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	<title><![CDATA[Grist - Comment Feed for McCain calls for $300 million prize for the designer of a better electric-car battery]]></title>
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            <title>Comment #1 by Jason D Scorse</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 04:59:40 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/1</guid>
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				<p><strong>The prize idea...<p>is McCain's first decent idea- he has a few braincells left apparently- good to know.

<p>I teach environmental economics and blog at <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>The prize idea...<p>is McCain's first decent idea- he has a few braincells left apparently- good to know.

<p>I teach environmental economics and blog at <a href="http://www.voicesofreason.info" rel="nofollow">http://www.voicesofreason.info.</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #2 by sindark</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 05:22:26 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/2</guid>
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				<p><strong>Level playing field for whom?<p>What other alcohol fuels are out there to compete with corn ethanol?

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Level playing field for whom?<p>What other alcohol fuels are out there to compete with corn ethanol?

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #3 by greentiger</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 05:40:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/3</guid>
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				<p><strong>re: Level playing field for whom?<p>Butanol for one is being researched heavily by BP and DuPont (and some academic labs I've seen). &nbsp;It even has its own <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel" rel="nofollow">wiki page. &nbsp;One of the big selling points is that it can utilize the current gasoline pipeline infrastructure.</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>re: Level playing field for whom?<p>Butanol for one is being researched heavily by BP and DuPont (and some academic labs I've seen). &nbsp;It even has its own <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel" rel="nofollow">wiki page. &nbsp;One of the big selling points is that it can utilize the current gasoline pipeline infrastructure.</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #4 by sindark</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 06:12:12 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/4</guid>
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				<p><strong>Butanol<p>Does butanol have the same fundamental problems as ethanol, namely that it is made from food crops using hydrocarbon-dependent agricultural techniques?

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Butanol<p>Does butanol have the same fundamental problems as ethanol, namely that it is made from food crops using hydrocarbon-dependent agricultural techniques?

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #5 by Gorsegrower</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:23:25 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/5</guid>
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				<p><strong>Energy prize?</strong></p><p>I wonder who/what will provide the $300 million. If it will take an act of Congress, this promise could be illusory.</p><p>
I'm working on a solution, but it's not a battery. Nor is it a way to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, except by preventing its formation. <br>
It's also not a wondrous new commercially viable ideal automobile, ala X-prize.</p><p>
What's with these so-called offers?</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Energy prize?</strong></p><p>I wonder who/what will provide the $300 million. If it will take an act of Congress, this promise could be illusory.</p><p>
I'm working on a solution, but it's not a battery. Nor is it a way to remove CO2 from the atmosphere, except by preventing its formation. <br>
It's also not a wondrous new commercially viable ideal automobile, ala X-prize.</p><p>
What's with these so-called offers?</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #6 by greentiger</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:26:36 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/6</guid>
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				<p><strong>re: butanol</strong></p><p>Yeah more or less. I suppose you don't "require" 'hydrocarbon-dependent agricultural techniques'; but yeah. I forget the nitty gritty details about the biochemical pathways involved (somewhat more complicated than EtOH (4 carbons vs. 2)), but any alcohol biofuel that I am aware of essentially involves using a sugar feed to a microbial (e.g. yeast or e. coli).</p><p>
Long story short, some people think it will be a more viable alternative fuel than ethanol. &nbsp;I don't know a good way of getting alcohols without using a sugar feed from cellulose or simpler plant-produced sugars. &nbsp;In the scope of 'biofuels', however, I suppose algae-produced biodiesel does not necessitate typical farming practices--just CO2, sunlight, water and some nutrients.</p>
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				<p><strong>re: butanol</strong></p><p>Yeah more or less. I suppose you don't "require" 'hydrocarbon-dependent agricultural techniques'; but yeah. I forget the nitty gritty details about the biochemical pathways involved (somewhat more complicated than EtOH (4 carbons vs. 2)), but any alcohol biofuel that I am aware of essentially involves using a sugar feed to a microbial (e.g. yeast or e. coli).</p><p>
Long story short, some people think it will be a more viable alternative fuel than ethanol. &nbsp;I don't know a good way of getting alcohols without using a sugar feed from cellulose or simpler plant-produced sugars. &nbsp;In the scope of 'biofuels', however, I suppose algae-produced biodiesel does not necessitate typical farming practices--just CO2, sunlight, water and some nutrients.</p>
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            <title>Comment #7 by timbuktu</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:10:30 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/7</guid>
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				<p><strong>Better battery?<p>I wonder what the specific standard will be for the "better battery" that will win the cash prize? Feel Good Cars in Toronto, and a company in Texas have produced a significantly more efficient battery and a battery-like energy storage device, respectively. <a href="http://www.brightfuture.us/new/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=72&amp;Itemid=27" rel="nofollow">See article</a></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Better battery?<p>I wonder what the specific standard will be for the "better battery" that will win the cash prize? Feel Good Cars in Toronto, and a company in Texas have produced a significantly more efficient battery and a battery-like energy storage device, respectively. <a href="http://www.brightfuture.us/new/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=72&amp;Itemid=27" rel="nofollow">See article</a></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #8 by sindark</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:21:31 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/8</guid>
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				<p><strong>Li-ion flaw<p>Hopefully, the better battery will not be prone to catching fire or exploding when heated or punctured.

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Li-ion flaw<p>Hopefully, the better battery will not be prone to catching fire or exploding when heated or punctured.

<p><a href="http://www.sindark.com/" rel="nofollow">a sibilant intake of breath</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #9 by PermieWriter</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:22:31 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/9</guid>
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				<p><strong>Re: Energy prize?<p>What part of "campaign promise" don't you understand? <br>
Lovely idea, though. Even if the government doesn't come through with the cash, I'm sure the promise will spur some budding young chemists.

<p><a href="http://garden2table.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Eat what you grow, grow what you eat</a></p></br></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Re: Energy prize?<p>What part of "campaign promise" don't you understand? <br>
Lovely idea, though. Even if the government doesn't come through with the cash, I'm sure the promise will spur some budding young chemists.

<p><a href="http://garden2table.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Eat what you grow, grow what you eat</a></p></br></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #10 by Delay And Deny</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:35:01 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/10</guid>
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				<p><strong>Science Doesn't Worship The Dollar</strong></p><p><br>
First they torture society by raising gas prices. &nbsp;Then they offer a "prize".</p><p>
The carrot and the stick.</p><p>
But you know what? &nbsp;Chaaaaaaaa...it don't work that way. &nbsp; </p><p>
Innovation and invention are what change economics...not the other way around. &nbsp; We engineers proceed by the inherent pace of technology and discovery.</br></p>
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				<p><strong>Science Doesn't Worship The Dollar</strong></p><p><br>
First they torture society by raising gas prices. &nbsp;Then they offer a "prize".</p><p>
The carrot and the stick.</p><p>
But you know what? &nbsp;Chaaaaaaaa...it don't work that way. &nbsp; </p><p>
Innovation and invention are what change economics...not the other way around. &nbsp; We engineers proceed by the inherent pace of technology and discovery.</br></p>
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            <title>Comment #11 by Pangolin</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:19:10 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/11</guid>
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				<p><strong>and a FREE PONY!!!<p>McCain is doing his best to sound like he has a useful idea without actually proposing violations of the laws of physics. At this point any speech that tells the American public that they will ever see gas at even $2/gal to fuel their giant SUV's should be shelved next to Thomas the Tank Engine and Wild Things in the bookstore. <p>
The petroleum age is over and it will be all we can do to eke out our last gasps of fuel to make it through the transition. So all the politicians run around spouting 'happy talk', Saudi Arabia makes <a href="http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/4202" rel="nofollow">repeated promises to increase production, and the price still goes up. <p>
The cheap oil is gone. All the kings horses and all the kings men will not make that quad-cab, Ford F-250 in your driveway anything more than expensive scrap in a few years. &nbsp;

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>and a FREE PONY!!!<p>McCain is doing his best to sound like he has a useful idea without actually proposing violations of the laws of physics. At this point any speech that tells the American public that they will ever see gas at even $2/gal to fuel their giant SUV's should be shelved next to Thomas the Tank Engine and Wild Things in the bookstore. <p>
The petroleum age is over and it will be all we can do to eke out our last gasps of fuel to make it through the transition. So all the politicians run around spouting 'happy talk', Saudi Arabia makes <a href="http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/4202" rel="nofollow">repeated promises to increase production, and the price still goes up. <p>
The cheap oil is gone. All the kings horses and all the kings men will not make that quad-cab, Ford F-250 in your driveway anything more than expensive scrap in a few years. &nbsp;

<p><a href="http://putcarbonback.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Put  the Carbon Back</a></p></p></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #12 by ThomC</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:42:49 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/12</guid>
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				<p><strong>Other alcohols</strong></p><p>By other alcohols I think he means<br>
-Coal to ethanol<br>
-Gas to ethanol </br></br></p>
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				<p><strong>Other alcohols</strong></p><p>By other alcohols I think he means<br>
-Coal to ethanol<br>
-Gas to ethanol </br></br></p>
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            <title>Comment #13 by GreyFlcn</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:03:15 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/13</guid>
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				<p><strong>Thats stupid<p>Thats stupid.<p>
We already have <a href="http://greyfalcon.net/quickcharge3.png" rel="nofollow">pretty damned good batteries.<br>
The real issue is cost.<p>
And like cars, <a href="http://greyfalcon.net/batterycost.png" rel="nofollow">that price isn't going to come down without significant economies of scale.<br>
_<p>
While McCain's proposal may seem generous, it does absolutely nothing to create a low-risk finance structure to encourage building new battery manufacturing plants, or to create a larger market for purchasing electric cars.<p>
_<p>
"Cart before the Horse" isn't much of a transportation strategy.....</p></p></p></br></a></p></br></a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Thats stupid<p>Thats stupid.<p>
We already have <a href="http://greyfalcon.net/quickcharge3.png" rel="nofollow">pretty damned good batteries.<br>
The real issue is cost.<p>
And like cars, <a href="http://greyfalcon.net/batterycost.png" rel="nofollow">that price isn't going to come down without significant economies of scale.<br>
_<p>
While McCain's proposal may seem generous, it does absolutely nothing to create a low-risk finance structure to encourage building new battery manufacturing plants, or to create a larger market for purchasing electric cars.<p>
_<p>
"Cart before the Horse" isn't much of a transportation strategy.....</p></p></p></br></a></p></br></a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #14 by Biodiversivist</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:42:35 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/14</guid>
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				<p><strong>Will have to work on Obama's ethanol<p>pandering once he gets into office.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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				<p><strong>Will have to work on Obama's ethanol<p>pandering once he gets into office.

<p>In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. <a href="http://www.poisondarts.net" rel="nofollow">Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world</a></p></p></strong></p>
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            <title>Comment #15 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:24:03 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/15</guid>
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				<p><strong>Barack's response</strong></p><p>What advice would you give Barack on a response to McCain's dopey idea, if you were his energy advisor?</p><p>
I would tell him to take the example McCain gives, 300 million, and use it in a better way. &nbsp;</p><p>
Order 100 million dollars worth of plugin hybrid vehicles, to replace government fleet vehicles, from each of the 3 remaining US automakers. &nbsp;Have them use a battery/electric drivetrain consortium to standardize the design.</p><p>
And get US corporations to join in those mass orders to replace their vehicle fleets. &nbsp;</p><p>
We have the batteries and all the technology, so let's get with it. &nbsp;Get that price down with mass orders and mass production so consumers can afford them. &nbsp;No great majical breakthrough contest is needed. &nbsp;Just do it.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Barack's response</strong></p><p>What advice would you give Barack on a response to McCain's dopey idea, if you were his energy advisor?</p><p>
I would tell him to take the example McCain gives, 300 million, and use it in a better way. &nbsp;</p><p>
Order 100 million dollars worth of plugin hybrid vehicles, to replace government fleet vehicles, from each of the 3 remaining US automakers. &nbsp;Have them use a battery/electric drivetrain consortium to standardize the design.</p><p>
And get US corporations to join in those mass orders to replace their vehicle fleets. &nbsp;</p><p>
We have the batteries and all the technology, so let's get with it. &nbsp;Get that price down with mass orders and mass production so consumers can afford them. &nbsp;No great majical breakthrough contest is needed. &nbsp;Just do it.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #16 by amazingdrx</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:29:45 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/16</guid>
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				<p><strong>And</strong></p><p>Get the 300 million from cuts in subsidies for oil companies. &nbsp;</p><p>
Specify a plugin hybrid conversion of existing front wheel drive economy models, with the rear axle battery plugin electric drive.</p><p>
This design allows car makers to produce plugin hybrids with the least changes in production lines and capital investment. &nbsp;It also has the added benefit of being useful to convert used cars, saving time, money, and resources in converting the nation's cars to run mainly on plugin power.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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				<p><strong>And</strong></p><p>Get the 300 million from cuts in subsidies for oil companies. &nbsp;</p><p>
Specify a plugin hybrid conversion of existing front wheel drive economy models, with the rear axle battery plugin electric drive.</p><p>
This design allows car makers to produce plugin hybrids with the least changes in production lines and capital investment. &nbsp;It also has the added benefit of being useful to convert used cars, saving time, money, and resources in converting the nation's cars to run mainly on plugin power.

<p>http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #17 by John former Marine</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:48:02 -0700</pubDate>
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				<p><strong>and the rest of the problem?</strong></p><p>How much of the problem is "cars" and how much of the problem will be solved with a battery? &nbsp;I guess his energy policy is gonna be prize money?

<p>Shu pas a vende.</p></p>
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				<p><strong>and the rest of the problem?</strong></p><p>How much of the problem is "cars" and how much of the problem will be solved with a battery? &nbsp;I guess his energy policy is gonna be prize money?

<p>Shu pas a vende.</p></p>
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            <title>Comment #18 by Solar John</title>
			<link>http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/</link>
			<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:37:01 -0700</pubDate>
			<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grist.org/article/battery-powered/18</guid>
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				<p><strong>Priorities are wrong</strong></p><p>What we REALLY need is to replace the energy we get from fossil fuels. &nbsp;A better use of that money would be a prize for advances in sustainable energy production, such as solar or wind. But I guess we shouldn't expect a politician to know that. 

<p>Solar John</p></p>
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				<p><strong>Priorities are wrong</strong></p><p>What we REALLY need is to replace the energy we get from fossil fuels. &nbsp;A better use of that money would be a prize for advances in sustainable energy production, such as solar or wind. But I guess we shouldn't expect a politician to know that. 

<p>Solar John</p></p>
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