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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Amid collapsing fisheries and factory-farmed salmon, how to choose sustainable seafood]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:20:56 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>yes<p>Good roundup! From my reading, I don't eat any shrimp unless its Gulf wild or US-farm raised ('maine shrimp' might also qualify, except that we know next to nothing about these critters and their population dynamics). &nbsp;There's no sustainable shrimp outside of these guides: farm raised in tropical countries is a detriment on many levels, but largely to mangrove forests and also in terms of human and labor rights and toxic pollution. <p>
Also, a note on MSC: the Marine Stewardship Council is now certifying some 'chilean sea bass' as sustainable, but this is bunk. No one should eat this fish for at least 2 dozen years as far as I understand it. Their stocks are super low and they reproduce very slowly. <p>
Erik

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: supporting grassroots groups working for conservation, justice, &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>yes<p>Good roundup! From my reading, I don't eat any shrimp unless its Gulf wild or US-farm raised ('maine shrimp' might also qualify, except that we know next to nothing about these critters and their population dynamics). &nbsp;There's no sustainable shrimp outside of these guides: farm raised in tropical countries is a detriment on many levels, but largely to mangrove forests and also in terms of human and labor rights and toxic pollution. <p>
Also, a note on MSC: the Marine Stewardship Council is now certifying some 'chilean sea bass' as sustainable, but this is bunk. No one should eat this fish for at least 2 dozen years as far as I understand it. Their stocks are super low and they reproduce very slowly. <p>
Erik

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: supporting grassroots groups working for conservation, justice, &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by twilight</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:15:40 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Bottom Feeder</strong></p><p><br>
I just want to second the recommendation of Grescoe's book. It brings all these issues alive in a very palpable, engaging way. (I'd call it the Omnivore's Dilemma of this issue). &nbsp;<br>
</br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Bottom Feeder</strong></p><p><br>
I just want to second the recommendation of Grescoe's book. It brings all these issues alive in a very palpable, engaging way. (I'd call it the Omnivore's Dilemma of this issue). &nbsp;<br>
</br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:48:51 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Sustainable Shrimp?</strong></p><p>When we visited the Monterey Bay Aquarium several years ago, it had an exhibit solely on why you should not eat <strong>any</strong> shrimp. &nbsp;The gist was that for every pound of shrimp caught, there was ten pounds of bycatch, which was killed and thrown back into the water. &nbsp;Since seeing this, my wife and I have boycotted shrimp. &nbsp;The problem with avoiding shrimp when eating out is that it dominates the fish &amp; seafood portions of menus at Asian restaurants, which makes it hard or impossible to eat fish in these places. &nbsp;Canis will be happy to know that this almost always causes us to eat vegan when eating Thai or Chinese.</p>
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				<p><strong>Sustainable Shrimp?</strong></p><p>When we visited the Monterey Bay Aquarium several years ago, it had an exhibit solely on why you should not eat <strong>any</strong> shrimp. &nbsp;The gist was that for every pound of shrimp caught, there was ten pounds of bycatch, which was killed and thrown back into the water. &nbsp;Since seeing this, my wife and I have boycotted shrimp. &nbsp;The problem with avoiding shrimp when eating out is that it dominates the fish &amp; seafood portions of menus at Asian restaurants, which makes it hard or impossible to eat fish in these places. &nbsp;Canis will be happy to know that this almost always causes us to eat vegan when eating Thai or Chinese.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by Ian Hanington</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:27:10 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Sustainable Seafood for Canada<p>You've recommended an excellent book by Canadian writer Taras Grescoe. Please allow me to offer a link for information on sustainable seafood for your Canadian readers:<p>
<a href="http://www.seachoice.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.seachoice.org<p>
Like the Monterey Bay Aquarium, SeaChoice also offers downloadable cards with best and worst seafood choices.</p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Sustainable Seafood for Canada<p>You've recommended an excellent book by Canadian writer Taras Grescoe. Please allow me to offer a link for information on sustainable seafood for your Canadian readers:<p>
<a href="http://www.seachoice.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.seachoice.org<p>
Like the Monterey Bay Aquarium, SeaChoice also offers downloadable cards with best and worst seafood choices.</p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:59:54 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>check out the first sustainable sushi restuaurant<p>tatakisushi.com<p>
have lots of vegan stuff for those who want to go the next step 

<p>We need to focus on the root causes of problems. <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>check out the first sustainable sushi restuaurant<p>tatakisushi.com<p>
have lots of vegan stuff for those who want to go the next step 

<p>We need to focus on the root causes of problems. <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Head Coach</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:17:10 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Go Seaweed!<p>Something undermentioned but is the vegan or vegetarian harvests from the sea. &nbsp;I just went on a Pacific Northwest seaweed harvesting weekend sponsored by a teacher from Bastyr University on Lopez Island in the San Juan islands of western Washington. We have made bull kelp pickles and spears (both dill and sweet) and dried the bull kelp fronds along with much nouri and bladderwrack sea weed. The vitamins and minerals are awesome from these plants but getting "good" iodine, not radioactive iodine is a huge plus for all omnivores. &nbsp;Harvest responsibly (cut the bull kelp stype above its grounding rock and it will re-grow quickly) and use everything (scraps go on our compost heap to nourish the garden).

<p>My best,

Mark Walker
Head Coach
Marketing Whisperers, Ltd.
<a href="http://www.marketingwhisperers.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.marketingwhisperers.com
(425) 327-5548</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Go Seaweed!<p>Something undermentioned but is the vegan or vegetarian harvests from the sea. &nbsp;I just went on a Pacific Northwest seaweed harvesting weekend sponsored by a teacher from Bastyr University on Lopez Island in the San Juan islands of western Washington. We have made bull kelp pickles and spears (both dill and sweet) and dried the bull kelp fronds along with much nouri and bladderwrack sea weed. The vitamins and minerals are awesome from these plants but getting "good" iodine, not radioactive iodine is a huge plus for all omnivores. &nbsp;Harvest responsibly (cut the bull kelp stype above its grounding rock and it will re-grow quickly) and use everything (scraps go on our compost heap to nourish the garden).

<p>My best,

Mark Walker
Head Coach
Marketing Whisperers, Ltd.
<a href="http://www.marketingwhisperers.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.marketingwhisperers.com
(425) 327-5548</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 04:35:53 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>We do that out here in Monterey....<p>my friend made pickled kelp with garlic that was incredible- it's an amazing renewable resource since in the summer kelp grows almost a foot a day and surfers love the harvesting since the kelp gets in the way. 

<p>We need to focus on the root causes of problems. <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>We do that out here in Monterey....<p>my friend made pickled kelp with garlic that was incredible- it's an amazing renewable resource since in the summer kelp grows almost a foot a day and surfers love the harvesting since the kelp gets in the way. 

<p>We need to focus on the root causes of problems. <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Alfredo</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 05:02:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>imported shrimp a big ecological problem<p>I want to mention something relevanr to the comments on the blog site concerning shrimp. Mangrove Action Project has recently launched &nbsp;the "Shrimp Less, Think More" Consumer Awareness and Markets Campaign. This campaign aims to raise public awareness about the serious problems associated with the shrimp aquaculture industry, while asking consumers to greatly reduce their consumption demand for cheap farmed shrimp, especially when the true costs of that shrimp far exceeds the supermarket or restaurant costs we are paying in the US and abroad.<p>
MAP's blog site is: <a href="http://www.shrimpless.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.shrimpless.wordpress.com<br>
Also, MAP's website contains a wealth of information about mangroves and shrimp farm issues.Pleae visit at <a href="http://www.mangroveactionproject.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.mangroveactionproject.org<p>
Alfredo Quarto,<br>
Mangrove Action PToject<br>
</br></br></p></a></br></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>imported shrimp a big ecological problem<p>I want to mention something relevanr to the comments on the blog site concerning shrimp. Mangrove Action Project has recently launched &nbsp;the "Shrimp Less, Think More" Consumer Awareness and Markets Campaign. This campaign aims to raise public awareness about the serious problems associated with the shrimp aquaculture industry, while asking consumers to greatly reduce their consumption demand for cheap farmed shrimp, especially when the true costs of that shrimp far exceeds the supermarket or restaurant costs we are paying in the US and abroad.<p>
MAP's blog site is: <a href="http://www.shrimpless.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.shrimpless.wordpress.com<br>
Also, MAP's website contains a wealth of information about mangroves and shrimp farm issues.Pleae visit at <a href="http://www.mangroveactionproject.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.mangroveactionproject.org<p>
Alfredo Quarto,<br>
Mangrove Action PToject<br>
</br></br></p></a></br></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by kyotousa</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 05:47:05 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Just say no</strong></p><p>The recommendations for eating healthy and sustainable fish require a consumer to be pretty savvy about this issue. I've watched health department colleagues try to pass those messages on to the public for years with little effect. I have a simple solution - let's give the fish and the planet a break and end our consumption of fish and other aquatic animals. Get your fatty acids from vegetables. We'll reduce our exposure to mercury (especially children and women of child-bearing age), give the wild species a chance to rebound, and do away with farmed animals who are treated cruelly and end fish farming practices that affect the health of the oceans and other wild species. Problems solved!

<p>Tom Kelly</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Just say no</strong></p><p>The recommendations for eating healthy and sustainable fish require a consumer to be pretty savvy about this issue. I've watched health department colleagues try to pass those messages on to the public for years with little effect. I have a simple solution - let's give the fish and the planet a break and end our consumption of fish and other aquatic animals. Get your fatty acids from vegetables. We'll reduce our exposure to mercury (especially children and women of child-bearing age), give the wild species a chance to rebound, and do away with farmed animals who are treated cruelly and end fish farming practices that affect the health of the oceans and other wild species. Problems solved!

<p>Tom Kelly</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 05:55:02 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Tom...<p>that's what I've been saying for years. Nothing is better for than environment than becoming a vegan and eating low on the food chain.

<p>We need to focus on the root causes of problems. <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Tom...<p>that's what I've been saying for years. Nothing is better for than environment than becoming a vegan and eating low on the food chain.

<p>We need to focus on the root causes of problems. <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Mfox</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:07:38 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>But Jason....</strong></p><p>...cheese just tastes way too good, and margarine/veg. oil will never make baked goods taste nearly as good as butter.</p>
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				<p><strong>But Jason....</strong></p><p>...cheese just tastes way too good, and margarine/veg. oil will never make baked goods taste nearly as good as butter.</p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:01:01 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Mfox....<p>you need to learn how to really cook- meat and dairy are for those who don't understand the full palate of flavors and need to overwhelm dishes with fat and salt and grease. Come over to the vegan side and you will discover a world of flavors you never knew possible....it will blow you away. I promise.

<p>We need to focus on the root causes of problems. <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Mfox....<p>you need to learn how to really cook- meat and dairy are for those who don't understand the full palate of flavors and need to overwhelm dishes with fat and salt and grease. Come over to the vegan side and you will discover a world of flavors you never knew possible....it will blow you away. I promise.

<p>We need to focus on the root causes of problems. <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:37:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>&quot;fretting&quot;</strong></p><p>As much as I like my ever-so-rare filet-o-fish, or Burger King's fish sandwich, when I am on the road, nevertheless, we should remember:</p><p>


&nbsp;there is NO humane death for fish, so far as they are caught and dragged to death nowadays, most of them allowed simply to panic and suffocate;</p><p>
&nbsp;there is no responsible application of "sustainable" to any fishery; some fisheries are much better than others, right now; but nobody knows enough to tell you anything reliable about the way things will look in five years.</p><p>


So: Let us all knock the seafood habit as quickly as possible.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;fretting&quot;</strong></p><p>As much as I like my ever-so-rare filet-o-fish, or Burger King's fish sandwich, when I am on the road, nevertheless, we should remember:</p><p>


&nbsp;there is NO humane death for fish, so far as they are caught and dragged to death nowadays, most of them allowed simply to panic and suffocate;</p><p>
&nbsp;there is no responsible application of "sustainable" to any fishery; some fisheries are much better than others, right now; but nobody knows enough to tell you anything reliable about the way things will look in five years.</p><p>


So: Let us all knock the seafood habit as quickly as possible.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by Wolverine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 06:44:27 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/14</guid>
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				<p><strong>Don't Eat Bugger King!</strong></p><p>Canis,</p><p>
I'm shocked! &nbsp;I was a long distance trucker for five years when I was a vegetarian. &nbsp;It was rough, but if you make some effort, you can eat without patronizing evil companies like Bugger King, which is still buying imported beef that was grazed on former tropical rainforest land cut down for the grazing. &nbsp;I realize you're not buying beef, but any money you spend there supports whatever Bugger King does.</p><p>
When you travel, keep these ideas in mind:</p><p>


The best places to eat are big cities, with a few very rare exceptions. &nbsp;They have the most choices, and not only have strictly veggie restaurants, but also Asian food and pizza that you can eat without eating domesticated meat or unsustainable fish/seafood. &nbsp;In small towns, you're far more likely to be forced into eating things you don't want from big corporate chains.</p><p>
There were, and I assume still are, books that tell you where the veggie restaurants around the country are and give brief descriptions of them. &nbsp;Buy a new one, because the info changes quickly. &nbsp;Even with a new one, you'll find that some of the restaurants have been closed, so call ahead if you're counting on one.</p><p>
You can always order eggs if you can't get veggie protein, which is what I used to do. &nbsp;Don't know whether eggs are veggie for you, they were for me.</p><p>
Carry some protein with you, like nuts and legumes (peanuts, cashews, etc.). &nbsp;That way, if you can't get veggie protein from a restaurant because you're stuck in, say, the middle of nowhere in Wyoming and there's no city within 200 miles at which to eat, you don't have to eat meat.</p><p>
Don't eat at McDeathalds or Bugger King under any circumstances. &nbsp;These evil corporate giants create much ecological destruction and use virtual slave labor.

</p>
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				<p><strong>Don't Eat Bugger King!</strong></p><p>Canis,</p><p>
I'm shocked! &nbsp;I was a long distance trucker for five years when I was a vegetarian. &nbsp;It was rough, but if you make some effort, you can eat without patronizing evil companies like Bugger King, which is still buying imported beef that was grazed on former tropical rainforest land cut down for the grazing. &nbsp;I realize you're not buying beef, but any money you spend there supports whatever Bugger King does.</p><p>
When you travel, keep these ideas in mind:</p><p>


The best places to eat are big cities, with a few very rare exceptions. &nbsp;They have the most choices, and not only have strictly veggie restaurants, but also Asian food and pizza that you can eat without eating domesticated meat or unsustainable fish/seafood. &nbsp;In small towns, you're far more likely to be forced into eating things you don't want from big corporate chains.</p><p>
There were, and I assume still are, books that tell you where the veggie restaurants around the country are and give brief descriptions of them. &nbsp;Buy a new one, because the info changes quickly. &nbsp;Even with a new one, you'll find that some of the restaurants have been closed, so call ahead if you're counting on one.</p><p>
You can always order eggs if you can't get veggie protein, which is what I used to do. &nbsp;Don't know whether eggs are veggie for you, they were for me.</p><p>
Carry some protein with you, like nuts and legumes (peanuts, cashews, etc.). &nbsp;That way, if you can't get veggie protein from a restaurant because you're stuck in, say, the middle of nowhere in Wyoming and there's no city within 200 miles at which to eat, you don't have to eat meat.</p><p>
Don't eat at McDeathalds or Bugger King under any circumstances. &nbsp;These evil corporate giants create much ecological destruction and use virtual slave labor.

</p>
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            <title>Comment #15 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:42:21 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/15</guid>
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				<p><strong>Hunger, Thirst, Guilt ...</strong></p><p>Hey Wolverine baby,<br>
You are absolutely right. &nbsp;But in my case, we are talking about a once-a-year thing, max.</p><p>
The real issue is not eating, so much as peeing. &nbsp;And making sure Little Dog has enough water.</p><p>
As an ex-trucker, you have terrific experience, which we lack. &nbsp;Meanwhile, it is indeed true that whenever we pull into a McDonald's or Burger King lot, I fantasize a colossal Max von Sydow, in a black floor-length cowl, holding a scythe.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Hunger, Thirst, Guilt ...</strong></p><p>Hey Wolverine baby,<br>
You are absolutely right. &nbsp;But in my case, we are talking about a once-a-year thing, max.</p><p>
The real issue is not eating, so much as peeing. &nbsp;And making sure Little Dog has enough water.</p><p>
As an ex-trucker, you have terrific experience, which we lack. &nbsp;Meanwhile, it is indeed true that whenever we pull into a McDonald's or Burger King lot, I fantasize a colossal Max von Sydow, in a black floor-length cowl, holding a scythe.

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #16 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 10:20:52 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>my usual plaintiff plea:</strong></p><p>"What about catfish or tilapia?" &nbsp;That's about 80% of my protein intake. &nbsp;Low on the food chain, can be sustainably farmed.</p>
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				<p><strong>my usual plaintiff plea:</strong></p><p>"What about catfish or tilapia?" &nbsp;That's about 80% of my protein intake. &nbsp;Low on the food chain, can be sustainably farmed.</p>
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            <title>Comment #17 by mckittre</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 04:16:33 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Don't say NO - We need the fishermen!<p>I live in Alaska, so for me, wild Alaskan salmon is clearly a much better choice than shipping tofu thousands of miles...<p>
However, it's really important for everyone to actually pay attention to those sustainability guides, rather than to avoid fish as a blanket rule. &nbsp;<p>
For instance, in the wild Alaskan salmon fishery:<br>
Wild salmon depend on both healthy oceans and healthy watersheds. &nbsp;Fishermen have a lot of clout to try and keep them that way - if and only if people recognize that their product is better and friendlier than farmed salmon and will pay the price for it. &nbsp;<br>
Alaska is also stuffed full of metals, coal, gas, and oil underneath some of these currently pristine watersheds. &nbsp;There is a huge push to explore these, and the more a mining company can make the point that the economic future of fishing is crap, the more they convince locals that open pit gold/copper mining is the way to go.<br>
One of the largest open pit mines in North America might go in at the headwaters of Bristol Bay (one of the world's largest salmon runs and pristine ecosystems). &nbsp;See <a href="http://www.aktrekking.com/Pebble" rel="nofollow">Pebble Mine. &nbsp;The fishermen are the only hope of stopping it. &nbsp;Bristol Bay had record salmon runs this year - the competition with farmed salmon is the main thing driving their prices and livelihoods down.<p>
This is just one example I happen to know well. &nbsp;I'm sure if you look into other sustainable fisheries, you'll find similar stories. &nbsp;<p>
We don't need to just avoid bad industries, we need to support the good ones. &nbsp;More than just fish populations are at stake.<p>
-Erin<br>
<a href="http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org</a></br></p></p></p></a></br></br></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Don't say NO - We need the fishermen!<p>I live in Alaska, so for me, wild Alaskan salmon is clearly a much better choice than shipping tofu thousands of miles...<p>
However, it's really important for everyone to actually pay attention to those sustainability guides, rather than to avoid fish as a blanket rule. &nbsp;<p>
For instance, in the wild Alaskan salmon fishery:<br>
Wild salmon depend on both healthy oceans and healthy watersheds. &nbsp;Fishermen have a lot of clout to try and keep them that way - if and only if people recognize that their product is better and friendlier than farmed salmon and will pay the price for it. &nbsp;<br>
Alaska is also stuffed full of metals, coal, gas, and oil underneath some of these currently pristine watersheds. &nbsp;There is a huge push to explore these, and the more a mining company can make the point that the economic future of fishing is crap, the more they convince locals that open pit gold/copper mining is the way to go.<br>
One of the largest open pit mines in North America might go in at the headwaters of Bristol Bay (one of the world's largest salmon runs and pristine ecosystems). &nbsp;See <a href="http://www.aktrekking.com/Pebble" rel="nofollow">Pebble Mine. &nbsp;The fishermen are the only hope of stopping it. &nbsp;Bristol Bay had record salmon runs this year - the competition with farmed salmon is the main thing driving their prices and livelihoods down.<p>
This is just one example I happen to know well. &nbsp;I'm sure if you look into other sustainable fisheries, you'll find similar stories. &nbsp;<p>
We don't need to just avoid bad industries, we need to support the good ones. &nbsp;More than just fish populations are at stake.<p>
-Erin<br>
<a href="http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org</a></br></p></p></p></a></br></br></br></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #18 by mckittre</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 04:20:14 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>wrong link to Pebble Mine<p>Sorry. &nbsp;If anyone's interested, here's the link: &nbsp;<a href="http://www.aktrekking.com/pebble/" rel="nofollow">Pebble Mine</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>wrong link to Pebble Mine<p>Sorry. &nbsp;If anyone's interested, here's the link: &nbsp;<a href="http://www.aktrekking.com/pebble/" rel="nofollow">Pebble Mine</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #19 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 04:32:36 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Good point Erin!</strong></p><p>Are fishing quotas in Alaska set to maintain fish population? &nbsp; I have the impression that there is a hold rush mentality begind every natural resource based industry in Alaska. &nbsp;</p><p>
How strong in terms of munbers and political influence are environmentalists in Alaska? &nbsp;</p><p>
Lately I have the impression that oil revenue payouts to citizens, industry employment, very high Alaskan living expenses, and the winnowing out of the job base and government of those opposed to unbridled industry exploitation has rendered environmentalism in Alaska dead.</p><p>
In short, virtually all working people who care about mother earth have been forced to move elsewhere. &nbsp;Is this the case?

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Good point Erin!</strong></p><p>Are fishing quotas in Alaska set to maintain fish population? &nbsp; I have the impression that there is a hold rush mentality begind every natural resource based industry in Alaska. &nbsp;</p><p>
How strong in terms of munbers and political influence are environmentalists in Alaska? &nbsp;</p><p>
Lately I have the impression that oil revenue payouts to citizens, industry employment, very high Alaskan living expenses, and the winnowing out of the job base and government of those opposed to unbridled industry exploitation has rendered environmentalism in Alaska dead.</p><p>
In short, virtually all working people who care about mother earth have been forced to move elsewhere. &nbsp;Is this the case?

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #20 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:13:04 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>tilapia<p>Jon, indeed, those are good choices usually, but watch the source, esp the tilapia. Much of the tilapia fillets coming from overseas (largely China, and South America) are treated in a preservative bath. And are grown with antibiotic laced food. <p>
US based tilapia farms do not use preservatives, according to their industry lobby group.<p>
Erik

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: supporting grassroots groups working for conservation, justice, &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>tilapia<p>Jon, indeed, those are good choices usually, but watch the source, esp the tilapia. Much of the tilapia fillets coming from overseas (largely China, and South America) are treated in a preservative bath. And are grown with antibiotic laced food. <p>
US based tilapia farms do not use preservatives, according to their industry lobby group.<p>
Erik

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: supporting grassroots groups working for conservation, justice, &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #21 by mckittre</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:18:50 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Alaskan Environmentalists<p>Using the views of the big industries to represent all Alaskans is about as accurate as using the views of our president to represent all Americans. &nbsp;:)<p>
Overall, the Alaska Dept of Fish and Game does quite a good job managing the salmon runs sustainably. &nbsp;Alaska still has, on average, about 100% of its historic runs of salmon, compared to 36% in BC, and 2% in Washington. &nbsp;This is probably because when we shifted to more sensible management strategies, there were still a lot of fish here and not too many people, so it was a more tractable problem. &nbsp;<p>
Your question about environmentalism is a little more complicated. &nbsp;Few Alaskans would be caught dead calling themselves environmentalists. &nbsp;However if you talk to them about specific issues (I just &nbsp;<a href="http://www.groundtruthtrekking.org" rel="nofollow">walked about 3000 miles through the state and talked to a lot of folks) - nearly all Alaskans have strong environmental values.<p>
More so than other places I've lived, Alaskans have a strong connection to the natural world around them. &nbsp;The proportion of outdoorspeople, hunters, fishermen, gatherers, gardeners... is very high. &nbsp;And they really do care about maintaining these resources. &nbsp;Salmon, particularly, are a bit of a sacred cow. &nbsp;Given that people have more of a personal connection to the issues, their views tend to be a bit more complicated (e.g. someone who &nbsp;is worried about oil drilling, but all for predator control, someone who is trying to start a local organic farm in their village but thinks more oil drilling is a great idea, someone who is pushing for local wind power, but supports mining development, etc...)<p>
As far as living expenses go, Alaska actually has a lot of people (myself among them) who manage to live very cheaply here. &nbsp;You can build your own small house, salvage materials, heat with wood, grow/fish/hunt/gather a good chunk of food... &nbsp;<p>
And the intra-Alaska environmental debate is quite lively. &nbsp;Currently, there's a huge battle over a Clean Water Initiative targeted at the mining industry on the upcoming primary ballot. &nbsp;The Pebble Mine I mentioned in the previous post is on state land, and it's up in the air what will happen, despite the huge amount of money the mining industry's throwing at it.<p>
I would say that Alaskans, on average, resent people from 'Outside' telling them what to do with their land, more than being anti-environmental per se. &nbsp;Alaskans also are more convinced by global warming than the population of other 'red state', given that its effects are more obvious here.<p>
I see the future of environmental issues here as pretty hopeful, actually. &nbsp;And don't the rest of you give up on us! &nbsp;Alaska is an important battle ground for all sorts of things (we might have 10% of the world's coal, for one), and I think things can be solved better by working with Alaskans, rather than just at the federal level.<p>
Long answer. &nbsp;Hope it helps. &nbsp;<p>
-Erin<br>
<a href="http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Alaskan Environmentalists<p>Using the views of the big industries to represent all Alaskans is about as accurate as using the views of our president to represent all Americans. &nbsp;:)<p>
Overall, the Alaska Dept of Fish and Game does quite a good job managing the salmon runs sustainably. &nbsp;Alaska still has, on average, about 100% of its historic runs of salmon, compared to 36% in BC, and 2% in Washington. &nbsp;This is probably because when we shifted to more sensible management strategies, there were still a lot of fish here and not too many people, so it was a more tractable problem. &nbsp;<p>
Your question about environmentalism is a little more complicated. &nbsp;Few Alaskans would be caught dead calling themselves environmentalists. &nbsp;However if you talk to them about specific issues (I just &nbsp;<a href="http://www.groundtruthtrekking.org" rel="nofollow">walked about 3000 miles through the state and talked to a lot of folks) - nearly all Alaskans have strong environmental values.<p>
More so than other places I've lived, Alaskans have a strong connection to the natural world around them. &nbsp;The proportion of outdoorspeople, hunters, fishermen, gatherers, gardeners... is very high. &nbsp;And they really do care about maintaining these resources. &nbsp;Salmon, particularly, are a bit of a sacred cow. &nbsp;Given that people have more of a personal connection to the issues, their views tend to be a bit more complicated (e.g. someone who &nbsp;is worried about oil drilling, but all for predator control, someone who is trying to start a local organic farm in their village but thinks more oil drilling is a great idea, someone who is pushing for local wind power, but supports mining development, etc...)<p>
As far as living expenses go, Alaska actually has a lot of people (myself among them) who manage to live very cheaply here. &nbsp;You can build your own small house, salvage materials, heat with wood, grow/fish/hunt/gather a good chunk of food... &nbsp;<p>
And the intra-Alaska environmental debate is quite lively. &nbsp;Currently, there's a huge battle over a Clean Water Initiative targeted at the mining industry on the upcoming primary ballot. &nbsp;The Pebble Mine I mentioned in the previous post is on state land, and it's up in the air what will happen, despite the huge amount of money the mining industry's throwing at it.<p>
I would say that Alaskans, on average, resent people from 'Outside' telling them what to do with their land, more than being anti-environmental per se. &nbsp;Alaskans also are more convinced by global warming than the population of other 'red state', given that its effects are more obvious here.<p>
I see the future of environmental issues here as pretty hopeful, actually. &nbsp;And don't the rest of you give up on us! &nbsp;Alaska is an important battle ground for all sorts of things (we might have 10% of the world's coal, for one), and I think things can be solved better by working with Alaskans, rather than just at the federal level.<p>
Long answer. &nbsp;Hope it helps. &nbsp;<p>
-Erin<br>
<a href="http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #22 by Jon Rynn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 05:34:33 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Thanks for the info and good works, Erin</strong></p><p></p>
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				<p><strong>Thanks for the info and good works, Erin</strong></p><p></p>
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            <title>Comment #23 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:00:28 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>This is what worries me</strong></p><p>"Few Alaskans would be caught dead calling themselves environmentalists."</p><p>
That is the impression I got too. &nbsp;They tend to despise environmentalism. &nbsp;Anyone that sees a spiritual value in nature is not only seen as a kook, but someone to be aggresively (violently?) opposed. &nbsp;</p><p>
One can only express that sort of feeling in private, especially not in the workplace or in public where it will get back to supervosots or employers.</p><p>
"Alaskans, on average, resent people from 'Outside' telling them what to do with their land,"</p><p>
That resentment is frequently expressed in terms of "he got what he deserved" about people like the "Grizzly Man" or the "Into The Wild" guy who died in that bus.</p><p>
I am familiar with this attitude around here with "No Wolves" bumperstickers on a few &nbsp;trucks. &nbsp;The old attitudes are falling away here though. &nbsp;Will that ever happen in Alaska?</p><p>
The "from outside" and "their land" attitude is problematic too. &nbsp;Are federal or state lands "theirs" to exploit in whatever fashion their employer wants too? &nbsp;</p><p>
My impression is that game laws are largely &nbsp;ignored in Alaska. &nbsp;Wealthy tourists are flown in to bag trophies regardless of any game laws as a routine activity.</p><p>
Good comments Erin! &nbsp;here's hoping your poineering environmental effots take hold someday. &nbsp;Thanks. &nbsp;</p><p>
Now just hope no one from your town reads Gristmill, yikes!</p><p>
ps. &nbsp;Congrats on your lifestyle. &nbsp;That would go a long way towards saving the planet if it becomes more widespread.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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				<p><strong>This is what worries me</strong></p><p>"Few Alaskans would be caught dead calling themselves environmentalists."</p><p>
That is the impression I got too. &nbsp;They tend to despise environmentalism. &nbsp;Anyone that sees a spiritual value in nature is not only seen as a kook, but someone to be aggresively (violently?) opposed. &nbsp;</p><p>
One can only express that sort of feeling in private, especially not in the workplace or in public where it will get back to supervosots or employers.</p><p>
"Alaskans, on average, resent people from 'Outside' telling them what to do with their land,"</p><p>
That resentment is frequently expressed in terms of "he got what he deserved" about people like the "Grizzly Man" or the "Into The Wild" guy who died in that bus.</p><p>
I am familiar with this attitude around here with "No Wolves" bumperstickers on a few &nbsp;trucks. &nbsp;The old attitudes are falling away here though. &nbsp;Will that ever happen in Alaska?</p><p>
The "from outside" and "their land" attitude is problematic too. &nbsp;Are federal or state lands "theirs" to exploit in whatever fashion their employer wants too? &nbsp;</p><p>
My impression is that game laws are largely &nbsp;ignored in Alaska. &nbsp;Wealthy tourists are flown in to bag trophies regardless of any game laws as a routine activity.</p><p>
Good comments Erin! &nbsp;here's hoping your poineering environmental effots take hold someday. &nbsp;Thanks. &nbsp;</p><p>
Now just hope no one from your town reads Gristmill, yikes!</p><p>
ps. &nbsp;Congrats on your lifestyle. &nbsp;That would go a long way towards saving the planet if it becomes more widespread.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #24 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:06:55 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Forgot</strong></p><p>Great site Erin! &nbsp;Have a good trip.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Forgot</strong></p><p>Great site Erin! &nbsp;Have a good trip.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #25 by mckittre</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:45:55 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Worries about Alaskans<p>Certainly attitudes are changing here too. &nbsp;Fuel prices and transportation costs hit here harder than most places, which spurs more talk of renewable energy. &nbsp;And Alaska has always had a large contingent of imported ex-hippies and "back to the land" folks. &nbsp;The word "environmentalist" provokes a more negative reaction than the actual positions do. &nbsp;And we have our unabashed greenies as well. &nbsp;Part of the problem is the stereotype of environmentalists as anti-fishing, anti-hunting, and anti-everything.<p>
Change is also in the air for Alaskan politics. &nbsp;People here understand that all our local politicians have been horribly corrupt for a long time, and we're working on getting rid of them. &nbsp;Ted Stevens next?<p>
"Our land" &nbsp;Alaska has always resented being 3/4 owned by the federal government. &nbsp;Which is a problem. &nbsp;In many ways, I think it's a great help in saving us from our 'frontier mentality'. &nbsp;On the other hand, when you're talking to someone in a village entirely surrounded by federal land, owned by people who've never been there and don't understand local issues, it's easy to understand how they might chafe at that. &nbsp;<p>
Game laws: &nbsp;In general, wealthy tourists are the ones who do stick to the rules. &nbsp;They pay a lot of money to bag their trophies, and Fish and Game wants to make sure we get it. &nbsp;Game laws are routinely flouted by subsistence hunters in rural villages, who think that hunting seasons are a bureaucratic stupidity, or kids in those same villages who think killing bears for no good reason is fun. &nbsp;Enforcement is hard in such a huge geographic area. &nbsp;Another issue is that Fish and Game has a mandate to make sure there are enough moose and caribou for all the folks who want to eat them - which can lead to controversial 'predator management' programs (shooting wolves), especially in the more populous areas of the state.<p>
Alaskans do place spiritual value on the wilderness. &nbsp;However, they have a 'frontier mentality' - a belief that we live within a limitless and infinite expanse of wild nature. &nbsp;A belief that has been proven wrong in every other part of the world - but people aren't always great at learning from the mistakes of others. &nbsp;We don't need to convince them of the value of the land - just that the land here is also vulnerable. &nbsp;<p>
I just finished my big trek. &nbsp;Now I'm working on compiling all the information to go on the website and working on a book, while trying to live with as little a footprint as I can manage up here.<p>
-Erin<br>
<a href="http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Worries about Alaskans<p>Certainly attitudes are changing here too. &nbsp;Fuel prices and transportation costs hit here harder than most places, which spurs more talk of renewable energy. &nbsp;And Alaska has always had a large contingent of imported ex-hippies and "back to the land" folks. &nbsp;The word "environmentalist" provokes a more negative reaction than the actual positions do. &nbsp;And we have our unabashed greenies as well. &nbsp;Part of the problem is the stereotype of environmentalists as anti-fishing, anti-hunting, and anti-everything.<p>
Change is also in the air for Alaskan politics. &nbsp;People here understand that all our local politicians have been horribly corrupt for a long time, and we're working on getting rid of them. &nbsp;Ted Stevens next?<p>
"Our land" &nbsp;Alaska has always resented being 3/4 owned by the federal government. &nbsp;Which is a problem. &nbsp;In many ways, I think it's a great help in saving us from our 'frontier mentality'. &nbsp;On the other hand, when you're talking to someone in a village entirely surrounded by federal land, owned by people who've never been there and don't understand local issues, it's easy to understand how they might chafe at that. &nbsp;<p>
Game laws: &nbsp;In general, wealthy tourists are the ones who do stick to the rules. &nbsp;They pay a lot of money to bag their trophies, and Fish and Game wants to make sure we get it. &nbsp;Game laws are routinely flouted by subsistence hunters in rural villages, who think that hunting seasons are a bureaucratic stupidity, or kids in those same villages who think killing bears for no good reason is fun. &nbsp;Enforcement is hard in such a huge geographic area. &nbsp;Another issue is that Fish and Game has a mandate to make sure there are enough moose and caribou for all the folks who want to eat them - which can lead to controversial 'predator management' programs (shooting wolves), especially in the more populous areas of the state.<p>
Alaskans do place spiritual value on the wilderness. &nbsp;However, they have a 'frontier mentality' - a belief that we live within a limitless and infinite expanse of wild nature. &nbsp;A belief that has been proven wrong in every other part of the world - but people aren't always great at learning from the mistakes of others. &nbsp;We don't need to convince them of the value of the land - just that the land here is also vulnerable. &nbsp;<p>
I just finished my big trek. &nbsp;Now I'm working on compiling all the information to go on the website and working on a book, while trying to live with as little a footprint as I can manage up here.<p>
-Erin<br>
<a href="http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org</a></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #26 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:54:13 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Good<p>News Erin, maybe it is more hopeful. &nbsp;That Alaskan wind power utility scale battery system was record breaking.<p>
<a href="http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/18/1453982.html" rel="nofollow">http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/18 ...<p>
You have a great blog, everyone should check it out.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Good<p>News Erin, maybe it is more hopeful. &nbsp;That Alaskan wind power utility scale battery system was record breaking.<p>
<a href="http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/18/1453982.html" rel="nofollow">http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/18 ...<p>
You have a great blog, everyone should check it out.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #27 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:00:13 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>There's the huge battery<p><a href="http://www.gvea.com/news/?id=121" rel="nofollow">http://www.gvea.com/news/?id=121<p>
Bad link on my site.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>There's the huge battery<p><a href="http://www.gvea.com/news/?id=121" rel="nofollow">http://www.gvea.com/news/?id=121<p>
Bad link on my site.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #28 by caniscandida</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:25:22 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>&quot;Sustainability&quot; again; Alaskan fraud</strong></p><p>As though the opinion of many of us in the Lower 48 mattered, it should be remembered that Euro-American Alaskans are masters of denialism. &nbsp;They could not survive but for subsidies from us suckers down here; and yet they claim to be valiant, heroic frontiersmen. &nbsp;The story of settlement by exploitative Europeans and Euro-Americans in the various regions contained within the state of Alaska is nothing short of disgraceful. &nbsp;And since petroleum became an issue, that justification of the extraction industries has only got worse.</p><p>
As for the "sustainable" salmon fishery off southern Alaska: Sure, that fishery is better managed than many others. &nbsp;But given the uncertainty and agnosticism of marine ecosystems, we are irresponsibly optimistic to say that Alaskan wild salmon is "sustainable."</p><p>
Nobody knows, really. &nbsp;And those who know the most, cannot predict beyond five or ten years.</p><p>
And that is typical of what led to the global biodiversity crisis in the first place: "We can get as rich as we possibly can, exploiting this resource [i.e. living sentient creatures, their painful deaths going without comment], for maybe five, ten years; and everybody will believe we are acting responsibly."

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;Sustainability&quot; again; Alaskan fraud</strong></p><p>As though the opinion of many of us in the Lower 48 mattered, it should be remembered that Euro-American Alaskans are masters of denialism. &nbsp;They could not survive but for subsidies from us suckers down here; and yet they claim to be valiant, heroic frontiersmen. &nbsp;The story of settlement by exploitative Europeans and Euro-Americans in the various regions contained within the state of Alaska is nothing short of disgraceful. &nbsp;And since petroleum became an issue, that justification of the extraction industries has only got worse.</p><p>
As for the "sustainable" salmon fishery off southern Alaska: Sure, that fishery is better managed than many others. &nbsp;But given the uncertainty and agnosticism of marine ecosystems, we are irresponsibly optimistic to say that Alaskan wild salmon is "sustainable."</p><p>
Nobody knows, really. &nbsp;And those who know the most, cannot predict beyond five or ten years.</p><p>
And that is typical of what led to the global biodiversity crisis in the first place: "We can get as rich as we possibly can, exploiting this resource [i.e. living sentient creatures, their painful deaths going without comment], for maybe five, ten years; and everybody will believe we are acting responsibly."

<p>Chickens deserve our true friendship!  So do fish!  So do other sentient beings!  Let us learn to be kind.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #29 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 08:40:46 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>I share your skepticism</strong></p><p>Canis. &nbsp;The only fish I eat now are ones I catch or get from local fishing family businesses on Lake superior, smoked trout and white fish.</p><p>
The Great Lakes fishery is at dire risk from invasive species. &nbsp;And even in Lake Superior, industrial pollution.</p><p>
Over fishing maybe under control for now. &nbsp;These DNR people watching over Lake Superior are fierce in their defense of the resource, facing down commercial and political power with dedication.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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				<p><strong>I share your skepticism</strong></p><p>Canis. &nbsp;The only fish I eat now are ones I catch or get from local fishing family businesses on Lake superior, smoked trout and white fish.</p><p>
The Great Lakes fishery is at dire risk from invasive species. &nbsp;And even in Lake Superior, industrial pollution.</p><p>
Over fishing maybe under control for now. &nbsp;These DNR people watching over Lake Superior are fierce in their defense of the resource, facing down commercial and political power with dedication.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #30 by mckittre</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 07:44:39 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Alaskan fraud?<p>Good job helping me convince Alaskans that environmentalists are people worth listening to. &nbsp;:)<p>
Folks here are, on average, no more or less heroic, no more or less smart, and no more or less responsible than people anywhere else.<p>
Settlement by exploitative Europeans is a sad part of the history of Alaska as well as the history of the rest of the US, much of North and South America, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and many other parts of the world. &nbsp;It's unfortunate, but I don't think it's particularly relevant to this discussion.<p>
Neither is Alaska's pork-barrel politics. &nbsp;We don't need the subsidies, we just have greedy and powerful politicians who grab whatever they can for Alaska. &nbsp;I don't support it either, but it's irrelevant to the question of eating salmon.<p>
As for sustainability? <p>
&nbsp;Do we know for sure that eating wild Alaskan salmon is completely sustainable as currently managed? <br>
&nbsp;No. &nbsp;<br>
Do we know that anything we might eat, animal or vegetable, is completely sustainable as currently managed? &nbsp;<br>
No. &nbsp;<br>
And if we wish to put a value on wild ecosystems, a lot of farming is already a notch or two down by virtue of having destroyed whatever ecosystem was there before the farmland. &nbsp;<p>
People have always needed to eat something. &nbsp;Salmon have been harvested here for probably 10,000 years, and I don't see it as impossible to regulate the fishery such that they can be harvested for 10,000 more. &nbsp;But you seem to think it's not worth even trying?<p>
Perhaps it is irresponsibly optimistic for us to eat at all. &nbsp;<p>
-Erin<br>
<a href="http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org</a></br></p></p></p></br></br></br></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Alaskan fraud?<p>Good job helping me convince Alaskans that environmentalists are people worth listening to. &nbsp;:)<p>
Folks here are, on average, no more or less heroic, no more or less smart, and no more or less responsible than people anywhere else.<p>
Settlement by exploitative Europeans is a sad part of the history of Alaska as well as the history of the rest of the US, much of North and South America, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and many other parts of the world. &nbsp;It's unfortunate, but I don't think it's particularly relevant to this discussion.<p>
Neither is Alaska's pork-barrel politics. &nbsp;We don't need the subsidies, we just have greedy and powerful politicians who grab whatever they can for Alaska. &nbsp;I don't support it either, but it's irrelevant to the question of eating salmon.<p>
As for sustainability? <p>
&nbsp;Do we know for sure that eating wild Alaskan salmon is completely sustainable as currently managed? <br>
&nbsp;No. &nbsp;<br>
Do we know that anything we might eat, animal or vegetable, is completely sustainable as currently managed? &nbsp;<br>
No. &nbsp;<br>
And if we wish to put a value on wild ecosystems, a lot of farming is already a notch or two down by virtue of having destroyed whatever ecosystem was there before the farmland. &nbsp;<p>
People have always needed to eat something. &nbsp;Salmon have been harvested here for probably 10,000 years, and I don't see it as impossible to regulate the fishery such that they can be harvested for 10,000 more. &nbsp;But you seem to think it's not worth even trying?<p>
Perhaps it is irresponsibly optimistic for us to eat at all. &nbsp;<p>
-Erin<br>
<a href="http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.GroundTruthTrekking.org</a></br></p></p></p></br></br></br></br></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #31 by CyberBrook</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:16:54 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>most sustainable and most healthy<p><b><br>
The most sustainable and most healthy way---for you, the fish, and our environment---is no fish. Seaweed is clearly the best seafood in this regard.<p>
Check out<p>
<a href="http://www.fishinghurts.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.fishinghurts.com<p>
and<p>
<a href="http://www.brook.com/veg" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.brook.com/veg<br>


<p>Eco-Eating: Eating as if the Earth Matters at 
<a href="http://www.brook.com/veg" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.brook.com/veg</a></p></br></a></p></p></a></p></p></br></b></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>most sustainable and most healthy<p><b><br>
The most sustainable and most healthy way---for you, the fish, and our environment---is no fish. Seaweed is clearly the best seafood in this regard.<p>
Check out<p>
<a href="http://www.fishinghurts.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.fishinghurts.com<p>
and<p>
<a href="http://www.brook.com/veg" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.brook.com/veg<br>


<p>Eco-Eating: Eating as if the Earth Matters at 
<a href="http://www.brook.com/veg" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://www.brook.com/veg</a></p></br></a></p></p></a></p></p></br></b></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #32 by Cinnamonia</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:38:45 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>100% irrelevant</strong></p><p>In all respect Canis, animal rights rhetoric wouldn't be positive towards fisheries no matter what. Still, fisheries account for some part or more of the protein of millions of people. In Norway we annually harvest enough protein in just herring to feed more than the domestic population, and that with a herring population who is on the rise from a total collapse some three decades ago. Natural resource administrator do as good as they can, and we have to be able to put the label of sustainable on "to the best of our knowledge-"knowledge to do anything. We already know agriculture is unsustainable the moment the plow hits the soil, but have to do the best from there. </p><p>
Fisheries can be quite efficient in energy (if done close shore), don't have to be fertilized, it ensures valuable phosphorous and other nutrients is retreived from the sea back to terrestrial environments, and has some pretty healthful properties. It isn't always sustainable, and yes, it does kill. </p><p>
Don't misunderstand me, I am very vegan-friendly, and eat very little animal products myself, but I see no reason that it is impossible to discuss degrees of sustainability even if one wouldn't eat fish from moral reasons.</p>
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				<p><strong>100% irrelevant</strong></p><p>In all respect Canis, animal rights rhetoric wouldn't be positive towards fisheries no matter what. Still, fisheries account for some part or more of the protein of millions of people. In Norway we annually harvest enough protein in just herring to feed more than the domestic population, and that with a herring population who is on the rise from a total collapse some three decades ago. Natural resource administrator do as good as they can, and we have to be able to put the label of sustainable on "to the best of our knowledge-"knowledge to do anything. We already know agriculture is unsustainable the moment the plow hits the soil, but have to do the best from there. </p><p>
Fisheries can be quite efficient in energy (if done close shore), don't have to be fertilized, it ensures valuable phosphorous and other nutrients is retreived from the sea back to terrestrial environments, and has some pretty healthful properties. It isn't always sustainable, and yes, it does kill. </p><p>
Don't misunderstand me, I am very vegan-friendly, and eat very little animal products myself, but I see no reason that it is impossible to discuss degrees of sustainability even if one wouldn't eat fish from moral reasons.</p>
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            <title>Comment #33 by oliverl2004</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/checkout-line-school-of-fish/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:24:13 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Calamari</strong></p><p>You may want to do some research about eating calamari often at restaurants. I believe I have come across information on some types of squid being endangered. &nbsp;</p>
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				<p><strong>Calamari</strong></p><p>You may want to do some research about eating calamari often at restaurants. I believe I have come across information on some types of squid being endangered. &nbsp;</p>
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