<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for The human-scale, renewable, domestic power systems reviving rural Austrian economies]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:28:06 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/1 Dave,

do they grow trees as the biomass, do they take off pieces of the trees that grow back (I can't remember the technical word for this), do they harvest underbrush?

It's too bad that in the US, as soon as you talk about biomass, everybody starts thinking about fuel for cars, instead of fuel for heating.

]]> Dave,

do they grow trees as the biomass, do they take off pieces of the trees that grow back (I can't remember the technical word for this), do they harvest underbrush?

It's too bad that in the US, as soon as you talk about biomass, everybody starts thinking about fuel for cars, instead of fuel for heating.

]]> Comment #2 by Millstone http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:04:07 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/2 Nice Story

Did they provide you guys with any kinds of cost figures at all about these types of projects?

I'm intrigued by biomass, mainly because as a resident of the SE US since it is perhaps our most abundant renewable resource, but I don't see utilities building it any time soon.

I'm also curious as to whether or not this town was unique or if this is a model being pursued across the country(side)?

]]> Nice Story

Did they provide you guys with any kinds of cost figures at all about these types of projects?

I'm intrigued by biomass, mainly because as a resident of the SE US since it is perhaps our most abundant renewable resource, but I don't see utilities building it any time soon.

I'm also curious as to whether or not this town was unique or if this is a model being pursued across the country(side)?

]]> Comment #3 by sunflower http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:13:04 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/3 Excellent pictures

Europe has been doing biomass district heating for decades, free from the corruption of oily politicians.

Our biomass thermal mass home near Seattle has 55 cm thick walls.  Its easy, guilt free, and very economical.

]]> Excellent pictures

Europe has been doing biomass district heating for decades, free from the corruption of oily politicians.

Our biomass thermal mass home near Seattle has 55 cm thick walls.  Its easy, guilt free, and very economical.

]]> Comment #4 by David Roberts http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:23:09 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/4 Millstone,

They threw some cost numbers around but I didn't have a pen to write them down. It's higher than fossil fuel heat for now, for sure, and heavily subsidized. From what I can tell, they just don't seem to view cost as the end all be all. They did point out that costs were coming down rapidly as this stuff spreads.

This town was something of a model, but from my understanding this is happening all across Austria at a pretty rapid clip.

grist.org

]]> Millstone,

They threw some cost numbers around but I didn't have a pen to write them down. It's higher than fossil fuel heat for now, for sure, and heavily subsidized. From what I can tell, they just don't seem to view cost as the end all be all. They did point out that costs were coming down rapidly as this stuff spreads.

This town was something of a model, but from my understanding this is happening all across Austria at a pretty rapid clip.

grist.org

]]> Comment #5 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:32:44 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/5 Combustion and biodigestion

Hehey, "godknowswhat"?  The stinky component is manure or other high nitrogen waste, one part manure to 30 parts wood chips, straw, or other waste cellulose, that is the carbon.  At that nitrogen/carbon ratio, biogas is produced.

The manure would combine with carbon in the environment if it were allowed to run off or put directly on fields, producing methane (biogas) that is released into the atmosphere.  By trapping and burning the gas in this energy system that methane emission is halted.  Thus offsetting 20 times the CO2 that is released by burnin the gas.

Combustion of wood chips just releases CO2, no offset occurs.  It's not carbon neutral just because it's from biomass, this is a myth.

If only 5% of the combustion energy  used came from biogas it would offset all the rest of the CO2 produced from combustion energy.  

This is why I keep harping on the plan to backup renewable (solar, wind, water, plugin hybrids)  power systems with natural gas/biogas, with 5% biogas (from the waste stream) in the mixture.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Combustion and biodigestion

Hehey, "godknowswhat"?  The stinky component is manure or other high nitrogen waste, one part manure to 30 parts wood chips, straw, or other waste cellulose, that is the carbon.  At that nitrogen/carbon ratio, biogas is produced.

The manure would combine with carbon in the environment if it were allowed to run off or put directly on fields, producing methane (biogas) that is released into the atmosphere.  By trapping and burning the gas in this energy system that methane emission is halted.  Thus offsetting 20 times the CO2 that is released by burnin the gas.

Combustion of wood chips just releases CO2, no offset occurs.  It's not carbon neutral just because it's from biomass, this is a myth.

If only 5% of the combustion energy  used came from biogas it would offset all the rest of the CO2 produced from combustion energy.  

This is why I keep harping on the plan to backup renewable (solar, wind, water, plugin hybrids)  power systems with natural gas/biogas, with 5% biogas (from the waste stream) in the mixture.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Comment #6 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:59:12 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/6 Oh yeah

I forgot the organic fertilizer.  The stuff left over after the biodiogestion in organic fertilizer/soil ammendment.  By replacing ammonia fertilizer it prevents the release of nitrous oxide (296x the GHG effect of cO2) and the use of natural gas to make the ammonia fertiltzer.

The GHG effect prevented is equal to 2/3 of the CO2 uptake of the crop fertilized.  

Farms scattered all over the US are using biodigestion, it has around an 8 to 10 year payback at current electric rates, with the biogas turned into kwh sold onto the grid with ICE generation.

Solid oxide fuel cell/turbine generation reduces the payback by tripling the efficiency.  likewise economy of scalwe by combining manure from 10 to 100 farms instead of manure and biomass from only one farm.  

Furthermore, if government subsidized this to the tune of 5 to 10 cents per kwh, it could revive the small farm economy.  Through the energy sold and subsidized and chemical fertilizer costs defrayed.

We the people would get clean renewable backup for a renewable/conservation energy revolution and a huge reduction in GHG.  

This process could offset all the CO2 produced by a renewable/conservation energy economy, relying mainly on wind, solar, water, plugin hybrids, renewable electric mass transportation, ground source heat pump heating/cooling, and natural gas as the ultimate emergency backup fossil fuel component.

And of course all this would fight inflation with lower energy costs and it would revive the economy with a manufacturing stimulus, powered by increased productivity and efficiency.  With oil and coal and nuclear eventually phased out over 20 years or so.

Great article DR, as usual!  It was well worth the trip.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Oh yeah

I forgot the organic fertilizer.  The stuff left over after the biodiogestion in organic fertilizer/soil ammendment.  By replacing ammonia fertilizer it prevents the release of nitrous oxide (296x the GHG effect of cO2) and the use of natural gas to make the ammonia fertiltzer.

The GHG effect prevented is equal to 2/3 of the CO2 uptake of the crop fertilized.  

Farms scattered all over the US are using biodigestion, it has around an 8 to 10 year payback at current electric rates, with the biogas turned into kwh sold onto the grid with ICE generation.

Solid oxide fuel cell/turbine generation reduces the payback by tripling the efficiency.  likewise economy of scalwe by combining manure from 10 to 100 farms instead of manure and biomass from only one farm.  

Furthermore, if government subsidized this to the tune of 5 to 10 cents per kwh, it could revive the small farm economy.  Through the energy sold and subsidized and chemical fertilizer costs defrayed.

We the people would get clean renewable backup for a renewable/conservation energy revolution and a huge reduction in GHG.  

This process could offset all the CO2 produced by a renewable/conservation energy economy, relying mainly on wind, solar, water, plugin hybrids, renewable electric mass transportation, ground source heat pump heating/cooling, and natural gas as the ultimate emergency backup fossil fuel component.

And of course all this would fight inflation with lower energy costs and it would revive the economy with a manufacturing stimulus, powered by increased productivity and efficiency.  With oil and coal and nuclear eventually phased out over 20 years or so.

Great article DR, as usual!  It was well worth the trip.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Comment #7 by GreyFlcn http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:31:00 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/7 Ah Good

Biodigestion
Using the leftovers as fertilizer
Cogen to make bioheat pellets adds a nice touch too.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see that this is one of the few caveats I have in my general antipathy towards biofuels.

(As long as they aren't going out of their way to harvest wood at a high rate)

-David Ahlport



]]> Ah Good

Biodigestion
Using the leftovers as fertilizer
Cogen to make bioheat pellets adds a nice touch too.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see that this is one of the few caveats I have in my general antipathy towards biofuels.

(As long as they aren't going out of their way to harvest wood at a high rate)

-David Ahlport



]]> Comment #8 by acschwim http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:35:01 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/8 Forestry Byproducts

In response to the comment about the source of the wood biomass: Austria is 47% forested, and only two thirds of the timber that regrows in its forests every year is currently used.

While I'll agree that forest industry wastes are the way to go, given the circumstances, if the materials used in the project cited in the article weren't wastes, it doesn't seem too detrimental in this case. In other situations, alternatives should be considered.  

Source:
http://www.biobasednews.com/node/15047
"Biomass Heat and Electricity Plants on the Rise in Europe"

]]> Forestry Byproducts

In response to the comment about the source of the wood biomass: Austria is 47% forested, and only two thirds of the timber that regrows in its forests every year is currently used.

While I'll agree that forest industry wastes are the way to go, given the circumstances, if the materials used in the project cited in the article weren't wastes, it doesn't seem too detrimental in this case. In other situations, alternatives should be considered.  

Source:
http://www.biobasednews.com/node/15047
"Biomass Heat and Electricity Plants on the Rise in Europe"

]]> Comment #9 by amazingdrx http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:43:58 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/9 Beter use

A better use for wood waste than burning is as a substitute for lumber and paper pulp from trees.  Then as biomass for biodigestion, and last for combustion.

Home heat should not be derived from combustion, it should come from ground source heat pumps.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Beter use

A better use for wood waste than burning is as a substitute for lumber and paper pulp from trees.  Then as biomass for biodigestion, and last for combustion.

Home heat should not be derived from combustion, it should come from ground source heat pumps.  

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

]]> Comment #10 by bglahn http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Thu, 17 Jul 2008 02:51:29 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/10 cost and diffusion of biomass in Upper Austria

Millstone et al,
The cost of the district biomass heating facilty was about €1.2 million on the initial investment, and generally speaking, you can expect a subsidy from the federal government of up to 30% of the investment costs. Once the initial investment is made, the farmers are on their own.

With the biogas CHP plant, I don't know the initial investment cost, but the subsidies are the same. There is also a feed-in-tariff for the electricity produced, which i believe is guaranteed at €0.14 over 12 years. Don't quote me on that.

The name of the town where the municipal office building and home pellet sytsem was located is Nußdorf am Attersee, which is more or less a completely typical town in Upper Austria, although perhaps somewhat more well to do since it is next to one of the most beautiful lakes in the country.

The subsidies are the same on the home installation as well, 30% of the installation cost, and the installation companies will often pair up with pellet producers and offer reduced rates on fuel if you sign a long term delivery contract.

Here's a brief overview of biomass diffusion in Upper Austria:

14 % of total energy consumption
> 30,000 biomass heating installations
250 district heating plants
30 % of the municipalities mainly use biomass for heating  

They are ahead of the rest of the country in this area, and if you want more facts and figures check this link: http://www.salzburgseminar.org/mediafiles/PRES1141.pdf





]]> cost and diffusion of biomass in Upper Austria

Millstone et al,
The cost of the district biomass heating facilty was about €1.2 million on the initial investment, and generally speaking, you can expect a subsidy from the federal government of up to 30% of the investment costs. Once the initial investment is made, the farmers are on their own.

With the biogas CHP plant, I don't know the initial investment cost, but the subsidies are the same. There is also a feed-in-tariff for the electricity produced, which i believe is guaranteed at €0.14 over 12 years. Don't quote me on that.

The name of the town where the municipal office building and home pellet sytsem was located is Nußdorf am Attersee, which is more or less a completely typical town in Upper Austria, although perhaps somewhat more well to do since it is next to one of the most beautiful lakes in the country.

The subsidies are the same on the home installation as well, 30% of the installation cost, and the installation companies will often pair up with pellet producers and offer reduced rates on fuel if you sign a long term delivery contract.

Here's a brief overview of biomass diffusion in Upper Austria:

14 % of total energy consumption
> 30,000 biomass heating installations
250 district heating plants
30 % of the municipalities mainly use biomass for heating  

They are ahead of the rest of the country in this area, and if you want more facts and figures check this link: http://www.salzburgseminar.org/mediafiles/PRES1141.pdf





]]> Comment #11 by Biodiversivist http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:50:25 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/11 Got a brother-in-law with a wood pellet stove

He quit using it because the cost of pellets has gotten so high and the effort required to drive to a supplier and hump heavy bags got old.

I am familiar with efforts in Germany and Canada to promote burning dried corn instead of wood pellets back when corn was dirt cheap. Certainly, using biomass for home heat makes far more sense than throwing away so much energy converting it to liquids for transport. And of course, using local sources makes it much more feasible.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Got a brother-in-law with a wood pellet stove

He quit using it because the cost of pellets has gotten so high and the effort required to drive to a supplier and hump heavy bags got old.

I am familiar with efforts in Germany and Canada to promote burning dried corn instead of wood pellets back when corn was dirt cheap. Certainly, using biomass for home heat makes far more sense than throwing away so much energy converting it to liquids for transport. And of course, using local sources makes it much more feasible.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

]]> Comment #12 by biggav http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:46:37 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/12 Thanks

Nice article Dave - sounds like a great trip.

Did you see any of these strange hydro devices ?

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/06/gravitational_vor ...

Those Austrians seem to have the knack for low impact energy technology - guess its to be expected in Schauberger territory.

]]> Thanks

Nice article Dave - sounds like a great trip.

Did you see any of these strange hydro devices ?

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/06/gravitational_vor ...

Those Austrians seem to have the knack for low impact energy technology - guess its to be expected in Schauberger territory.

]]> Comment #13 by Backcut http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/ Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:32:21 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/biomass-in-austria-an-adventure-in-pictures/13 Unfortunately...

it's almost a crime to cut a live tree in America (tree murderers). It's even "forest destruction" if you want to cut dead trees. It's also "forest renewal" when a wildfire consumes 80,000 acres of ecosystem in 3 days.

Orwellian, ya say?!?

Scenic pics at http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com

]]> Unfortunately...

it's almost a crime to cut a live tree in America (tree murderers). It's even "forest destruction" if you want to cut dead trees. It's also "forest renewal" when a wildfire consumes 80,000 acres of ecosystem in 3 days.

Orwellian, ya say?!?

Scenic pics at http://Lhfotoware.blogspot.com

]]>