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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for New batteries make a plug-in hybrid commercially viable]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by jdhlax</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 16:40:14 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>Subsidizing Destructive Technologies ...</strong></p><p>doesn't count? &nbsp;Why is "[t]he true test [of viability of a technology its] commercial success on the free market"? &nbsp;Without massive government subsidies for driving, gasoline would cost $10-15/gallon and nuclear power wouldn't exist. &nbsp;You're either not living in the real world, or you're propagandizing for big business.

<p>Jeff Hoffman</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Subsidizing Destructive Technologies ...</strong></p><p>doesn't count? &nbsp;Why is "[t]he true test [of viability of a technology its] commercial success on the free market"? &nbsp;Without massive government subsidies for driving, gasoline would cost $10-15/gallon and nuclear power wouldn't exist. &nbsp;You're either not living in the real world, or you're propagandizing for big business.

<p>Jeff Hoffman</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 01:02:18 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Jeff,<p>Go here to see the price of <a href="http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/price.html" rel="nofollow">gas under different governments around the world.<p>
In the UK, you pay about $5.5 per gallon for gasoline. Over half the cost is from taxation, which is the opposite of subsidization. It is an urban legend that gas would cost $10-$15 a gallon without shadowy government subsidies to the evil oil empire. <p>
And, nuclear power is a perfect example of what happens when you allow government to subsidize (favor) a given energy scheme.<p>
Government funding for research is one thing, pork barrel politics that create unlevel playing fields is another.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Jeff,<p>Go here to see the price of <a href="http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/price.html" rel="nofollow">gas under different governments around the world.<p>
In the UK, you pay about $5.5 per gallon for gasoline. Over half the cost is from taxation, which is the opposite of subsidization. It is an urban legend that gas would cost $10-$15 a gallon without shadowy government subsidies to the evil oil empire. <p>
And, nuclear power is a perfect example of what happens when you allow government to subsidize (favor) a given energy scheme.<p>
Government funding for research is one thing, pork barrel politics that create unlevel playing fields is another.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></p></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by jdhlax</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 07:10:07 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Driving Is Heavily Subsidized</strong></p><p>Biod, I didn't say gasoline was subsidized, I said driving is. &nbsp;Big difference. &nbsp;Even the more enlightened places like western Europe that tax gas more heavily than the U.S. don't tax it enough to pay for all of the road construction, maintenance and repair, and infrastructure needed for driving.</p><p>
More importantly, no one taxes gasoline to pay for undoing the environmental and ecological harms caused by roads and driving, to the extent that's possible. &nbsp;These harms include ecosystem destruction from prospecting and drilling for oil, and for refining oil, air and water pollution created by oil refinieries, transportation of oil from extraction to the pump after refining, air pollution caused by burning gasoline, and roads that destroy natural areas and fragment wildlife habitat.

<p>Jeff Hoffman</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Driving Is Heavily Subsidized</strong></p><p>Biod, I didn't say gasoline was subsidized, I said driving is. &nbsp;Big difference. &nbsp;Even the more enlightened places like western Europe that tax gas more heavily than the U.S. don't tax it enough to pay for all of the road construction, maintenance and repair, and infrastructure needed for driving.</p><p>
More importantly, no one taxes gasoline to pay for undoing the environmental and ecological harms caused by roads and driving, to the extent that's possible. &nbsp;These harms include ecosystem destruction from prospecting and drilling for oil, and for refining oil, air and water pollution created by oil refinieries, transportation of oil from extraction to the pump after refining, air pollution caused by burning gasoline, and roads that destroy natural areas and fragment wildlife habitat.

<p>Jeff Hoffman</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:40:23 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Calculation on battery weight.</strong></p><p>I did some estimating on the possible weight of an economy car battery composed of these nano-phosphate lithium ion batteries of the type used in the 36 volt DeWalt power tools bio-d.</p><p>
It comes down to this. &nbsp;If the power tool battery lasts for 22 minutes at 1 kw output power (maximum output is 1.5 kw). </p><p>
Then a 280 pound battery, composed of about 127 of these single batteries would power an economy sized hybrid car, like the Prius, for a range of <br>
about 200 miles between recharge.</p><p>
And with the recharge taking minutes, that means any internal combustion engine, transmission, and all the systems that come along with them will save maybe 500 pounds off the vehicle weight. &nbsp;</p><p>
Replaced with 280 pounds of batteries that leaves 230 pounds for the electric motor and controller and charger. &nbsp;And the vehicle would weigh the same as before the electric conversion. &nbsp;</p><p>
Making the mileage calculation all work out fine.</p><p>
And if &nbsp;a longer trip is required between charging for a few applications, a 140 pound microturbine that operates on kerosene, diesel, or biodiesel can temporarily replace half the batteries. &nbsp;</p><p>
The plugin range would still be 100 miles, and the turbine would operate at very high efficiency in an auxillary capacity. &nbsp;Maybe 10% of total miles driven by a typical cross section of these vehicles would be powered by the auxillary turbine.</p><p>
Reducing fuel consumption by 90%. &nbsp;</p><p>
Now to get test data on these new power tools to verify these estimates.</p><p>
&nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Calculation on battery weight.</strong></p><p>I did some estimating on the possible weight of an economy car battery composed of these nano-phosphate lithium ion batteries of the type used in the 36 volt DeWalt power tools bio-d.</p><p>
It comes down to this. &nbsp;If the power tool battery lasts for 22 minutes at 1 kw output power (maximum output is 1.5 kw). </p><p>
Then a 280 pound battery, composed of about 127 of these single batteries would power an economy sized hybrid car, like the Prius, for a range of <br>
about 200 miles between recharge.</p><p>
And with the recharge taking minutes, that means any internal combustion engine, transmission, and all the systems that come along with them will save maybe 500 pounds off the vehicle weight. &nbsp;</p><p>
Replaced with 280 pounds of batteries that leaves 230 pounds for the electric motor and controller and charger. &nbsp;And the vehicle would weigh the same as before the electric conversion. &nbsp;</p><p>
Making the mileage calculation all work out fine.</p><p>
And if &nbsp;a longer trip is required between charging for a few applications, a 140 pound microturbine that operates on kerosene, diesel, or biodiesel can temporarily replace half the batteries. &nbsp;</p><p>
The plugin range would still be 100 miles, and the turbine would operate at very high efficiency in an auxillary capacity. &nbsp;Maybe 10% of total miles driven by a typical cross section of these vehicles would be powered by the auxillary turbine.</p><p>
Reducing fuel consumption by 90%. &nbsp;</p><p>
Now to get test data on these new power tools to verify these estimates.</p><p>
&nbsp;

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:58:54 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/5</guid>
			<description><![CDATA[
				<p><strong>My bad Jeff<p>Can't really argue with that.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>My bad Jeff<p>Can't really argue with that.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Help acquire and protect ecological hotspots, give to a conservation organization: <a href="http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.saveourbiodiversity.com</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:05:31 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/break-on-through-to-the-other-side/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>Weight<p>Check it.<p>
<a href="http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html<p>
Looks like 87 + 35 pounds for this 67 hp motor and controller.. &nbsp;122 pounds. &nbsp;Leaving 108 pounds for the charger and other stuff.<p>
<a href="http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheets/MPM50.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheets/MPM50.pdf<p>
Call a venture capitalist! &nbsp;Now!<p>
The power of an electric notor at 67 hp acts more like a gasoline motor over 100 hp in terms of acceleration, that is the rumor I have heard. &nbsp;This should give good performance.<p>
These are the motors used in the hybrid humvee.<p>
<a href="http://www.evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></a></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Weight<p>Check it.<p>
<a href="http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html<p>
Looks like 87 + 35 pounds for this 67 hp motor and controller.. &nbsp;122 pounds. &nbsp;Leaving 108 pounds for the charger and other stuff.<p>
<a href="http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheets/MPM50.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheets/MPM50.pdf<p>
Call a venture capitalist! &nbsp;Now!<p>
The power of an electric notor at 67 hp acts more like a gasoline motor over 100 hp in terms of acceleration, that is the rumor I have heard. &nbsp;This should give good performance.<p>
These are the motors used in the hybrid humvee.<p>
<a href="http://www.evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></a></p></p></p></p></a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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