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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Biodiesel rage]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 03:00:22 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>Well -  the part<p>Well the part that scares the hell out of me is a Seattle company called Imperium Renewables and their insistance on using Palm Oil from Malaysia.<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/biofuel" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/biofuel<p>
Considering theres 3 major biodiesel companies in Seattle, I wonder how much of this is astroturfing.</p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Well -  the part<p>Well the part that scares the hell out of me is a Seattle company called Imperium Renewables and their insistance on using Palm Oil from Malaysia.<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/biofuel" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/biofuel<p>
Considering theres 3 major biodiesel companies in Seattle, I wonder how much of this is astroturfing.</p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by Ron Steenblik</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 03:02:26 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Great post, BioD</strong></p><p>And thank you for the link to the Biodiesel Reality Check Site.</p><p>
Importing foreign vegetable oil does reduce the nation's dependency on foreign petroleum oil -- through diversification of sources -- though that is not enough of a reason to subsidize biodiesel to the tune of $1.00/gallon (actually, $1.10 per gallon, since most plants also qualify for the $0.10/gallon Small Biodiesel Producer Credit as well).</p><p>
Moreover, as we have both emphasized, there is always the problem of spacial and temporal displacement, even if the oil consumed to make biodiesel is itself produced sustainably.</p>
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				<p><strong>Great post, BioD</strong></p><p>And thank you for the link to the Biodiesel Reality Check Site.</p><p>
Importing foreign vegetable oil does reduce the nation's dependency on foreign petroleum oil -- through diversification of sources -- though that is not enough of a reason to subsidize biodiesel to the tune of $1.00/gallon (actually, $1.10 per gallon, since most plants also qualify for the $0.10/gallon Small Biodiesel Producer Credit as well).</p><p>
Moreover, as we have both emphasized, there is always the problem of spacial and temporal displacement, even if the oil consumed to make biodiesel is itself produced sustainably.</p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 03:19:28 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>Nice link Grey Falcon<p>Let me put it out in the open.<p>
<p>
Good point Ron<p>
However, what if, in the future we are importing all the biofuel South America can grow and become dependent on it as we have with Middle Eastern oil. Then one day, we elect an idiot for a president and he goes to war with their nearest neighbor in an unprecedented, preemptive attack, all based on mistaken information? : )

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Nice link Grey Falcon<p>Let me put it out in the open.<p>
<p>
Good point Ron<p>
However, what if, in the future we are importing all the biofuel South America can grow and become dependent on it as we have with Middle Eastern oil. Then one day, we elect an idiot for a president and he goes to war with their nearest neighbor in an unprecedented, preemptive attack, all based on mistaken information? : )

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 04:18:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Well<p>That also raises the question of:<br>
Exactly how much can South America, in particular Brazil, grow?<p>
For instance,<br>
22% effecient Solar yields 100x more usable energy per-unit-area than Sugar Cane.<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/sugarsolar" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/sugarsolar<p>
And if we're considering even the area it would take to plant cellulosic switchgrass.<br>
The chart here is something like 1/6th the US landmass area.<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol3" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol3<p>
And even if we did do Cellulosic Ethanol instead of gasoline, it might even be worse on how "Clean" the fuel is if we did E85 ethanol<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol2" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol2<p>
_<p>
Note this is more Ethanol, and less BioDiesel.<br>
Although technically when you make it use a Fischer Trophe process you can spit out whatever you want, so it all kinda works.<p>
Now if Cellulosic Ethanol, once touted for it's 85% reduction in CO2 is pegged down to only a mere 4% reduction.<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol2" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol2<p>
What does that mean on how far down BioDiesel will be knocked?<p>
_<p>
Lastly when it comes to BioDiesel<br>
Algae.<br>
This is perhaps the only way BioDiesel could ever be considered sustainable/green.<br>
However<p>


Growing it in the ocean is not reliable. (And likely ecologically hazardous)<br>
Growing it on land requires massive ammounts of CO2 and massive ammounts of Methanol for transesterification.<br>
The CO2 would primarily come from fossil carbon power plants. &nbsp;(Making it reliant on fossil fuels for it's growth)<br>
The Methanol would primarily come from fossil carbon sources like Natural Gas. (Currently where virtually all methanol comes from)<p>


Now TECHNICALLY, Methanol production could provide both the CO2 needed via fermentation, and the Methanol. &nbsp;But that seems unlikely.<p>
TECHNICALLY again, they could skip the Methanol entirely and just gasify it, and then turn it into a liquid directly.<p>
But when we start playing all these TECHNICALLY games, the raw answer comes down to.<p>
Even if we were going to use biomass for anything.<br>
THE most effecient way to use it is by turning it into a solid. &nbsp;And then either burning it to make electricity, or burying it as a soil amendment + semi-sequestration.<p>
The second most effecient way to use biomass is to turn it into natural gas, and then burning it to make electricity.<p>
_<p>
Lastly, it can be turned into a liquid. &nbsp;And then burned in an engine.<br>
But perhaps the most effecient way to use this fuel EVEN when in a liquid form, is in a Diesel Generator, and not a Diesel Engine.<p>
We're throwing away about 3/4ths the original biomass energy just to turn it into a liquid.<br>
62% loss turning it into biodiesel<br>
10% loss in transportation<p>
And then we're throwing away more than 1/2 diesel energy by burning it in a diesel engine, instead of an diesel generator.<br>
57% loss comparing diesel engine, versus diesel generator<p>
_<p>
So even if we are going to go diesel, why in our right minds would we waste it a diesel engine?</p></p></br></p></br></br></p></br></p></p></p></br></p></p></p></p></br></br></br></p></br></br></br></p></p></p></a></br></p></br></p></p></a></br></p></a></br></br></p></a></br></br></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Well<p>That also raises the question of:<br>
Exactly how much can South America, in particular Brazil, grow?<p>
For instance,<br>
22% effecient Solar yields 100x more usable energy per-unit-area than Sugar Cane.<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/sugarsolar" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/sugarsolar<p>
And if we're considering even the area it would take to plant cellulosic switchgrass.<br>
The chart here is something like 1/6th the US landmass area.<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol3" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol3<p>
And even if we did do Cellulosic Ethanol instead of gasoline, it might even be worse on how "Clean" the fuel is if we did E85 ethanol<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol2" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol2<p>
_<p>
Note this is more Ethanol, and less BioDiesel.<br>
Although technically when you make it use a Fischer Trophe process you can spit out whatever you want, so it all kinda works.<p>
Now if Cellulosic Ethanol, once touted for it's 85% reduction in CO2 is pegged down to only a mere 4% reduction.<br>
<a href="http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol2" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">http://greyfalcon.net/ethanol2<p>
What does that mean on how far down BioDiesel will be knocked?<p>
_<p>
Lastly when it comes to BioDiesel<br>
Algae.<br>
This is perhaps the only way BioDiesel could ever be considered sustainable/green.<br>
However<p>


Growing it in the ocean is not reliable. (And likely ecologically hazardous)<br>
Growing it on land requires massive ammounts of CO2 and massive ammounts of Methanol for transesterification.<br>
The CO2 would primarily come from fossil carbon power plants. &nbsp;(Making it reliant on fossil fuels for it's growth)<br>
The Methanol would primarily come from fossil carbon sources like Natural Gas. (Currently where virtually all methanol comes from)<p>


Now TECHNICALLY, Methanol production could provide both the CO2 needed via fermentation, and the Methanol. &nbsp;But that seems unlikely.<p>
TECHNICALLY again, they could skip the Methanol entirely and just gasify it, and then turn it into a liquid directly.<p>
But when we start playing all these TECHNICALLY games, the raw answer comes down to.<p>
Even if we were going to use biomass for anything.<br>
THE most effecient way to use it is by turning it into a solid. &nbsp;And then either burning it to make electricity, or burying it as a soil amendment + semi-sequestration.<p>
The second most effecient way to use biomass is to turn it into natural gas, and then burning it to make electricity.<p>
_<p>
Lastly, it can be turned into a liquid. &nbsp;And then burned in an engine.<br>
But perhaps the most effecient way to use this fuel EVEN when in a liquid form, is in a Diesel Generator, and not a Diesel Engine.<p>
We're throwing away about 3/4ths the original biomass energy just to turn it into a liquid.<br>
62% loss turning it into biodiesel<br>
10% loss in transportation<p>
And then we're throwing away more than 1/2 diesel energy by burning it in a diesel engine, instead of an diesel generator.<br>
57% loss comparing diesel engine, versus diesel generator<p>
_<p>
So even if we are going to go diesel, why in our right minds would we waste it a diesel engine?</p></p></br></p></br></br></p></br></p></p></p></br></p></p></p></p></br></br></br></p></br></br></br></p></p></p></a></br></p></br></p></p></a></br></p></a></br></br></p></a></br></br></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Ron Steenblik</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 05:41:09 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Who would be dependent on whom?</strong></p><p>BioD, in answer to your question:</p><p>
[W]hat if, in the future we are importing all the biofuel South America can grow and become dependent on it as we have with Middle Eastern oil?</p><p>
First of all, it ain't going to happen. Pressure on supplies have already driven prices for vegetable oils upwards (in dollar terms: soybean oil by 1/3 over the last year, palm oil by almost 50% since 2005), which makes the manufacturing of biodiesel from virgin oils less profitable. It is never going to make a big dent in U.S. transport fuel supplies. The EU, which uses much more diesel than the USA for transport, will have to struggle to meet its own biodiesel targets.</p><p>
In any case, vegetable oils, while they differ in the properties they contribute to biodiesel, are fungible. If you were to express your worries about being too dependent on Latin American plant oils to a development economist from that continent they would burst out in a guffaw. The United States has long been highly dependent on coffee imported from Latin America (and imagine the consequences of a disruption in THAT supply). The price consumers pay is certainly affected by the vagaries of the weather and of crop yields, but when was the last time you recall a producer boycott of sales of coffee to the USA?</p><p>
Production of crops involves many more people than production of petroleum. For that reason alone, exporters of agricultural commodities are not likely to withhold supplies from the market for long.</p>
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				<p><strong>Who would be dependent on whom?</strong></p><p>BioD, in answer to your question:</p><p>
[W]hat if, in the future we are importing all the biofuel South America can grow and become dependent on it as we have with Middle Eastern oil?</p><p>
First of all, it ain't going to happen. Pressure on supplies have already driven prices for vegetable oils upwards (in dollar terms: soybean oil by 1/3 over the last year, palm oil by almost 50% since 2005), which makes the manufacturing of biodiesel from virgin oils less profitable. It is never going to make a big dent in U.S. transport fuel supplies. The EU, which uses much more diesel than the USA for transport, will have to struggle to meet its own biodiesel targets.</p><p>
In any case, vegetable oils, while they differ in the properties they contribute to biodiesel, are fungible. If you were to express your worries about being too dependent on Latin American plant oils to a development economist from that continent they would burst out in a guffaw. The United States has long been highly dependent on coffee imported from Latin America (and imagine the consequences of a disruption in THAT supply). The price consumers pay is certainly affected by the vagaries of the weather and of crop yields, but when was the last time you recall a producer boycott of sales of coffee to the USA?</p><p>
Production of crops involves many more people than production of petroleum. For that reason alone, exporters of agricultural commodities are not likely to withhold supplies from the market for long.</p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by wiscidea</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 07:28:23 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>biodiesel from South America or elsewhere</strong></p><p>When U.S. economists look at South America, Southeast Asia, or Africa as a potential source of biodiesel -- or other biofuel -- and calculate whether there is enough to ensure the U.S. economy continues growing, do they subtract the fuel those nations will be consuming to run their own economies?</p><p>
It seems to me that once petroleum is depeleted to an essentially useless level, every nation will be working very hard just to meet its own needs... no surplus for export. And if you can't grow your own biofuel or burn coal you are screwed.

<p>Forward!</p></p>
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				<p><strong>biodiesel from South America or elsewhere</strong></p><p>When U.S. economists look at South America, Southeast Asia, or Africa as a potential source of biodiesel -- or other biofuel -- and calculate whether there is enough to ensure the U.S. economy continues growing, do they subtract the fuel those nations will be consuming to run their own economies?</p><p>
It seems to me that once petroleum is depeleted to an essentially useless level, every nation will be working very hard just to meet its own needs... no surplus for export. And if you can't grow your own biofuel or burn coal you are screwed.

<p>Forward!</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 00:03:24 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Audubon hearts biodiesel<p>The current issue of Audubon magazine advocated that that folks should buy diesel cars for biodiesel consumption instead of hybrid cars. It didn't get into detail on how they arrived at that conclusion, but I found that endorsement interesting. No conversation on the source of the fuel, for one, but also that they found the end result to be more benign. 

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Audubon hearts biodiesel<p>The current issue of Audubon magazine advocated that that folks should buy diesel cars for biodiesel consumption instead of hybrid cars. It didn't get into detail on how they arrived at that conclusion, but I found that endorsement interesting. No conversation on the source of the fuel, for one, but also that they found the end result to be more benign. 

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 02:03:37 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Got a link, Erik?<p>I did a quick google search and found this, <a href="http://audubonmagazine.org/greenguru/greenguru0703.html" rel="nofollow">here:<p>
<b>If I have no other choice but to replace my aging and ailing car, which is the most environmental choice: hybrid or biodiesel?<br>
Suzanne Wolfe, Atlanta, GA?<p>
As they say in real estate, it's all about location, location, location. If you take short trips around town and are lucky enough to have access to a local supplier of biodiesel--fuel for diesel engines that is made from either waste vegetable oil (think French fry vats) or processed from renewable crops like soybeans--this is the choice. It will produce the lowest carbon dioxide emissions and help improve air quality the most. Most biodiesel stations are in the Midwest and New England, but new pumps are being added at a rate of one a day. (Find out if you have a local supplier at biodiesel.org.) If you're handy and happen to have a few spare 50-gallon drums lying around, it's not all that difficult to make your own biodiesel (look online for how-to books, blogs, and regional co-ops). Critics of biodiesel charge that harmful pesticides and fertilizers are used to grow soybeans, which currently account for 90 percent of the fuel's fodder, and that because soybeans use so much land and water, this is an inefficient way to solve our energy woes. Researchers are looking into more efficient biodiesel fuels, like switchgrass, palms, and even algae.<p>
If you don't live near a biodiesel pumping station and are unwilling to try a home science experiment, a hybrid vehicle--with an engine that runs on a combination of gasoline and a self-recharging electric battery--is a very good way to reduce emissions, save on fuel costs, and cut down on air pollution. Carpooling, public transportation, walking, and biking are also good for the air, your wallet, and your health.<p>
Most envrionmental groups remain split on the issue of agrofuels. I suspect that had they been called agrofuels from the start instead of biofuels this wouldn't be the case. Some people can't get past the allure of the label.<p>
Ron,<p>
I agree, trade interdependency does help to keep groups of people from going to war against each other. Although, this doesn't always work. Even though Iraq had plenty of oil to trade, they still got invaded. Suggesting that you need a combination of democracy and trade, although in this case it was the democracy that did the invading. There are no guarantees. &nbsp;

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></br></b></p></a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Got a link, Erik?<p>I did a quick google search and found this, <a href="http://audubonmagazine.org/greenguru/greenguru0703.html" rel="nofollow">here:<p>
<b>If I have no other choice but to replace my aging and ailing car, which is the most environmental choice: hybrid or biodiesel?<br>
Suzanne Wolfe, Atlanta, GA?<p>
As they say in real estate, it's all about location, location, location. If you take short trips around town and are lucky enough to have access to a local supplier of biodiesel--fuel for diesel engines that is made from either waste vegetable oil (think French fry vats) or processed from renewable crops like soybeans--this is the choice. It will produce the lowest carbon dioxide emissions and help improve air quality the most. Most biodiesel stations are in the Midwest and New England, but new pumps are being added at a rate of one a day. (Find out if you have a local supplier at biodiesel.org.) If you're handy and happen to have a few spare 50-gallon drums lying around, it's not all that difficult to make your own biodiesel (look online for how-to books, blogs, and regional co-ops). Critics of biodiesel charge that harmful pesticides and fertilizers are used to grow soybeans, which currently account for 90 percent of the fuel's fodder, and that because soybeans use so much land and water, this is an inefficient way to solve our energy woes. Researchers are looking into more efficient biodiesel fuels, like switchgrass, palms, and even algae.<p>
If you don't live near a biodiesel pumping station and are unwilling to try a home science experiment, a hybrid vehicle--with an engine that runs on a combination of gasoline and a self-recharging electric battery--is a very good way to reduce emissions, save on fuel costs, and cut down on air pollution. Carpooling, public transportation, walking, and biking are also good for the air, your wallet, and your health.<p>
Most envrionmental groups remain split on the issue of agrofuels. I suspect that had they been called agrofuels from the start instead of biofuels this wouldn't be the case. Some people can't get past the allure of the label.<p>
Ron,<p>
I agree, trade interdependency does help to keep groups of people from going to war against each other. Although, this doesn't always work. Even though Iraq had plenty of oil to trade, they still got invaded. Suggesting that you need a combination of democracy and trade, although in this case it was the democracy that did the invading. There are no guarantees. &nbsp;

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></p></p></p></p></br></b></p></a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 02:23:11 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Serial plugin hybrid</strong></p><p>That will shift this whole debate. &nbsp;Paralell hybrids like the toyota and honda models do not save signifigantly greater &nbsp;amounts of fuel or gHGs compared to very efficient diesel vehicles.</p><p>
The Audobon society missed this nuance as do most organizations and individuals.</p><p>
Plugin hybrids like the gM volt will run on a small fraction of the fuel and produce a small fraction of the gHGs of either biodiesel or regular hybrids.</p><p>
The best approach now is to do all we can to lobby the pols to back GMs play with government vehicle fleet orders. &nbsp;Put that pie-in-the-sky 2050 goal-playing into reality.</p><p>
Order up some gM Volts for government use and boost uS jobs along with it. &nbsp;That's vote getting policy.</p><p>
As for fuel farming biodiesel? &nbsp;Is everyone backing biodiesel insane? &nbsp;Have they never heard of rainforests slashed and burned to produce biodiesel? &nbsp;Evidently not.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Serial plugin hybrid</strong></p><p>That will shift this whole debate. &nbsp;Paralell hybrids like the toyota and honda models do not save signifigantly greater &nbsp;amounts of fuel or gHGs compared to very efficient diesel vehicles.</p><p>
The Audobon society missed this nuance as do most organizations and individuals.</p><p>
Plugin hybrids like the gM volt will run on a small fraction of the fuel and produce a small fraction of the gHGs of either biodiesel or regular hybrids.</p><p>
The best approach now is to do all we can to lobby the pols to back GMs play with government vehicle fleet orders. &nbsp;Put that pie-in-the-sky 2050 goal-playing into reality.</p><p>
Order up some gM Volts for government use and boost uS jobs along with it. &nbsp;That's vote getting policy.</p><p>
As for fuel farming biodiesel? &nbsp;Is everyone backing biodiesel insane? &nbsp;Have they never heard of rainforests slashed and burned to produce biodiesel? &nbsp;Evidently not.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 05:24:46 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>RE: link<p>BioD: nope, but that one will do.<p>
Amazing Doc: not all biodiesel is evil: small scale grassroots projects that make fuel from waste veggie oil exist and are a good thing to promote. Every city and town can make fuel this way.

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>RE: link<p>BioD: nope, but that one will do.<p>
Amazing Doc: not all biodiesel is evil: small scale grassroots projects that make fuel from waste veggie oil exist and are a good thing to promote. Every city and town can make fuel this way.

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 05:43:40 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>re: Erik Hoffner<p>not all biodiesel is evil: small scale grassroots projects that make fuel from waste veggie oil exist and are a good thing to promote. Every city and town can make fuel this way.<p>
Yeah, but that ammount is so tiny that it doesn't make much sense to even consider it.<br>
<a href="http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/06/worse-than-fossil-fuel/" rel="nofollow">http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/06/worse-than-fos ...<p>
And even those small grassroots places tend to get their methanol from natural gas (As does pretty much everyone)<br>
<a href="http://www.cecarf.org/Programs/Fuels/Fuelfacts/Alternativefuels.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cecarf.org/Programs/Fuels/Fuelfacts/Alternativ ...<p>
And even if you were going to use it, it would make far more sense to burn it as straight vegetable oil in a high temperature turbine.<br>
<a href="http://www.insidegreentech.com/node/376" rel="nofollow">http://www.insidegreentech.com/node/376<p>
And even if were going to turn it into a diesel fuel. &nbsp;We'd still be far better off burning it in a generator rather than an engine.<br>
<a href="http://www.greyfalcon.net/diesel.png" rel="nofollow">http://www.greyfalcon.net/diesel.png</a></br></p></a></br></p></a></br></p></a></br></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>re: Erik Hoffner<p>not all biodiesel is evil: small scale grassroots projects that make fuel from waste veggie oil exist and are a good thing to promote. Every city and town can make fuel this way.<p>
Yeah, but that ammount is so tiny that it doesn't make much sense to even consider it.<br>
<a href="http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/06/worse-than-fossil-fuel/" rel="nofollow">http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/06/worse-than-fos ...<p>
And even those small grassroots places tend to get their methanol from natural gas (As does pretty much everyone)<br>
<a href="http://www.cecarf.org/Programs/Fuels/Fuelfacts/Alternativefuels.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cecarf.org/Programs/Fuels/Fuelfacts/Alternativ ...<p>
And even if you were going to use it, it would make far more sense to burn it as straight vegetable oil in a high temperature turbine.<br>
<a href="http://www.insidegreentech.com/node/376" rel="nofollow">http://www.insidegreentech.com/node/376<p>
And even if were going to turn it into a diesel fuel. &nbsp;We'd still be far better off burning it in a generator rather than an engine.<br>
<a href="http://www.greyfalcon.net/diesel.png" rel="nofollow">http://www.greyfalcon.net/diesel.png</a></br></p></a></br></p></a></br></p></a></br></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 05:50:46 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>And oh yeah<p>Incase you didn't know, <br>
Methanol and KOH Salt is required to process biodiesel.<br>
<a href="http://www.biodiesel.com/Transesterification.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.biodiesel.com/Transesterification.htm</a></br></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>And oh yeah<p>Incase you didn't know, <br>
Methanol and KOH Salt is required to process biodiesel.<br>
<a href="http://www.biodiesel.com/Transesterification.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.biodiesel.com/Transesterification.htm</a></br></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by Erik Hoffner</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 06:12:31 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>thanks<p>Yes, I'm aware of these facts. However, there is and will be a market for biodiesel made this way for vehicles. Not everyone will convert their diesel cars to run on veggie oil. a/the expense b/the perceived hassle of straight oil vehicles. <p>
None of this would be an issue if hybrid cars weren't so expensive. Honestly, it's insane. Even a used 5 year old Prius &nbsp;goes for the price of a new Corolla in western Mass. That's not in my budget, but if it were, I'd possibly go that route instead of driving a used Jetta.<p>
As for the statement that there is not enough oil to even bother, well, it all depends on your sense of scale. And your sense of what a bother is.<p>
And lots of biodiesel is being used in home heating oil blends already, and will be. It ain't just cars.

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>thanks<p>Yes, I'm aware of these facts. However, there is and will be a market for biodiesel made this way for vehicles. Not everyone will convert their diesel cars to run on veggie oil. a/the expense b/the perceived hassle of straight oil vehicles. <p>
None of this would be an issue if hybrid cars weren't so expensive. Honestly, it's insane. Even a used 5 year old Prius &nbsp;goes for the price of a new Corolla in western Mass. That's not in my budget, but if it were, I'd possibly go that route instead of driving a used Jetta.<p>
As for the statement that there is not enough oil to even bother, well, it all depends on your sense of scale. And your sense of what a bother is.<p>
And lots of biodiesel is being used in home heating oil blends already, and will be. It ain't just cars.

<p><a href="http://www.orionsociety.org/ogn" rel="nofollow">The Orion Grassroots Network: 1000+ grassroots groups working for conservation &amp; more
</a></p></p></p></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 07:05:08 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/14</guid>
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				<p><strong>Well yeah</strong></p><p>But if cost is really such a big concern for ya you could just as easily buy a smaller/lightweight car which is inherently effecient.</p><p>
Ford Focus or Scion xA/xB for instance.</p>
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				<p><strong>Well yeah</strong></p><p>But if cost is really such a big concern for ya you could just as easily buy a smaller/lightweight car which is inherently effecient.</p><p>
Ford Focus or Scion xA/xB for instance.</p>
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            <title>Comment #15 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 09:01:06 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/15</guid>
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				<p><strong>Well<p>Well, here's a comparison of a Diesel Jetta versus a Prius in CO2 emissions.<br>
<a href="http://www.greyfalcon.net/electriccars2.png" rel="nofollow">http://www.greyfalcon.net/electriccars2.png<p>
In general a turbo diesel is about equivalent to a Prius over long range<br>
And a Prius is better short range (due to the regenerative braking)<p>
Overall, both about 45 mpg in realworld mileage.<p>
_<p>
Catch is the NEXT Prius makes you wonder why you would even considering going diesel. (94 mpg)<br>
<a href="http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/next_generation.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/next_generation.p ...<p>
And a plugin hybrid Prius is just dramatic. (150mpg -&gt; 500mpg)<br>
<a href="http://www.greyfalcon.net/plugins" rel="nofollow">http://www.greyfalcon.net/plugins</a></br></p></a></br></p></p></p></br></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Well<p>Well, here's a comparison of a Diesel Jetta versus a Prius in CO2 emissions.<br>
<a href="http://www.greyfalcon.net/electriccars2.png" rel="nofollow">http://www.greyfalcon.net/electriccars2.png<p>
In general a turbo diesel is about equivalent to a Prius over long range<br>
And a Prius is better short range (due to the regenerative braking)<p>
Overall, both about 45 mpg in realworld mileage.<p>
_<p>
Catch is the NEXT Prius makes you wonder why you would even considering going diesel. (94 mpg)<br>
<a href="http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/next_generation.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/next_generation.p ...<p>
And a plugin hybrid Prius is just dramatic. (150mpg -&gt; 500mpg)<br>
<a href="http://www.greyfalcon.net/plugins" rel="nofollow">http://www.greyfalcon.net/plugins</a></br></p></a></br></p></p></p></br></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #16 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 09:55:20 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/16</guid>
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				<p><strong>Agreed Eric</strong></p><p>I want to power the backup generator for my future plugin serial hybrid with biodiesel from cooking grease. &nbsp;There is plenty of it around here.</p><p>
I would also like to make it from a solar collector algae system. &nbsp;And eventually switch from diesel/biogas backup generator to solid oxide fuel cell/microturbine backup generator.</p><p>
They run on biodiesel, biogas, gasoline, or diesel. &nbsp;At three times the ICE generator efficiency.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Agreed Eric</strong></p><p>I want to power the backup generator for my future plugin serial hybrid with biodiesel from cooking grease. &nbsp;There is plenty of it around here.</p><p>
I would also like to make it from a solar collector algae system. &nbsp;And eventually switch from diesel/biogas backup generator to solid oxide fuel cell/microturbine backup generator.</p><p>
They run on biodiesel, biogas, gasoline, or diesel. &nbsp;At three times the ICE generator efficiency.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #17 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/</link>
			<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 09:58:10 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/biodiesel-positive-feedback-loop/17</guid>
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				<p><strong>Obama at it again<p>Heh, another bill which tries to solve things using the magic of biofuels.....<br>
<a href="http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=48427" rel="nofollow">http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=48 ...<p>
A 5% reduction in carbon from fuels....<p>
Yeah, why even bother if it's gonna be that wimpy?</p></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Obama at it again<p>Heh, another bill which tries to solve things using the magic of biofuels.....<br>
<a href="http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=48427" rel="nofollow">http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=48 ...<p>
A 5% reduction in carbon from fuels....<p>
Yeah, why even bother if it's gonna be that wimpy?</p></p></a></br></p></strong></p>
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