<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for A follow-up]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by planetthoughts http://www.grist.org/article/beyond-carbon-taxes/ Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:11:32 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/beyond-carbon-taxes/1 Submit this to Congress

I would like to see these measures introduced to Congress, and debated and refined.  Why not shift the debate on the details to the level it should be at?  We should not be arguing about details of a cap and trade - that is "old school".  What is needed is a dramatic shift of focus and priorities, and a national strategy.

As others have noticed, despite what the current US government has said, our American way of life IS negotiable.  Either the facts as discovered will guide us to a suitable negotiated plan, or our way of life will disappear of its own weight in a more disastrous way.

David Alexander PlanetThoughts.org Love your Planet.

]]> Submit this to Congress

I would like to see these measures introduced to Congress, and debated and refined.  Why not shift the debate on the details to the level it should be at?  We should not be arguing about details of a cap and trade - that is "old school".  What is needed is a dramatic shift of focus and priorities, and a national strategy.

As others have noticed, despite what the current US government has said, our American way of life IS negotiable.  Either the facts as discovered will guide us to a suitable negotiated plan, or our way of life will disappear of its own weight in a more disastrous way.

David Alexander PlanetThoughts.org Love your Planet.

]]> Comment #2 by GreenEngineer http://www.grist.org/article/beyond-carbon-taxes/ Fri, 20 Apr 2007 06:01:36 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/beyond-carbon-taxes/2 solar cell costs

I think these are all good suggestions, with the possible exception of the giant solar cell plant.  I think that making that investment right now could be a really bad idea, for two reasons:

Solar is expensive, in large part, because of its reliance on very high embodied energy silicon materials.  It's not clear that economies of scale will get you the impact you want to see here, because you're still tied to fundamentally expensive and energy intensive process.

Right now, a wide variety of thin film technologies are poised to enter the market.  If any of these succeed, it should dramatically lower the costs of PV, and make the traditional polySi cells obsolete.  It would be a shame to invest that much money in a project that would very likely become obsolete before it even had a chance to serve its role as a sacrificial lamb.

]]> solar cell costs

I think these are all good suggestions, with the possible exception of the giant solar cell plant.  I think that making that investment right now could be a really bad idea, for two reasons:

Solar is expensive, in large part, because of its reliance on very high embodied energy silicon materials.  It's not clear that economies of scale will get you the impact you want to see here, because you're still tied to fundamentally expensive and energy intensive process.

Right now, a wide variety of thin film technologies are poised to enter the market.  If any of these succeed, it should dramatically lower the costs of PV, and make the traditional polySi cells obsolete.  It would be a shame to invest that much money in a project that would very likely become obsolete before it even had a chance to serve its role as a sacrificial lamb.

]]> Comment #3 by Gar Lipow http://www.grist.org/article/beyond-carbon-taxes/ Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:24:16 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/beyond-carbon-taxes/3 Green Engineer

A good point. But:

No law that the plant has to be a Silicon one. Just because there is a good chance we will end supporting a less than optimum plant, there is not reason not to do our best to support the best plant possible. Put the plant out for RFP, no specification of type, strong specs as to what results you want (cells and x price with features that allow x installation cost). Payment on completion of plant, passing of all tests, and trouble free operation for a month. So you still have tap the power of the market because you can only submit an RFP if you have can convince someone with the capital to back your proposal.

I would not count silicon out entirely. Silicon is expensive not because it is in short supply, but because silcon cells use ultrapure silicon. You have to process a lot of diry silicon to get a little clean silicon. We are starting to see reaction in the lab which can use much less pure silicon; we are also seeing other reactions which may lead to less expensive, less wasteful methods of purifying silicon.  

That being said, you may be right. This proposal in various forms has been around for decades. Maybe, albeit delayed by those decades, its time has passed and cheap solar cells are coming anyway--possibly via concentrating pv.

]]> Green Engineer

A good point. But:

No law that the plant has to be a Silicon one. Just because there is a good chance we will end supporting a less than optimum plant, there is not reason not to do our best to support the best plant possible. Put the plant out for RFP, no specification of type, strong specs as to what results you want (cells and x price with features that allow x installation cost). Payment on completion of plant, passing of all tests, and trouble free operation for a month. So you still have tap the power of the market because you can only submit an RFP if you have can convince someone with the capital to back your proposal.

I would not count silicon out entirely. Silicon is expensive not because it is in short supply, but because silcon cells use ultrapure silicon. You have to process a lot of diry silicon to get a little clean silicon. We are starting to see reaction in the lab which can use much less pure silicon; we are also seeing other reactions which may lead to less expensive, less wasteful methods of purifying silicon.  

That being said, you may be right. This proposal in various forms has been around for decades. Maybe, albeit delayed by those decades, its time has passed and cheap solar cells are coming anyway--possibly via concentrating pv.

]]> Comment #4 by GreyFlcn http://www.grist.org/article/beyond-carbon-taxes/ Fri, 20 Apr 2007 09:03:49 -0700 http://www.grist.org/article/beyond-carbon-taxes/4 Well from what I can tell

I dunno about concentrating PV.

Concentrating thermal solar (both Trough and Dish), and thinflim CIGS solar seem to be the "next big thing".

However after, the "next next big thing" in solar is likely to be quantum dots and titanium dioxide dyes.

Quantum dots aren't quite "concentrating pv" but they have a similar effect by allowing more than 1 electron to be created from 1 photon.  
(With as much as 7 electrons being created from UV light, although more likely the focus would be on 2 or 3 electrons using other more readily availible spectrums)

]]> Well from what I can tell

I dunno about concentrating PV.

Concentrating thermal solar (both Trough and Dish), and thinflim CIGS solar seem to be the "next big thing".

However after, the "next next big thing" in solar is likely to be quantum dots and titanium dioxide dyes.

Quantum dots aren't quite "concentrating pv" but they have a similar effect by allowing more than 1 electron to be created from 1 photon.  
(With as much as 7 electrons being created from UV light, although more likely the focus would be on 2 or 3 electrons using other more readily availible spectrums)

]]>