<![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for Everything you need to know about Berkeley’s innovative rooftop solar program]]> Grist Comment Feed en Comment #1 by ahmednewenergy http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/ Mon, 03 Nov 2008 02:49:10 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/1 the new MEME

RIGHT ON BERKELEY.  Increasingly, I think that this is an important MEME that needs to redefine how we look at residential solar -- comparing it to cell phone use, and the fact that nobody in their right mind would want to build the actual infrastructure that supports the network.  It's the same with soalr.  WE ONLY WANT THE BENEFITS (through service plans).

As my fascination for all things solar has increased in the past 18 months, another great source of news that I've come to love and trust is

http://www.greentechmedia.com/

as always  -- thanks for the good reporting

]]> the new MEME

RIGHT ON BERKELEY.  Increasingly, I think that this is an important MEME that needs to redefine how we look at residential solar -- comparing it to cell phone use, and the fact that nobody in their right mind would want to build the actual infrastructure that supports the network.  It's the same with soalr.  WE ONLY WANT THE BENEFITS (through service plans).

As my fascination for all things solar has increased in the past 18 months, another great source of news that I've come to love and trust is

http://www.greentechmedia.com/

as always  -- thanks for the good reporting

]]> Comment #2 by Delay And Deny http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/ Mon, 03 Nov 2008 04:46:38 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/2 Subprime Loans for Solar Panels


This is the same finagling that got us into the subprime problem.

Government will "help" put consumers and itself into debt by having them both buy 2008 grade solar panels.

But guess what...just like with real estate, prices will fall precipitously in the next years and decades to the point where someone can walk into Home Depot and buy a complete energy system for the price of a good hot water heater.

]]> Subprime Loans for Solar Panels


This is the same finagling that got us into the subprime problem.

Government will "help" put consumers and itself into debt by having them both buy 2008 grade solar panels.

But guess what...just like with real estate, prices will fall precipitously in the next years and decades to the point where someone can walk into Home Depot and buy a complete energy system for the price of a good hot water heater.

]]> Comment #3 by Pangolin http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/ Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:05:47 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/3 Unfortunately regressive.

For the very large percentage of residents of Berkeley that rent there is exactly zero direct benefit. I don't see why their landlords would take on higher tax bills in order to benefit tenants.

If the Green transition is going to be anything other than another brand like a Volvo in the driveway it needs to benefit the whole spectrum of the population.

Municipal financed solar power for the wealthy isn't exactly very green. Rework it and include some means of converting rental properties to solar power and it won't end up being another "socialism for the wealthy" issue.

Put the Carbon Back

]]> Unfortunately regressive.

For the very large percentage of residents of Berkeley that rent there is exactly zero direct benefit. I don't see why their landlords would take on higher tax bills in order to benefit tenants.

If the Green transition is going to be anything other than another brand like a Volvo in the driveway it needs to benefit the whole spectrum of the population.

Municipal financed solar power for the wealthy isn't exactly very green. Rework it and include some means of converting rental properties to solar power and it won't end up being another "socialism for the wealthy" issue.

Put the Carbon Back

]]> Comment #4 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/ Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:44:09 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/4 good point, Pangolin

As a former renter in Berkeley (long ago!) I appreciate the thought.  Helping renters is a big, big problem.  I don't think Berkeley's program is only for the wealthy, I think  a lot of middle-class people own their own homes there, but something definitely needs to be done for rental units -- don't know of any proposals for that, though.

]]> good point, Pangolin

As a former renter in Berkeley (long ago!) I appreciate the thought.  Helping renters is a big, big problem.  I don't think Berkeley's program is only for the wealthy, I think  a lot of middle-class people own their own homes there, but something definitely needs to be done for rental units -- don't know of any proposals for that, though.

]]> Comment #5 by ciscodv http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/ Wed, 05 Nov 2008 06:55:13 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/5 Renters

This is a good point and a difficult problem to solve as most renters pay their own utility bill for just their unit.  

However, most multi-family buildings have central hot water heating that is maintained and paid for by the property owner.  This type of financing can be used by property owners of multi-family buildings to install solar thermal water heating.  This would reduce natural gas use substantially and, therefore, the owner's utility bill would go down.

It's a start, anyway.

]]> Renters

This is a good point and a difficult problem to solve as most renters pay their own utility bill for just their unit.  

However, most multi-family buildings have central hot water heating that is maintained and paid for by the property owner.  This type of financing can be used by property owners of multi-family buildings to install solar thermal water heating.  This would reduce natural gas use substantially and, therefore, the owner's utility bill would go down.

It's a start, anyway.

]]> Comment #6 by DrOct http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/ Thu, 06 Nov 2008 03:56:09 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/6 Renters not the issue here.

The issue of landlords not having an incentive to install such things for renters is certainly a concern, but it's pretty much irrelevant to this program. Landlords don't have any incentive to install solar panels now.  So we're no worse off in that regard with or without this program. AND we're better off in that there will likely be more people installing solar/wind/whatever the local community decides to support.  (I could also mention that making it easier for people to pay for such things will drive up demand, thus increasing investment, research and economies of scale which will all eventually bring down the price for everyone).

This program is about making it easier for people to pay for installing solar panels.  Incentivizing landlords to install such things on rental properties is more or less a separate issue.  An issue worth exploring, but basically irrelevant to this program.

]]> Renters not the issue here.

The issue of landlords not having an incentive to install such things for renters is certainly a concern, but it's pretty much irrelevant to this program. Landlords don't have any incentive to install solar panels now.  So we're no worse off in that regard with or without this program. AND we're better off in that there will likely be more people installing solar/wind/whatever the local community decides to support.  (I could also mention that making it easier for people to pay for such things will drive up demand, thus increasing investment, research and economies of scale which will all eventually bring down the price for everyone).

This program is about making it easier for people to pay for installing solar panels.  Incentivizing landlords to install such things on rental properties is more or less a separate issue.  An issue worth exploring, but basically irrelevant to this program.

]]> Comment #7 by David Roberts http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/ Thu, 06 Nov 2008 04:15:41 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/7 Also

Won't renewables and lower energy bills be a competitive advantage in the rental market? Couldn't you raise rent on a place with solar thermal water heating and solar electricity? Why wouldn't it be attractive to landlords?

grist.org

]]> Also

Won't renewables and lower energy bills be a competitive advantage in the rental market? Couldn't you raise rent on a place with solar thermal water heating and solar electricity? Why wouldn't it be attractive to landlords?

grist.org

]]> Comment #8 by Jon Rynn http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/ Thu, 06 Nov 2008 04:42:56 -0800 http://www.grist.org/article/berkeley-rules/8 If some of it is free...

...sometimes rentals are "heat included", in my experience particularly in an apartment building, say if it's steam heat and everybody gets it, you can't measure it by apartment.  Although that would be best for solar hot water heaters.

For electricity it would be more difficult, because I've never heard of a rental where you get your electricity paid -- and having the landlord handle part of it probably would make it more difficult -- you'd get a refund monthly? Maybe your rent would go down?  Hard to see how it would work, but as DrOct points out, we don't have to solve all problems at once.

]]> If some of it is free...

...sometimes rentals are "heat included", in my experience particularly in an apartment building, say if it's steam heat and everybody gets it, you can't measure it by apartment.  Although that would be best for solar hot water heaters.

For electricity it would be more difficult, because I've never heard of a rental where you get your electricity paid -- and having the landlord handle part of it probably would make it more difficult -- you'd get a refund monthly? Maybe your rent would go down?  Hard to see how it would work, but as DrOct points out, we don't have to solve all problems at once.

]]>