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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Business groups, community activists blast California&#8217;s cap-and-trade plans]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 03:04:10 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>CO2 Now Obsolete -- US Goes Loosely Coupled<p><br>
<a href="http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/36758" rel="nofollow">http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/36758<p>
US firm unveils plans for mini nuclear reactors<p>
Now, however, Hyperion Power Generation -- a US company based in New Mexico -- has brought the dream of tiny nuclear reactors one step closer with its Power Module. This nuclear reactor -- or "battery" as the firm calls it -- is not much larger than a hot-tub and could supply thermal energy at a rate of about 70 MW. That could be converted into about 27 MW of electricity, which would be enough to supply about 20,000 US households.<p>
Unlike conventional nuclear power plants, Hyperion's reactor uses uranium hydride, which is essentially enriched uranium metal that has absorbed a large amount of hydrogen.<p>
This is the perfect technology for Agraria.<br>
</br></p></p></p></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>CO2 Now Obsolete -- US Goes Loosely Coupled<p><br>
<a href="http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/36758" rel="nofollow">http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/36758<p>
US firm unveils plans for mini nuclear reactors<p>
Now, however, Hyperion Power Generation -- a US company based in New Mexico -- has brought the dream of tiny nuclear reactors one step closer with its Power Module. This nuclear reactor -- or "battery" as the firm calls it -- is not much larger than a hot-tub and could supply thermal energy at a rate of about 70 MW. That could be converted into about 27 MW of electricity, which would be enough to supply about 20,000 US households.<p>
Unlike conventional nuclear power plants, Hyperion's reactor uses uranium hydride, which is essentially enriched uranium metal that has absorbed a large amount of hydrogen.<p>
This is the perfect technology for Agraria.<br>
</br></p></p></p></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:50:00 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>CA wised up. <p>It's taken us a while but after Enron and the housing/finance bust we are starting to get wary of "market-based" trading schemes that are handed down by smiling millionaires in suits. We know what the final act looks like. <p>
If cap-and-trade doesn't fit that description nothing does. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>CA wised up. <p>It's taken us a while but after Enron and the housing/finance bust we are starting to get wary of "market-based" trading schemes that are handed down by smiling millionaires in suits. We know what the final act looks like. <p>
If cap-and-trade doesn't fit that description nothing does. 

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by bigTom</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:33:46 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/3</guid>
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				<p><strong> CO2 is NOT a local pollutant.</strong></p><p>&nbsp; It seems the common thread here, is localities looking for controls on local health damaging pollutants. That issue is orthogonal to the CO2 issue, for which the cap and trade program was designed. Cap and trade (or better a CO2 tax) is ideal for a global pollutant like CO2, but is not the right system for controlling local point sources of pollution. That would be an entirely different program.</p>
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				<p><strong> CO2 is NOT a local pollutant.</strong></p><p>&nbsp; It seems the common thread here, is localities looking for controls on local health damaging pollutants. That issue is orthogonal to the CO2 issue, for which the cap and trade program was designed. Cap and trade (or better a CO2 tax) is ideal for a global pollutant like CO2, but is not the right system for controlling local point sources of pollution. That would be an entirely different program.</p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by human power</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:53:46 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Cap and Trade: too little, too late</strong></p><p>If the scale of the climate change problem was such that we only needed to reduce our GHG emissions by 20-30% over the next four decades, then cap and trade or carbon taxes would be workable. Unfortunately, our decades of head-in-the-sand behavior has led us to the point where we need to reduce our emissions by 80-90% in less than twenty years or risk being the generation that ended history.</p><p>
Since the wealthiest 20% of the population are directly or indirectly responsible for well over 40% of our GHG emissions and they are insensitive to the price associated with those emissions, neither state or federal cap and trade (emissions can still be produced off-shore while the benefits are realized at home) nor carbon taxes will cause adequate emissions reductions.</p><p>
There seems to be only one way to get out of this mess: personal GHG-emissions quotas. The advantages are several: 1.) we're all in it together. 2.) It can be implemented immediately with quotas on liquid fuels and grid power. 3.) It undoes globalization.</p>
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				<p><strong>Cap and Trade: too little, too late</strong></p><p>If the scale of the climate change problem was such that we only needed to reduce our GHG emissions by 20-30% over the next four decades, then cap and trade or carbon taxes would be workable. Unfortunately, our decades of head-in-the-sand behavior has led us to the point where we need to reduce our emissions by 80-90% in less than twenty years or risk being the generation that ended history.</p><p>
Since the wealthiest 20% of the population are directly or indirectly responsible for well over 40% of our GHG emissions and they are insensitive to the price associated with those emissions, neither state or federal cap and trade (emissions can still be produced off-shore while the benefits are realized at home) nor carbon taxes will cause adequate emissions reductions.</p><p>
There seems to be only one way to get out of this mess: personal GHG-emissions quotas. The advantages are several: 1.) we're all in it together. 2.) It can be implemented immediately with quotas on liquid fuels and grid power. 3.) It undoes globalization.</p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:06:20 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Translation</strong></p><p>"...they said excessive regulatory costs could drive electric bills sky high, further harming consumers and struggling businesses."</p><p>
Only "free" markets unfettered by government regulation can work. &nbsp; The same old talking point. &nbsp;Enron used it to conceive this bastard child, cap and trade.</p><p>
Only government leadership can address this economic and climate emergency. &nbsp;We have seen what unregulated "free" markets have produced. &nbsp;Corruption amd manipulation by insiders that has caused this economic crisis.</p><p>
Insist on direct subsidy diversion from the oil and fossil fuel industry to specific renewable/conservation technology and contracts from government particularly with auto makers, that specify the production of plugin hybrids in return for bail out money.</p><p>
There are enough renewable/conservation energy devices that have already been developed, only waiting for mass production, to compete on a pure cost basis with fossil and nuclear power. &nbsp;Government action needs to be focused on this mass production effort, not on boondoggle corruption friendly schemes like cap and trade, auctioned GHG permits, or offset plans.<br>


<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Translation</strong></p><p>"...they said excessive regulatory costs could drive electric bills sky high, further harming consumers and struggling businesses."</p><p>
Only "free" markets unfettered by government regulation can work. &nbsp; The same old talking point. &nbsp;Enron used it to conceive this bastard child, cap and trade.</p><p>
Only government leadership can address this economic and climate emergency. &nbsp;We have seen what unregulated "free" markets have produced. &nbsp;Corruption amd manipulation by insiders that has caused this economic crisis.</p><p>
Insist on direct subsidy diversion from the oil and fossil fuel industry to specific renewable/conservation technology and contracts from government particularly with auto makers, that specify the production of plugin hybrids in return for bail out money.</p><p>
There are enough renewable/conservation energy devices that have already been developed, only waiting for mass production, to compete on a pure cost basis with fossil and nuclear power. &nbsp;Government action needs to be focused on this mass production effort, not on boondoggle corruption friendly schemes like cap and trade, auctioned GHG permits, or offset plans.<br>


<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog     John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin </p></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by vakibs</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:03:01 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>bigTom joins the NIMBY party ? <p>CO2 is not a local pollutant ? What is that supposed to mean ? <p>
There are local pollutants and global pollutants ? <p>
Here I am thinking that the globe is one single connected component with its ecosystem under a sensitive balance. &nbsp;<p>
Pollution is bad, wherever that is. <p>
Sinking water tables are bad, wherever that is. <p>
Extinction of biodiversity is bad, wherever that is. <p>
In order to prevent catastrophes like global warming.. we need to .. yes. <b>"Think globally, act locally". Cap &amp; Trade, my ass. <p>
Here's me rooting for you Californians, you can do that :) Death to all those chimneys. 

<p>Let's think in terms of <a href="http://the-redpill.blogspot.com/2008/08/eco-dollar-future-global-currency.html" rel="nofollow">eco-dollars. </a></p></p></b></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>bigTom joins the NIMBY party ? <p>CO2 is not a local pollutant ? What is that supposed to mean ? <p>
There are local pollutants and global pollutants ? <p>
Here I am thinking that the globe is one single connected component with its ecosystem under a sensitive balance. &nbsp;<p>
Pollution is bad, wherever that is. <p>
Sinking water tables are bad, wherever that is. <p>
Extinction of biodiversity is bad, wherever that is. <p>
In order to prevent catastrophes like global warming.. we need to .. yes. <b>"Think globally, act locally". Cap &amp; Trade, my ass. <p>
Here's me rooting for you Californians, you can do that :) Death to all those chimneys. 

<p>Let's think in terms of <a href="http://the-redpill.blogspot.com/2008/08/eco-dollar-future-global-currency.html" rel="nofollow">eco-dollars. </a></p></p></b></p></p></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Jonas</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 05:19:21 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Redistributing money to poor countries is good</strong></p><p>If this cap-and-trade mechanism has a component that redistributes wealth from rich Californians to the world's poor, then that would be great.</p><p>
CO2 is a global problem. It doesn't matter where the reductions are made - in California or in Congo.</p><p>
Now I understand the poor in California, but they are "wealthy poor". They should understand that their are also the "real poor", people who make less than $0.3 a day. </p><p>
If the cap-and-trade shifts money to the "really poor", so that they can get access to low-cost renewable energy, or so that they don't have to burn down forests, then we all benefit. </p><p>
Maybe it's cruel to make a distinction between the "well off poor" and the "real poor", but the distinction is there, and a cap-and-trade with export of money to the real poor, can help close this wealth gap.</p>
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				<p><strong>Redistributing money to poor countries is good</strong></p><p>If this cap-and-trade mechanism has a component that redistributes wealth from rich Californians to the world's poor, then that would be great.</p><p>
CO2 is a global problem. It doesn't matter where the reductions are made - in California or in Congo.</p><p>
Now I understand the poor in California, but they are "wealthy poor". They should understand that their are also the "real poor", people who make less than $0.3 a day. </p><p>
If the cap-and-trade shifts money to the "really poor", so that they can get access to low-cost renewable energy, or so that they don't have to burn down forests, then we all benefit. </p><p>
Maybe it's cruel to make a distinction between the "well off poor" and the "real poor", but the distinction is there, and a cap-and-trade with export of money to the real poor, can help close this wealth gap.</p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by vakibs</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 06:46:51 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>cap and trade will not help the poor<p>It will only assuage the guilt of the rich countries, and lets them pollute for much longer into the future. <p>
It is plain silly to think that extreme poverty can be eliminated by buying raw materials from a third world country. When cornered into a situation where they have no other option, most third world countries (atleast their governing classes) will welcome an opportunity to sell their raw materials - such as iron ore, gasolene or biomass. But this will do nothing to improve the economic situation of the general population. <p>
The economic wellbeing of a country is directly related to how much the country is industrialized. When most of the menial work is automated, people will not have to work on back-breaking work just to have a meal. <p>
The quality of exports that are beneficial to the economic growth of a country, in the long run are in the increasing order, as follows <p>


raw materials and biomass<br>
agricultural products<br>
manufactured goods<br>
services <p>


The task of development economics is to steer a country forward in this pecking order of world trade. This process has to be done in a clinical fashion, similar to the manner a doctor treats a patient : the book by Dr Jeffrey Sachs (the end of poverty) is a great introduction. The first thing we need to do to eliminate poverty is strict commitment to the millenium development goals of the UNO. <p>
Cap &amp; Trade has no relation to the third world poverty. It is just masquerading as being so. In reality, it is a crime against the world's poor where the rich continue to pollute and put the planet in peril. <br>


<p>Let's think in terms of <a href="http://the-redpill.blogspot.com/2008/08/eco-dollar-future-global-currency.html" rel="nofollow">eco-dollars. </a></p></br></p></p></br></br></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>cap and trade will not help the poor<p>It will only assuage the guilt of the rich countries, and lets them pollute for much longer into the future. <p>
It is plain silly to think that extreme poverty can be eliminated by buying raw materials from a third world country. When cornered into a situation where they have no other option, most third world countries (atleast their governing classes) will welcome an opportunity to sell their raw materials - such as iron ore, gasolene or biomass. But this will do nothing to improve the economic situation of the general population. <p>
The economic wellbeing of a country is directly related to how much the country is industrialized. When most of the menial work is automated, people will not have to work on back-breaking work just to have a meal. <p>
The quality of exports that are beneficial to the economic growth of a country, in the long run are in the increasing order, as follows <p>


raw materials and biomass<br>
agricultural products<br>
manufactured goods<br>
services <p>


The task of development economics is to steer a country forward in this pecking order of world trade. This process has to be done in a clinical fashion, similar to the manner a doctor treats a patient : the book by Dr Jeffrey Sachs (the end of poverty) is a great introduction. The first thing we need to do to eliminate poverty is strict commitment to the millenium development goals of the UNO. <p>
Cap &amp; Trade has no relation to the third world poverty. It is just masquerading as being so. In reality, it is a crime against the world's poor where the rich continue to pollute and put the planet in peril. <br>


<p>Let's think in terms of <a href="http://the-redpill.blogspot.com/2008/08/eco-dollar-future-global-currency.html" rel="nofollow">eco-dollars. </a></p></br></p></p></br></br></br></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by Glenn Hurowitz</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:27:55 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>really? </strong></p><p>The idea that there's a wide backlash against Schwarzenegger's plan or cap-and-auction seems exaggerated to me; I'm I know this is just a blog post, but it would have been good to show that there's a lot of praise to go along with the criticism to give a fuller picture of what's happening. </p>
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				<p><strong>really? </strong></p><p>The idea that there's a wide backlash against Schwarzenegger's plan or cap-and-auction seems exaggerated to me; I'm I know this is just a blog post, but it would have been good to show that there's a lot of praise to go along with the criticism to give a fuller picture of what's happening. </p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by tboggia</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 06:53:17 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Si se puede</strong></p><p>haha, REALLY?</p><p>
&lt;quote&gt; As they filed out, they shouted, [...] "Si Se Puede, Si Se Puede" -- a pointed translation of Obama's campaign slogan, "Yes We Can, Yes We Can."&lt;/quote&gt</p><p>
Are you kidding me? I hate to pick at straws here, but "Si se puede" is the landmark chant of the United Farm Workers and Cesar Chavez's movement. </p><p>
Obama is the one that pointedly translated the slogan. If I was a mexican farmworker I'd be pretty pissed. Being an Italian immigrant, I can only stand in solidarity.</p><p>
Great article by the way. 

<p>www.campusprogress.org</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Si se puede</strong></p><p>haha, REALLY?</p><p>
&lt;quote&gt; As they filed out, they shouted, [...] "Si Se Puede, Si Se Puede" -- a pointed translation of Obama's campaign slogan, "Yes We Can, Yes We Can."&lt;/quote&gt</p><p>
Are you kidding me? I hate to pick at straws here, but "Si se puede" is the landmark chant of the United Farm Workers and Cesar Chavez's movement. </p><p>
Obama is the one that pointedly translated the slogan. If I was a mexican farmworker I'd be pretty pissed. Being an Italian immigrant, I can only stand in solidarity.</p><p>
Great article by the way. 

<p>www.campusprogress.org</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by wesrolley</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:25:03 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>Maybe Nichols is the problem.<p>If Obama is considering a top job for Mary Nichols, he is not as intelligent as I thought. <p>
A recent press release from the Green Party of California called on Schwarzenegger to <a href="http://www.cagreens.org/press/pr081119.shtml" rel="nofollow">fire Nichols. &nbsp;When working at EPA, she ignored all enforcement obligations and pushed for a pollution credit scheme that failed miserably. &nbsp;PEER has a report the pretty well documented both failures.<p>
Now, she is repeating the same thing in California. Those who don't recognize their mistakes can never learn from them. 

<p>Wes Rolley

CoChair - EcoAction Committee
Green Party US</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Maybe Nichols is the problem.<p>If Obama is considering a top job for Mary Nichols, he is not as intelligent as I thought. <p>
A recent press release from the Green Party of California called on Schwarzenegger to <a href="http://www.cagreens.org/press/pr081119.shtml" rel="nofollow">fire Nichols. &nbsp;When working at EPA, she ignored all enforcement obligations and pushed for a pollution credit scheme that failed miserably. &nbsp;PEER has a report the pretty well documented both failures.<p>
Now, she is repeating the same thing in California. Those who don't recognize their mistakes can never learn from them. 

<p>Wes Rolley

CoChair - EcoAction Committee
Green Party US</p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by Jessm</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:49:11 -0800</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/blowing-off-steam/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>No solidarity=No success</strong></p><p>"...Si Se Puede, Si Se Puede" -- a pointed translation of Obama's campaign slogan, 'Yes We Can, Yes We Can...' "</p><p>
I can't even express my disgust at the ignorance of this statement. &nbsp;Anyone who has ever worked at all with the Latino movements will know this chant begun long before Obama. &nbsp;You do know what the UFW is, right? &nbsp;I bet somewhere Delores Huerta is giving this "Veteran Environmental Journalist" a dirty look.</p><p>
If we can't begin to understand the at-risk constituencies we are supposedly fighting for, we can not win the battle against climate change. &nbsp;Solidarity the best way to advance our goals---but with ignorance like this, I assume "blowing off steam" and fighting amongst ourselves will be hindering us for a long time.</p>
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				<p><strong>No solidarity=No success</strong></p><p>"...Si Se Puede, Si Se Puede" -- a pointed translation of Obama's campaign slogan, 'Yes We Can, Yes We Can...' "</p><p>
I can't even express my disgust at the ignorance of this statement. &nbsp;Anyone who has ever worked at all with the Latino movements will know this chant begun long before Obama. &nbsp;You do know what the UFW is, right? &nbsp;I bet somewhere Delores Huerta is giving this "Veteran Environmental Journalist" a dirty look.</p><p>
If we can't begin to understand the at-risk constituencies we are supposedly fighting for, we can not win the battle against climate change. &nbsp;Solidarity the best way to advance our goals---but with ignorance like this, I assume "blowing off steam" and fighting amongst ourselves will be hindering us for a long time.</p>
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