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            <title>Comment #1 by Whiskerfish</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:39:30 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Jim Morrison<p>That's all fine and well, but what about The Doors?<p>
Check out<p>
<a href="http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/01/23/the-new-friends-of-the-earth/" rel="nofollow">http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/01/23/the-new-friend...<p>
Seems like grand gestures play better than the simple stuff. Reports with catchy titles obviously work better for the bottom line than actually putting doors on fridges (which is great for you, being in the report-writing and not fridge-door-fitting game and all).<p>
How about advising your overpayed clients (do they overpay you?) to quit flying in green beans from pesticide-suffused greenhouses in Kenya and instead give British farmers a decent price for their goods? <p>
You can also tell Marks and Sparks that their South African offshoot (which trades under the name Woolworths - no connection to Woolworths in the UK or USA - I guess because it wasn't convenient to have 'real' Marks and Spencers operating in the days of Apartheid) leads the pack out here in terms of transporting goods over ridiculous distances and wrapping them up in as much plastic that they can. &nbsp;<p>
I can buy Israeli avocados more easily than South African ones in Woolworths branches in Cape Town, fer chrissakes (in fact, I've only ever seen Israeli ones in our local branch! And the SA ones taste better!) The very fact that Woolworths SA displays no inclination to be even vaguely green makes it very clear that M&amp;S's greening drive has no moral dimension, but is purely based in pandering to perceived customer preference ('Ooh! It's covered in a lot of shiny plastic! It must be worth the premium price they're asking!'). M&amp;S are followers, not leaders.<p>
I worked on a British farm and the way UK supermarkets treat farmers is nothing short of criminal. The amount of GHGs supermarkets emit to bring in crops - that could be grown in the UK - from all over the world must be amazing.<p>
Scuse my cynicism on this count. I just saw, first-hand, far too much bullshit going on in the agri-food business while I lived in the UK, and far too many overhyped consultants spouting greenwash to protect the supermarkets who were causing a lot of the grief.<p>
The people who run supermarkets are grownups that should be held to the same moral standards as the rest of us. We shouldn't be fawning over them when they edit just a small part of their mendacious, un-visionary behaviour.<p>
Whiskerfish</p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Jim Morrison<p>That's all fine and well, but what about The Doors?<p>
Check out<p>
<a href="http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/01/23/the-new-friends-of-the-earth/" rel="nofollow">http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/01/23/the-new-friend...<p>
Seems like grand gestures play better than the simple stuff. Reports with catchy titles obviously work better for the bottom line than actually putting doors on fridges (which is great for you, being in the report-writing and not fridge-door-fitting game and all).<p>
How about advising your overpayed clients (do they overpay you?) to quit flying in green beans from pesticide-suffused greenhouses in Kenya and instead give British farmers a decent price for their goods? <p>
You can also tell Marks and Sparks that their South African offshoot (which trades under the name Woolworths - no connection to Woolworths in the UK or USA - I guess because it wasn't convenient to have 'real' Marks and Spencers operating in the days of Apartheid) leads the pack out here in terms of transporting goods over ridiculous distances and wrapping them up in as much plastic that they can. &nbsp;<p>
I can buy Israeli avocados more easily than South African ones in Woolworths branches in Cape Town, fer chrissakes (in fact, I've only ever seen Israeli ones in our local branch! And the SA ones taste better!) The very fact that Woolworths SA displays no inclination to be even vaguely green makes it very clear that M&amp;S's greening drive has no moral dimension, but is purely based in pandering to perceived customer preference ('Ooh! It's covered in a lot of shiny plastic! It must be worth the premium price they're asking!'). M&amp;S are followers, not leaders.<p>
I worked on a British farm and the way UK supermarkets treat farmers is nothing short of criminal. The amount of GHGs supermarkets emit to bring in crops - that could be grown in the UK - from all over the world must be amazing.<p>
Scuse my cynicism on this count. I just saw, first-hand, far too much bullshit going on in the agri-food business while I lived in the UK, and far too many overhyped consultants spouting greenwash to protect the supermarkets who were causing a lot of the grief.<p>
The people who run supermarkets are grownups that should be held to the same moral standards as the rest of us. We shouldn't be fawning over them when they edit just a small part of their mendacious, un-visionary behaviour.<p>
Whiskerfish</p></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by alisonrae</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 04:47:32 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>&quot;sustainability&quot; contradiction</strong></p><p>Its great to see big box stores trying to do the right thing...its hard not to argue the potential in mainstreaming 'green.' &nbsp;However, I'm afraid to say that they'll have to refrain from using the term 'sustainability' to mask their efforts. &nbsp;Unfortunately becoming 'green' and 'carbon neutral' does NOT imply a whole-systems approach to running a business. &nbsp;They fail in the areas of labor issues, fair trade, social welfare, globalisation, sprawl, etc. &nbsp;</p><p>
Wallmarts, Tescos, and the like, thrive in suburban settings, and we all know that suburban sprawl is an oxymoron for the word green, and especially for the word sustainability. &nbsp;..Becoming green may even give leeway for wallmarts to diversify their big box growth, and spread into city-centres, given the dense population of 'green urban professionals'. &nbsp;So, will the world become one big homogenous Wallmart zoo? &nbsp;</p><p>
All in all, I'm supporting a big box extinction. &nbsp;Its the only way for them to become 'sustainable'. If they become green, yes, it will slow down the rate of planetary destruction and make green consumption more convenient. But its just not the answer. We're better off teaching our kids about sustainability, rather than hypothesize how the greening of Wallmart will make us better off. &nbsp;</p><p>
I have the feeling we'll just be witnessing green-washing at its best. Given their mass-consumption ethic, they are bound to give the word green a bad name--</p><p>
Alison</p>
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				<p><strong>&quot;sustainability&quot; contradiction</strong></p><p>Its great to see big box stores trying to do the right thing...its hard not to argue the potential in mainstreaming 'green.' &nbsp;However, I'm afraid to say that they'll have to refrain from using the term 'sustainability' to mask their efforts. &nbsp;Unfortunately becoming 'green' and 'carbon neutral' does NOT imply a whole-systems approach to running a business. &nbsp;They fail in the areas of labor issues, fair trade, social welfare, globalisation, sprawl, etc. &nbsp;</p><p>
Wallmarts, Tescos, and the like, thrive in suburban settings, and we all know that suburban sprawl is an oxymoron for the word green, and especially for the word sustainability. &nbsp;..Becoming green may even give leeway for wallmarts to diversify their big box growth, and spread into city-centres, given the dense population of 'green urban professionals'. &nbsp;So, will the world become one big homogenous Wallmart zoo? &nbsp;</p><p>
All in all, I'm supporting a big box extinction. &nbsp;Its the only way for them to become 'sustainable'. If they become green, yes, it will slow down the rate of planetary destruction and make green consumption more convenient. But its just not the answer. We're better off teaching our kids about sustainability, rather than hypothesize how the greening of Wallmart will make us better off. &nbsp;</p><p>
I have the feeling we'll just be witnessing green-washing at its best. Given their mass-consumption ethic, they are bound to give the word green a bad name--</p><p>
Alison</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Whiskerfish</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:56:40 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Peter Madden, ...</strong></p><p>... how about a reply?</p><p>
Whiskerfish</p>
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				<p><strong>Peter Madden, ...</strong></p><p>... how about a reply?</p><p>
Whiskerfish</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by ivanoats</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/</link>
			<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:25:48 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>The triple bottom line still includes people<p>Sustainability has to include a fair labor component. I agree with Alison, and I'm afraid that anything else is just greenwash. &nbsp;More <a href="http://www.ivanenviroman.com/2006/12/09/the-triple-bottom-line-still-includes-people/" rel="nofollow">here.</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The triple bottom line still includes people<p>Sustainability has to include a fair labor component. I agree with Alison, and I'm afraid that anything else is just greenwash. &nbsp;More <a href="http://www.ivanenviroman.com/2006/12/09/the-triple-bottom-line-still-includes-people/" rel="nofollow">here.</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Peter Madden</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:00:48 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Response</strong></p><p>Whiskerfish, Alison and Ivanoats, sorry for the delay in replying. </p><p>
I'm not claiming that supermarkets are suddenly paragons of virtue, but that there are good reasons to welcome their moves on climate change, which is after all the biggest environmental challenge we face. I won't repeat these.</p><p>
On packaging - I couldn't agree with you more. And it is particulary annoying when it seems to be organic products fruit and vegetables that are the most over-packaged.</p><p>
On green beans from Kenya, the issue is not quite so clear cut. Some people in the UK argue that developing countries gain from export horticulture, especially when prices for traditional commodity exports decline. And on the environmental impact assessment, I'm not sure that growing in heated greenhouses in Kent is any more sustainable. The best answer to this one is probably to eat as seasonably as you can. (I can't see any excuse for Israeli avocadoes in S Africa.).</p><p>
Treatment of producers is also complicated. In the UK we have had decades of farming subsidy, which has led to over-production and over-capacity in some agricultural products - and thus drops in price and quality. But I do agree that there are likley to be problems when you have a handful of very big and powerful retailers. I do think that M&amp;S, for example, are trying to work well with suppliers.</p><p>
On Labour issues, I suspect that these big UK companies and brands are probably better than many others. I know M&amp;S are using fairtrade cotton now in many mainstream lines. And both have codes of conduct and audits - precisely because they are well know brands. </p><p>
For me, the big remaining question is to do with the sheer size and continuing growth of the major supermarkets, and what this means for sustainability. If the essence of the business model is to sell ever more stuff to ever more people in ever more places, we will need more than the one planet earth. </p><p>
Now, I know it is only a start, but the promises of Tesco to restrict air freight to only 1% of all imports, and more importantly, to make big absolute cuts in C02 emissions, are something more businesses could do with following.</p><p>
Peter &nbsp; </p>
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				<p><strong>Response</strong></p><p>Whiskerfish, Alison and Ivanoats, sorry for the delay in replying. </p><p>
I'm not claiming that supermarkets are suddenly paragons of virtue, but that there are good reasons to welcome their moves on climate change, which is after all the biggest environmental challenge we face. I won't repeat these.</p><p>
On packaging - I couldn't agree with you more. And it is particulary annoying when it seems to be organic products fruit and vegetables that are the most over-packaged.</p><p>
On green beans from Kenya, the issue is not quite so clear cut. Some people in the UK argue that developing countries gain from export horticulture, especially when prices for traditional commodity exports decline. And on the environmental impact assessment, I'm not sure that growing in heated greenhouses in Kent is any more sustainable. The best answer to this one is probably to eat as seasonably as you can. (I can't see any excuse for Israeli avocadoes in S Africa.).</p><p>
Treatment of producers is also complicated. In the UK we have had decades of farming subsidy, which has led to over-production and over-capacity in some agricultural products - and thus drops in price and quality. But I do agree that there are likley to be problems when you have a handful of very big and powerful retailers. I do think that M&amp;S, for example, are trying to work well with suppliers.</p><p>
On Labour issues, I suspect that these big UK companies and brands are probably better than many others. I know M&amp;S are using fairtrade cotton now in many mainstream lines. And both have codes of conduct and audits - precisely because they are well know brands. </p><p>
For me, the big remaining question is to do with the sheer size and continuing growth of the major supermarkets, and what this means for sustainability. If the essence of the business model is to sell ever more stuff to ever more people in ever more places, we will need more than the one planet earth. </p><p>
Now, I know it is only a start, but the promises of Tesco to restrict air freight to only 1% of all imports, and more importantly, to make big absolute cuts in C02 emissions, are something more businesses could do with following.</p><p>
Peter &nbsp; </p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by Whiskerfish</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:11:17 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Thanks, Peter!</strong></p><p>glad to know you're listening, at least, even if some of your clients aren't.</p><p>
Whiskerfish</p>
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				<p><strong>Thanks, Peter!</strong></p><p>glad to know you're listening, at least, even if some of your clients aren't.</p><p>
Whiskerfish</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by sayno2gm</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:13:02 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Tescos = DREADsco<p>I have an intense dislike to Tescos.<br>
Supermarkets are tarred with the same brush.<br>
The stack em' high, sell em' cheap philosophy has been pertinent in the collapse of British industries right across the board from the local grocery shops to the independant farmer. <br>
Their greedy monoploisation has seen local shops disappear from the UK high streets, to be replaced by 20 to 30 aisle supermarket with produce from across the world and faceless checkout assistants.<br>
Their buying power has put a strangle hold on British farming, eroding sustainability.<br>
Their food importing has clocked up enough C02 to perpetuate global warming for the next 50 years ofr more.<br>
Now we are to believe that these economic consortiums have a conscience?<br>
Unlikely.<br>
It has only been talk of environmental issues/regualtions and the possibility of competition that supermarkets have been forced to splash around the green paint.<br>
A reduction in carbon-dioxide emissions and a decrease of their redundant "landfilling non-biodegradeable" packaging, hardly groundbreaking.<p>
<a href="http://www.tescopoly.org/index" rel="nofollow">http://www.tescopoly.org/index<br>
</br></a></p></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Tescos = DREADsco<p>I have an intense dislike to Tescos.<br>
Supermarkets are tarred with the same brush.<br>
The stack em' high, sell em' cheap philosophy has been pertinent in the collapse of British industries right across the board from the local grocery shops to the independant farmer. <br>
Their greedy monoploisation has seen local shops disappear from the UK high streets, to be replaced by 20 to 30 aisle supermarket with produce from across the world and faceless checkout assistants.<br>
Their buying power has put a strangle hold on British farming, eroding sustainability.<br>
Their food importing has clocked up enough C02 to perpetuate global warming for the next 50 years ofr more.<br>
Now we are to believe that these economic consortiums have a conscience?<br>
Unlikely.<br>
It has only been talk of environmental issues/regualtions and the possibility of competition that supermarkets have been forced to splash around the green paint.<br>
A reduction in carbon-dioxide emissions and a decrease of their redundant "landfilling non-biodegradeable" packaging, hardly groundbreaking.<p>
<a href="http://www.tescopoly.org/index" rel="nofollow">http://www.tescopoly.org/index<br>
</br></a></p></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by garpol</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/brits-eye-view-british-supermarkets-are-going-green/</link>
			<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:03:24 -0800</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Tescos = DREADsco</strong></p><p>Even if Tesco stop importing from overseas, they'll still truck the stuff up and down the motorway several times before it reaches the stores</p>
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				<p><strong>Tescos = DREADsco</strong></p><p>Even if Tesco stop importing from overseas, they'll still truck the stuff up and down the motorway several times before it reaches the stores</p>
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