effects of it?</p><p>
Some resources would be very helpful. Thanks!</p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #2 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:00:58 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/2</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Jan --</strong></p><p>You're still not being clear about the mix of technologies that we should be opting towards. &nbsp;What are your energy suggestions? &nbsp;No electricity? If so, how to heat? No industrial processes? If so, do we burn wood unsustainably in order to have blacksmithing? &nbsp;To what level of technology do you want to go? &nbsp;I think that cars and coal and industrial agriculture have ruined the planet, but I still don't see a full-blown alternative to our present civilization in your post. &nbsp;I agree that Tidwell's points aren't nearly enough -- very few do have solutions that fit the problems, but please explain, how does transportation, energy, food, manufacturing, health, and education work without fossil fuels, because that is what we are eventually talking about.</p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Jan --</strong></p><p>You're still not being clear about the mix of technologies that we should be opting towards. &nbsp;What are your energy suggestions? &nbsp;No electricity? If so, how to heat? No industrial processes? If so, do we burn wood unsustainably in order to have blacksmithing? &nbsp;To what level of technology do you want to go? &nbsp;I think that cars and coal and industrial agriculture have ruined the planet, but I still don't see a full-blown alternative to our present civilization in your post. &nbsp;I agree that Tidwell's points aren't nearly enough -- very few do have solutions that fit the problems, but please explain, how does transportation, energy, food, manufacturing, health, and education work without fossil fuels, because that is what we are eventually talking about.</p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #3 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:40:23 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/3</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>The question I'd ask</strong></p><p>The question I'd ask,<br>
Wouldn't our effort be better spent convincing our representatives to pass better laws?</p><p>
Since you run into a paradox, that if lots of people didn't drive, wouldn't that merely lower the price of gasoline, and then cause others to drive more.</br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>The question I'd ask</strong></p><p>The question I'd ask,<br>
Wouldn't our effort be better spent convincing our representatives to pass better laws?</p><p>
Since you run into a paradox, that if lots of people didn't drive, wouldn't that merely lower the price of gasoline, and then cause others to drive more.</br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #4 by Colin Wright</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 16:26:59 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/4</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Working at all levels...<p>Jan, as I read the Tidwell piece, he seemed to be criticizing voluntary actions as opposed to government action. <p>
You seem to criticize him for proposing "technofixes". But you don't really address his point that we have to pressure government to pass strong laws. Presumably you think things are too far gone for that?<p>
But surely it does't have to be either/or. We can build grassroots movements and lead low-energy lifestyles. But we can also lobby for effective laws that could put limits on carbon emissions. Indeed, even with <a href="http://www.energybulletin.net/34357.html" rel="nofollow">Peak Everything we are going to need government action to keep carbon below 450ppm, and depletion protocols to make the transition to a low-(car)bon society as smooth as possible.<p>
&nbsp;</p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Working at all levels...<p>Jan, as I read the Tidwell piece, he seemed to be criticizing voluntary actions as opposed to government action. <p>
You seem to criticize him for proposing "technofixes". But you don't really address his point that we have to pressure government to pass strong laws. Presumably you think things are too far gone for that?<p>
But surely it does't have to be either/or. We can build grassroots movements and lead low-energy lifestyles. But we can also lobby for effective laws that could put limits on carbon emissions. Indeed, even with <a href="http://www.energybulletin.net/34357.html" rel="nofollow">Peak Everything we are going to need government action to keep carbon below 450ppm, and depletion protocols to make the transition to a low-(car)bon society as smooth as possible.<p>
&nbsp;</p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #5 by odograph</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:01:38 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/5</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>democracy</strong></p><p>I recognize that my Prius, or my low-flow showerhead, will not by themselves save the world. &nbsp;At the same time, I recognize that in a democracy no one "sneaks by" a bill enforcing huge national change and conservation.</p><p>
A democracy, for better or worse, requires a consensus.</p><p>
Tidwell might as well be criticizing fasting, as something that won't mean anything in and of itself. &nbsp;("so what if a few people stop eating for a few days?") &nbsp;But fasting and Priuses and showerheads might be part of a movement, they might get us to a tipping point.</p><p>
And we desperately need a tipping point. &nbsp;We need the kind of consensus, in a democracy, that will allow regulations with teeth to bring along the laggards.</p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>democracy</strong></p><p>I recognize that my Prius, or my low-flow showerhead, will not by themselves save the world. &nbsp;At the same time, I recognize that in a democracy no one "sneaks by" a bill enforcing huge national change and conservation.</p><p>
A democracy, for better or worse, requires a consensus.</p><p>
Tidwell might as well be criticizing fasting, as something that won't mean anything in and of itself. &nbsp;("so what if a few people stop eating for a few days?") &nbsp;But fasting and Priuses and showerheads might be part of a movement, they might get us to a tipping point.</p><p>
And we desperately need a tipping point. &nbsp;We need the kind of consensus, in a democracy, that will allow regulations with teeth to bring along the laggards.</p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #6 by lorna salzman</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 04:12:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/6</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Lundberg and the big change we need</strong></p><p>Is anyone listening? Lundberg is saying that to date, neither individuals nor activists nor congress have proposed or taken action anywhere near commensurate with the imminent threat. Fasting on the steps of congress and shouting for renewable energy do not bring political change. What is needed is 1)Unity. &nbsp;2)A tough set of demands presented to congress, &nbsp;and circulated in a widespread citizen petition nationwide, to include carbon taxes, gasoline taxes, gasoline rationing, mandatory reductions in energy consumption and efficiency standards, termination of all fossil fuel and ethanol subsidies; 3) formation of a PAC to run candidates for congress against those who do not support this program. 4)a public statement by scientists on the global emergency, with a Million Scientist March on Washington supporting these demands; 5)full page ads in major city newspapers supporting a 90% cut in greenhouse gases by 2030, with the above demands implemented to achieve this; 6)boycott of all goods imported by airplane; 7)Business Transfer Assessment, taxing hugely goods produced by and transported from large CO2 emitters;<br>
8)Full Cost pricing of all goods to internalize the real costs of production and consumption;<br>
9)Immediate halt to deforestation worldwide in the tropics; 10)boycott of all soybean, sugar and cattle produced in Brazil and other cleared tropical lowland forest;<br>
&nbsp;</br></br></br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Lundberg and the big change we need</strong></p><p>Is anyone listening? Lundberg is saying that to date, neither individuals nor activists nor congress have proposed or taken action anywhere near commensurate with the imminent threat. Fasting on the steps of congress and shouting for renewable energy do not bring political change. What is needed is 1)Unity. &nbsp;2)A tough set of demands presented to congress, &nbsp;and circulated in a widespread citizen petition nationwide, to include carbon taxes, gasoline taxes, gasoline rationing, mandatory reductions in energy consumption and efficiency standards, termination of all fossil fuel and ethanol subsidies; 3) formation of a PAC to run candidates for congress against those who do not support this program. 4)a public statement by scientists on the global emergency, with a Million Scientist March on Washington supporting these demands; 5)full page ads in major city newspapers supporting a 90% cut in greenhouse gases by 2030, with the above demands implemented to achieve this; 6)boycott of all goods imported by airplane; 7)Business Transfer Assessment, taxing hugely goods produced by and transported from large CO2 emitters;<br>
8)Full Cost pricing of all goods to internalize the real costs of production and consumption;<br>
9)Immediate halt to deforestation worldwide in the tropics; 10)boycott of all soybean, sugar and cattle produced in Brazil and other cleared tropical lowland forest;<br>
&nbsp;</br></br></br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #7 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 04:27:48 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/7</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Lundberg didn't have that list...<p>...you have a good list. &nbsp;However, I'm not trying to criticize but simply to point out that, in addition, if we want to go beyond the first steps that you itemized, that is, get to the 90% cut in emissions, we're basically talking the end of fossil-fuel (and maybe fuels in general)use, and neither he nor anyone else has laid that out (except, if I may be so bold, I wrote an article called <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1115&amp;Itemid=101" rel="nofollow">"How to create an efficient fossil-fuel free economy", and <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1305&amp;Itemid=101" rel="nofollow">a "post-oil democracy" article, and I've <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/5/21/124449/010" rel="nofollow">blogged about it)<p>
In addition, Lundberg seems to believe that we should reject virtually all of industrial technology; or at least that seems to be the implication; but I think we should be engaged in a rational discussion of which technologies should be rejected and which shouldn't.</p></a></a></a></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Lundberg didn't have that list...<p>...you have a good list. &nbsp;However, I'm not trying to criticize but simply to point out that, in addition, if we want to go beyond the first steps that you itemized, that is, get to the 90% cut in emissions, we're basically talking the end of fossil-fuel (and maybe fuels in general)use, and neither he nor anyone else has laid that out (except, if I may be so bold, I wrote an article called <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1115&amp;Itemid=101" rel="nofollow">"How to create an efficient fossil-fuel free economy", and <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1305&amp;Itemid=101" rel="nofollow">a "post-oil democracy" article, and I've <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/5/21/124449/010" rel="nofollow">blogged about it)<p>
In addition, Lundberg seems to believe that we should reject virtually all of industrial technology; or at least that seems to be the implication; but I think we should be engaged in a rational discussion of which technologies should be rejected and which shouldn't.</p></a></a></a></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #8 by odograph</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 04:52:23 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/8</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>tipping point<p>For those who haven't heard of the phrase in it's recent popular sense, here is <a href="http://www.gladwell.com/tippingpoint/index.html" rel="nofollow">Malcom Gladell's tipping point FAQ</a></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>tipping point<p>For those who haven't heard of the phrase in it's recent popular sense, here is <a href="http://www.gladwell.com/tippingpoint/index.html" rel="nofollow">Malcom Gladell's tipping point FAQ</a></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #9 by Rachel Findley</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 04:55:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/9</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Joy</strong></p><p>"there can be joy in losing the consumer economy..."</p><p>
I can speak to that, from personal experience. But I know plenty of other people who find the prospect of losing their stuff and wide-ranging travel a real threat. </p><p>
The more people who opt out, and who clearly enjoy their new ways of living, the less threatening the transition will look. It will really start to look like fun when we build communities to support new ways of living, economically, medically, educationally and personally. </p><p>
If there is no broad agreement on goals, coercion is not likely to work much better than Prohibition or mass sterilization in India in the Seventies. With broad agreement on goals and values, incentives or coercion can work to "bring along the laggards" as odograph put it. &nbsp;In a democracy (or even in the absence of democracy) a lack of consent will bring down a government or at least prevent its laws from working. </p><p>
With consensus, people will change the way they live and accept regulations that support the consensus. Think of WWII--not just rationing but the draft, blackouts, Victory gardens, war bonds, displacement of Japanese people... you really do have to think about what the consensus includes; it can be life-destroying and &nbsp;life-affirming simlutaneously; propaganda can, for awhile anyway, support measures that are toxic to the body public.</p><p>
Does it seem like it will take too long to reach a broad agreement on measures that protect the environment and support democracy, equality, culture? Maybe it will--so we had better get going. </p><p>
Lots of joy. Quick. Now. <br>
</br></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Joy</strong></p><p>"there can be joy in losing the consumer economy..."</p><p>
I can speak to that, from personal experience. But I know plenty of other people who find the prospect of losing their stuff and wide-ranging travel a real threat. </p><p>
The more people who opt out, and who clearly enjoy their new ways of living, the less threatening the transition will look. It will really start to look like fun when we build communities to support new ways of living, economically, medically, educationally and personally. </p><p>
If there is no broad agreement on goals, coercion is not likely to work much better than Prohibition or mass sterilization in India in the Seventies. With broad agreement on goals and values, incentives or coercion can work to "bring along the laggards" as odograph put it. &nbsp;In a democracy (or even in the absence of democracy) a lack of consent will bring down a government or at least prevent its laws from working. </p><p>
With consensus, people will change the way they live and accept regulations that support the consensus. Think of WWII--not just rationing but the draft, blackouts, Victory gardens, war bonds, displacement of Japanese people... you really do have to think about what the consensus includes; it can be life-destroying and &nbsp;life-affirming simlutaneously; propaganda can, for awhile anyway, support measures that are toxic to the body public.</p><p>
Does it seem like it will take too long to reach a broad agreement on measures that protect the environment and support democracy, equality, culture? Maybe it will--so we had better get going. </p><p>
Lots of joy. Quick. Now. <br>
</br></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #10 by rghusted</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 05:14:43 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/10</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>What if the key is a techno fix?</strong></p><p>A large part of our un-sustainability is our transportation system that relies on automobiles. &nbsp;Unfortunately for Americans our entire infrastructure has been designed around the car rather than pedestrians. &nbsp;To get where we need to go &nbsp;the car will have to be abandoned and public-mobility systems (eg people movers and light rail) will network "sustainable suburbs" to existing cities and market centers. &nbsp;As David notes in his piece, for our society to re-invent ourselves in this way will require "inspired Churchillian leadership". &nbsp; Unfortunately I haven't seen any leadership lately, let alone any-one Churchill-like :-(</p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>What if the key is a techno fix?</strong></p><p>A large part of our un-sustainability is our transportation system that relies on automobiles. &nbsp;Unfortunately for Americans our entire infrastructure has been designed around the car rather than pedestrians. &nbsp;To get where we need to go &nbsp;the car will have to be abandoned and public-mobility systems (eg people movers and light rail) will network "sustainable suburbs" to existing cities and market centers. &nbsp;As David notes in his piece, for our society to re-invent ourselves in this way will require "inspired Churchillian leadership". &nbsp; Unfortunately I haven't seen any leadership lately, let alone any-one Churchill-like :-(</p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #11 by socialscientist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:18:54 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/11</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>free public transit<p>lorna..<br>
good ideas... add free public transit. <p>
The more people ride the more frequent the service will have to be. Towns and cities will be more attractive. Move back to town and give the farms back to the [organic] farmers.<p>
<a href="http://www.freepublictransit.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.freepublictransit.org the beginning of the end of autosprawl</a></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>free public transit<p>lorna..<br>
good ideas... add free public transit. <p>
The more people ride the more frequent the service will have to be. Towns and cities will be more attractive. Move back to town and give the farms back to the [organic] farmers.<p>
<a href="http://www.freepublictransit.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.freepublictransit.org the beginning of the end of autosprawl</a></p></p></br></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #12 by Nucbuddy</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:30:08 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/12</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Nuclear-powered shipping<p><b>Jon Rynn wrote: I wrote [...] <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1305&amp;Itemid=101" rel="nofollow">a "post-oil democracy" article<p>
...And in that article you stated, "Whether huge cargo ships can keep plying the seas without fossil fuels is doubtful." However, <a href="http://www.uic.com.au/nip32.htm" rel="nofollow">nuclear-powered shipping is an option that has already been established as viable.<br>
</br></a></p></a></b></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Nuclear-powered shipping<p><b>Jon Rynn wrote: I wrote [...] <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1305&amp;Itemid=101" rel="nofollow">a "post-oil democracy" article<p>
...And in that article you stated, "Whether huge cargo ships can keep plying the seas without fossil fuels is doubtful." However, <a href="http://www.uic.com.au/nip32.htm" rel="nofollow">nuclear-powered shipping is an option that has already been established as viable.<br>
</br></a></p></a></b></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #13 by SMLowry</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:10:51 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/13</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>More issues to face</strong></p><p>Good to see Jan's article here. He's been working on these issues for many years and I know has many creative ideas and real-life examples such as SCALLOPS for alternatives to our greedy, fossil-fuel dependent society. I love Lorna's list as well. Here are two more issues that must be addressed, and I bring them up because they impact me personally, and what I can do to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. One has to do with those of us who live in rural areas with no public transportation and none in sight. Without regular, reliable public transportation we must continue to drive to work. We could run other errands with less regular transportation, but no matter how understanding our employers may be, we still need to get to work on time. The other has to do with the need to work to earn money to pay neccessary bills like rent/mortgage, energy expenses, etc. As I see it, if people worked outside the home fewer hours we'd have more time for activities like raising/growing food and preserving it (both are very time-consuming), working with and helping neighbors (thereby creating real community), learning and practicing home health care (as opposed to expensive, technological, chemicalized health care) volunteering for the necessary projects that must be done at the community level to ensure safety and even survival as things get more difficult, and so on. We cannot go back in time but we must learn many of the skills we have now forgotten or abandonned over the past fifty or so years. Our current mindset re: work, "free" time, leisure, hiring people to do what we don't have the skills or time to do for ourselves, children moving hundreds miles away from their family (and thus unable to help aging parents who are then put into "assisted living" situations when they can no longer live totally on their own . . . I could go on . . . must transform. And activists working on climate change and fossil fuel issues need to look beyond cities and suburbs and realize people still live in the country and likely will continue to do so. &nbsp;</p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>More issues to face</strong></p><p>Good to see Jan's article here. He's been working on these issues for many years and I know has many creative ideas and real-life examples such as SCALLOPS for alternatives to our greedy, fossil-fuel dependent society. I love Lorna's list as well. Here are two more issues that must be addressed, and I bring them up because they impact me personally, and what I can do to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. One has to do with those of us who live in rural areas with no public transportation and none in sight. Without regular, reliable public transportation we must continue to drive to work. We could run other errands with less regular transportation, but no matter how understanding our employers may be, we still need to get to work on time. The other has to do with the need to work to earn money to pay neccessary bills like rent/mortgage, energy expenses, etc. As I see it, if people worked outside the home fewer hours we'd have more time for activities like raising/growing food and preserving it (both are very time-consuming), working with and helping neighbors (thereby creating real community), learning and practicing home health care (as opposed to expensive, technological, chemicalized health care) volunteering for the necessary projects that must be done at the community level to ensure safety and even survival as things get more difficult, and so on. We cannot go back in time but we must learn many of the skills we have now forgotten or abandonned over the past fifty or so years. Our current mindset re: work, "free" time, leisure, hiring people to do what we don't have the skills or time to do for ourselves, children moving hundreds miles away from their family (and thus unable to help aging parents who are then put into "assisted living" situations when they can no longer live totally on their own . . . I could go on . . . must transform. And activists working on climate change and fossil fuel issues need to look beyond cities and suburbs and realize people still live in the country and likely will continue to do so. &nbsp;</p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #14 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:13:03 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/14</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Rural areas...</strong></p><p>...it seems to me, and I think this synchronizes nicely with what socialscientist was saying, should become our (hopefully permaculture type) organic gardens, and if so, a very efficient transportation system will have to be set up, if for no other reason than to get the food to population centers -- which will hopefully not be sprawled-out surburbia, which will make food distribution much more difficult. &nbsp;After all, in the 19th century the biggest driver of railroad construction was to give access for midwest farmers to city markets.</p><p>
Nucbuddy -- Thanks for reading my diatribe, I hadn't thought of nuclear-powered cargo ships, I don't know if those would be as economical as diesel-powered ones; whether I like it or not, I suppose that option will be explored.</p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Rural areas...</strong></p><p>...it seems to me, and I think this synchronizes nicely with what socialscientist was saying, should become our (hopefully permaculture type) organic gardens, and if so, a very efficient transportation system will have to be set up, if for no other reason than to get the food to population centers -- which will hopefully not be sprawled-out surburbia, which will make food distribution much more difficult. &nbsp;After all, in the 19th century the biggest driver of railroad construction was to give access for midwest farmers to city markets.</p><p>
Nucbuddy -- Thanks for reading my diatribe, I hadn't thought of nuclear-powered cargo ships, I don't know if those would be as economical as diesel-powered ones; whether I like it or not, I suppose that option will be explored.</p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #15 by SMLowry</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 02:01:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/15</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Re: Rural areas</strong></p><p>Certainly food production is something that can, and should, be done in rural areas. And permaculture is a wonderfully elegant system, though it would need to be adapted for larger gardens. My understanding of permaculture is that it's more homestead scale or at the most, smallish community scale and the goal is to have more small farms/gardens, that produce a diversity of foods while also making use of and discovering/experimenting with the food/fuel possibilities of native plants. Unfortunately, much of the best agricultural land is rapidly being converted to development, malls, roads, and parking lots. I also believe it's possible for urban centers to grow a percentage of their own food in vacant lots, parks, and on rooftops, which would also add greatly to the quality of city life, or so I would think. Even in rural areas it makes sense to encourage thicker settlement in and around towns and villages while discouraging the sprawl that currently exists. Also there used to be many more small towns in rural areas than there are now thanks to consolidation. One can see abandonned or converted town halls, churches, schools, mills, etc. I would love to see a revitalization of small town life rather than the current trend towards bedroom communities that basically serve as housing for workers who drive many miles to the nearest population center to work. But that would mean looking at the work we do and why we do it and addressing the role debt plays and our often desperate need for federal dollars.</p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Re: Rural areas</strong></p><p>Certainly food production is something that can, and should, be done in rural areas. And permaculture is a wonderfully elegant system, though it would need to be adapted for larger gardens. My understanding of permaculture is that it's more homestead scale or at the most, smallish community scale and the goal is to have more small farms/gardens, that produce a diversity of foods while also making use of and discovering/experimenting with the food/fuel possibilities of native plants. Unfortunately, much of the best agricultural land is rapidly being converted to development, malls, roads, and parking lots. I also believe it's possible for urban centers to grow a percentage of their own food in vacant lots, parks, and on rooftops, which would also add greatly to the quality of city life, or so I would think. Even in rural areas it makes sense to encourage thicker settlement in and around towns and villages while discouraging the sprawl that currently exists. Also there used to be many more small towns in rural areas than there are now thanks to consolidation. One can see abandonned or converted town halls, churches, schools, mills, etc. I would love to see a revitalization of small town life rather than the current trend towards bedroom communities that basically serve as housing for workers who drive many miles to the nearest population center to work. But that would mean looking at the work we do and why we do it and addressing the role debt plays and our often desperate need for federal dollars.</p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
		<item>
            <title>Comment #16 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 04:15:23 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/climate-cant-wait-for-techno-fixes/16</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Speaking of utopia...<p>...see my <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/9/6/122119/4154#comment1" rel="nofollow">comment in "Paving the way". &nbsp;And in <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1305&amp;Itemid=74" rel="nofollow">in this article,, I calculate that if 80% of the population of the U.S. lived in cities the size of NYC "then they would take up only 3/10ths of one percent of the area of the lower 48 states", and that if you put a green belt around each of these cities that was 6 times the area of each city and devoted those greenbelts to farming, you would still only be using 2.4% of the land in the U.S. &nbsp;So positive feedbacks are definitely possible between urban and rural areas -- it's the suburbs that get in the way.</a></a></p></strong></p>
			]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>Speaking of utopia...<p>...see my <a href="http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/9/6/122119/4154#comment1" rel="nofollow">comment in "Paving the way". &nbsp;And in <a href="http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=1305&amp;Itemid=74" rel="nofollow">in this article,, I calculate that if 80% of the population of the U.S. lived in cities the size of NYC "then they would take up only 3/10ths of one percent of the area of the lower 48 states", and that if you put a green belt around each of these cities that was 6 times the area of each city and devoted those greenbelts to farming, you would still only be using 2.4% of the land in the U.S. &nbsp;So positive feedbacks are definitely possible between urban and rural areas -- it's the suburbs that get in the way.</a></a></p></strong></p>
			]]></content:encoded>
		</item>
    
 </channel>
</rss>